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This character turned the conqueror of the world into a simpering fangirl and if this is also how it's handled in the books, lends credence to the notion that GRRM can't write strong women properly.
So, am I to conclude that you do not believe Brienne of Tarth, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Catelyn Tully, and Cersei Lannister are strong women?
Anyway, Dany isn't supposed to be viewed as a world conqueror, she is supposed to be viewed as a confused teenager that is a victim of circumstance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/02 13:24:40
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Snrub wrote: Dany is meant to be 14? What the gak man?
There is a reason they don't mention her age in the show, but according to the book you have been getting turned on by a 14 year old naked girl getting her boobs squeezed by her brother and then doggy-styled by a grown man.
In medieval times it was quite normal for a woman to be married off and breeding the moment she entered puberty. Even up until about 200 years ago it was not unheard of for 13 year old girls to be betrothed to older men. The idea that people become adults and ready for sex only at the ages of 16-18 is a relatively modern one.
All GGRM is doing is reflecting the realities of those sorts of societies. Obviously for the sake of a TV adaptation the characters have to be aged in order to make it filmable.
11 in the book if I remember correctly, 13 in the show, which is the same age the Actress was when she was cast. I think Sophie Turner is about 17 going on 18 now. She's supposed to be 14 in the3rd series of the show, but she looked older. That’s only going to become a bigger problem as the series goes on.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/02 14:06:00
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
MeanGreenStompa wrote: As someone who refuses to read the books but loves the show, I was deeply disappointed when 'roguish merc smoothy' shows up, after Deny's been so effing amazing at building a terrifying army, burning bad guys with dragons and generally being hardcore, she wilts and goes all giggly and he wiggles his eyebrows at her in the bathtub.
This character turned the conqueror of the world into a simpering fangirl and if this is also how it's handled in the books, lends credence to the notion that GRRM can't write strong women properly. If they just wanted to skip over this 'blossoming romance' and get back to 'the girl who builds an empire', that would be A-OK with me.
Agreed Also don't read the most recent book - its much worse she is turned into a indecisive teen with a crush :( I mean yes it would have worked very well with early days Sansa or Dany but at this point she has (amongst other things):
Abused by her brother, sold to a barbarian, watched her brother die, seen her husband die, raised him from the grave and then killed him herself again, lost her child and burned people alive to her them scream, become the Mother of Dragons and Breaker of chains, been responsible for the deaths of thousands....
There are a number of young and powerful Queens or similar of about the same age in history who are married aty even younger age
Girls and boys of a quasi medievil world are going to have little or any actual childhood - they are groomed from an early age to carry out their duties - whether that be being a devoted constort, bearing children , leading armies or indeed all of these..........thats something the GRRM has got very right.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
The one thing that does bug me mildly about the series:
If Jaime is such an awesome fighter, why the feth is he absolutely useless with only one hand? There are dozens of medieval period manuals on numerous styles of european sword fighting, most of the best fighters would have known how to handle a sword with their wrong hand, especially if their life depended on it...
Yet this guy is completely fething useless without his "sword hand"
If Jaime is such an awesome fighter, why the feth is he absolutely useless with only one hand? There are dozens of medieval period manuals on numerous styles of european sword fighting, most of the best fighters would have known how to handle a sword with their wrong hand, especially if their life depended on it...
Yet this guy is completely fething useless without his "sword hand"
Psychological block in his head?
He can still use a sword in his weak hand but he's nowhere near as skilled
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
This character turned the conqueror of the world into a simpering fangirl and if this is also how it's handled in the books, lends credence to the notion that GRRM can't write strong women properly.
So, am I to conclude that you do not believe Brienne of Tarth, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Catelyn Tully, and Cersei Lannister are strong women?
Anyway, Dany isn't supposed to be viewed as a world conqueror, she is supposed to be viewed as a confused teenager that is a victim of circumstance.
They should be and I think he wants them to be, and as I wrote, he mishandles them.
Brienne is clumsy, quietly besotted with Jamie, pigheadedly loyal and obtuse.
Arya is, at this rate, going to grow up a psychopath.
Sansa... is not remotely strong, she's mind bogglingly stupid and trusting. Oh and she got a wolf killed with her bs.
Catelyn Tully was doing great until she (for reasons I still cannot fathom) frees Jamie and causes the beginning of the end of Rob's chances and the fall of her House.
Cersi is perhaps the weakest of them all, she started off well but she's got a screw loose, can't control (and now lives in fear of) Joffrey, has terrible daddy issues and drinks like a fish.
The only strong woman character I can think of right now in the tv series is.
you can have strong characters of any sex with faults, about every character in Game of thrones has more than their share of flaws, its a lot of what makes the story compelling, no entirely perfect characters.
This character turned the conqueror of the world into a simpering fangirl and if this is also how it's handled in the books, lends credence to the notion that GRRM can't write strong women properly.
So, am I to conclude that you do not believe Brienne of Tarth, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Catelyn Tully, and Cersei Lannister are strong women?
Anyway, Dany isn't supposed to be viewed as a world conqueror, she is supposed to be viewed as a confused teenager that is a victim of circumstance.
They should be and I think he wants them to be, and as I wrote, he mishandles them.
Brienne is clumsy, quietly besotted with Jamie, pigheadedly loyal and obtuse.
Arya is, at this rate, going to grow up a psychopath.
Sansa... is not remotely strong, she's mind bogglingly stupid and trusting. Oh and she got a wolf killed with her bs.
Catelyn Tully was doing great until she (for reasons I still cannot fathom) frees Jamie and causes the beginning of the end of Rob's chances and the fall of her House.
Cersi is perhaps the weakest of them all, she started off well but she's got a screw loose, can't control (and now lives in fear of) Joffrey, has terrible daddy issues and drinks like a fish.
The only strong woman character I can think of right now in the tv series is.
Spoiler:
So, basically, the only strong woman character is the one who'se had next to no appearance in the serie? Who'se had no time to display her flaws?
Everyone you've listed are strong characters. Fighters, survivors, plotters... Even Cersei. A strong female character doesn't have to be excellent at what she does, she just need to do something else than hiding behind her husband and raising kids.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
They should be and I think he wants them to be, and as I wrote, he mishandles them.
Beg your pardon, but I think the problem is yours. You seem to take the position that the only women that are strong, in the relevant setting, are those that lead conquering armies with indefatigable confidence; which is not the case.
Arya is, at this rate, going to grow up a psychopath.
I don't see why that makes her anything other than a strong, female character. In fact, that is the weirdest claim you have made. Not only has she been portrayed as a tomboy from the beginning, but her father provided her a sword instructor.
If strength is indicated by skill at arms, or the defiance of gender roles, then Arya definitely qualifies.
Sansa... is not remotely strong, she's mind bogglingly stupid and trusting. Oh and she got a wolf killed with her bs.
Are you kidding me? She was plainly idealistic at the beginning of the series, but makes no production of the abuse she takes after Ned's death; fully understanding her position.
Catelyn Tully was doing great until she (for reasons I still cannot fathom) frees Jamie and causes the beginning of the end of Rob's chances and the fall of her House.
She was worried that the men, loyal to her son's cause , would kill him in the course of their drunken victory celebration.
A legitimate concern given that she knew at least one of her daughters was held by her enemies.
Cersi is perhaps the weakest of them all, she started off well but she's got a screw loose, can't control (and now lives in fear of) Joffrey, has terrible daddy issues and drinks like a fish.
Everyone has a weakness. In Cersei's case it was Jaime.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Snrub wrote: Dany is meant to be 14? What the gak man?
The Stark, Baratheon and Targaryen children are a couple of years younger in the books. Part of GRRMs historical accuracy drive.
He did that because it is period accurate to have pre-pubescent or teenagers marry and act largely as adults. With life expectancy being seriously lower, people didn't wait to turn 21 to drink or marry. In fact, it's been just over 100 years in which the age of consent has been raised from 12 to 16. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent.
The decision to make the children and teenagers older just avoids the shitstorm of indignant rage that would ensue from having children do naughty things in front of a wide audience, no matter if it is fiction or period accurate.
Think the Kick-Ass actress woes squared and then multiplied by the number of parts. ;-]
Edit: oops, didn't see page 2. silly me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 09:14:49
They should be and I think he wants them to be, and as I wrote, he mishandles them.
Beg your pardon, but I think the problem is yours. You seem to take the position that the only women that are strong, in the relevant setting, are those that lead conquering armies with indefatigable confidence; which is not the case.
I just cited the Queen of Thorns as a strong female character, driven by purpose, not ruled by her emotions, understanding the Game. She is on a par with the Spider, Tywin, Tyrion and 'Lord T**tbeard', strong characters who play the Game and understand it.
Brienne is clumsy, quietly besotted with Jamie, pigheadedly loyal and obtuse.
Absent the infatuation with Jaimie, all of those appellations apply to Ned Stark.
At no time did I say Ned Stark was a strong character, he wasn't, he was a loyal watchdog and none too bright. He was martially strong, morally strong (which made him weak) and not capable of dealing with the sort of shenanigans that the Game requires. He should have stayed in the North.
Arya is, at this rate, going to grow up a psychopath.
I don't see why that makes her anything other than a strong, female character. In fact, that is the weirdest claim you have made. Not only has she been portrayed as a tomboy from the beginning, but her father provided her a sword instructor.
If strength is indicated by skill at arms, or the defiance of gender roles, then Arya definitely qualifies.
She is being ruled by her passions, I could easily insert a Jedi quote here, it can lead her to bad things. If she tempers it and leans then you may be right and she may grow up capable, but as she is, she's going to be a lunatic within a few years.
Sansa... is not remotely strong, she's mind bogglingly stupid and trusting. Oh and she got a wolf killed with her bs.
Are you kidding me? She was plainly idealistic at the beginning of the series, but makes no production of the abuse she takes after Ned's death; fully understanding her position.
That takes a mountain of strength.
I'll give you that one, but then we have her trusting Lord T**tbeard, fawning over Gay Rose Knight and other daft stuff. And she got a wolf killed, which is a black mark against her with me till kingdom come.
Catelyn Tully was doing great until she (for reasons I still cannot fathom) frees Jamie and causes the beginning of the end of Rob's chances and the fall of her House.
She was worried that the men, loyal to her son's cause , would kill him in the course of their drunken victory celebration.
A legitimate concern given that she knew at least one of her daughters was held by her enemies.
She was 'of sterner stuff' til she suddenly did that. It felt like a clumsy plot device to have her suddenly leap to the conclusion that she should let the father of her husband's murderer go free.
Cersi is perhaps the weakest of them all, she started off well but she's got a screw loose, can't control (and now lives in fear of) Joffrey, has terrible daddy issues and drinks like a fish.
Everyone has a weakness. In Cersei's case it was Jaime.
Jaime, drinking, obstinately hating Tyrion, obstinately fawning over her monster son, desperately seeking daddy's approval, more drinking... Cersei is a train wreck.
MeanGreenStompa, you seem to have a very specific definition of "strong" which wasn't really implied when you just said "strong female character". The way that phrase is usually used, all of the characters being argued about definitely are "strong female characters".
Of course, having read the books may skew my judgement there. Not saying I like Sansa, though, still think she's awful. Danaerys is almost as bad, maybe worse.
She absolutely sucks at playing the game, and doesn't even seem to fully realize the role she actually plays in it.
She is quite selfish, which does improve some as the books go on.
She does play the role that society expects of her fairly well though. She knows what is expected of her and she is very good at keeping up appearances.
She does seem to be one of the more caring characters in the setting, with a fair amount of empathy towards others.
She is one of the characters that just seems like she is constantly getting screwed over.
I think Sanda and Daenerys are actually quite similar, although they seem reversed. One starts the series as future queen, and is currently wandering as an outcast. One was an outcast and is now fighting to be the future queen.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/03 15:18:01
Sansa is and remember was in fact trained to be a sweet girl and compliant wife to a important nobleman.
She is not especially bright or stupid but has been dealt a bad hand and is trying to adapt but not very quickly...................
If Joffrey had been a less insane and abuse and her father a bit less stuborn she would likely would have been a "good queen" - ie she would have carried out the role well enough, borne him children and looked and acted the part - much as Cersi did to Robert. You need weak female characters as well as strong ones - same with male characters.............
Ensis Ferrae wrote: The one thing that does bug me mildly about the series: If Jaime is such an awesome fighter, why the feth is he absolutely useless with only one hand? There are dozens of medieval period manuals on numerous styles of european sword fighting, most of the best fighters would have known how to handle a sword with their wrong hand, especially if their life depended on it...Yet this guy is completely fething useless without his "sword hand"
Well to be fair - its not like we actually see (or read) of him actually having many fights so it might be more rep than actuality!?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 16:05:10
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: you can have strong characters of any sex with faults, about every character in Game of thrones has more than their share of flaws, its a lot of what makes the story compelling, no entirely perfect characters.
I've always felt that every character introduced thus far, has been perfect, until they're not.
To me, Sansa is essentially just a vehicle to learn more about Littlefinger. Him being a PoV character or getting too much direct screen time would reveal too much, so we need a proxy.
Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans! DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+
I just cited the Queen of Thorns as a strong female character, driven by purpose, not ruled by her emotions, understanding the Game. She is on a par with the Spider, Tywin, Tyrion and 'Lord T**tbeard', strong characters who play the Game and understand it.
At no time did I say Ned Stark was a strong character, he wasn't, he was a loyal watchdog and none too bright. He was martially strong, morally strong (which made him weak) and not capable of dealing with the sort of shenanigans that the Game requires. He should have stayed in the North.
Moral standards applied publically at personal cost are a great point of strength, you are mistaking failure for weakness, an easy mistake to make.
She is being ruled by her passions, I could easily insert a Jedi quote here, it can lead her to bad things. If she tempers it and leans then you may be right and she may grow up capable, but as she is, she's going to be a lunatic within a few years.
She held it together long enough to travel far with mixed company in disguise. She could pass off as a teenage boy who can handled himself, not bad for a girlie.
Spoiler:
Also she takes to formal training well and with patience and confidence, the faceless men don't just recruit anyone.
Jaime, drinking, obstinately hating Tyrion, obstinately fawning over her monster son, desperately seeking daddy's approval, more drinking... Cersei is a train wreck.
Agreed, to make things worse, she is deluded into thinking she is a shrewd player, not a dumb pawn.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
A point that hasn't been made about Catelyn; she freed Jamie because at that point she firmly believed all of her other children bar Rob were dead!
- They never received any news about Arya. To the Starks & even the Lannisters, Arya is considered 'MIA but presumed dead', though Cersi tries to play-up the lie that they are holding both the girls.
- Bran & Rikon are believed to have been murdered by Theon when he captured Winterfell. No one outside of Measter Lewyn, Osha, the Reed siblings, Hodor & Samwel know that the boys are infact alive. (and Lewyn obviously isn't going be sharing that secret since he's stone dead!)
Cat frees Jamie because she is first and above all a grieving mother who as far as she knows, has in a very short span lost 3 of her 5 children.
freeing Jamie and swearing him to return Sansa to her doesn't make Catelyn weak, simply a loving mother who's world is all but shattered.
MandalorynOranj wrote: MeanGreenStompa, you seem to have a very specific definition of "strong" which wasn't really implied when you just said "strong female character".
Survival instinct, force of will, understanding who to back and who to oppose, not setting your son's mortal enemy and hostage free because you feel sorry for his dad, the same dad who's destroying your forces...
Yep.
Time and time again, it's said in the series, the strong are those who play the Game well, the strong are the survivors.
Well then who is a strong character by your measure then? Not robb because he threw away his rebellion and honour for some exotic tail, not ned because he was too stupidly loyal, not drogo because he was killed by a scratch which he invited (monumentally stupid) not theon because hes a whiny kid traitor.
Pretty much just Tywin?
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
MandalorynOranj wrote: MeanGreenStompa, you seem to have a very specific definition of "strong" which wasn't really implied when you just said "strong female character".
Survival instinct, force of will, understanding who to back and who to oppose, not setting your son's mortal enemy and hostage free because you feel sorry for his dad, the same dad who's destroying your forces...
Yep.
Time and time again, it's said in the series, the strong are those who play the Game well, the strong are the survivors.
Also don't read the most recent book - its much worse she is turned into a indecisive teen with a crush :( I mean yes it would have worked very well with early days Sansa or Dany but at this point she has (amongst other things):
