Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off

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**carlos13th**

They seem to be doing pretty well as far as I am aware. They have created several new ranges since the take over including the Rising Sun Samurai figures and I think they have some kind of deal with DreamForge games too.

**Fafnir**

I can't help but feel awful for the talented people that Tony and Defiance are dragging down with them.

Sure, those egg troopers and mechs may look great, but they probably didn't even pay the concept artist who designed them or the sculptors who put them together. Can't put money towards something when you know that the people behind it won't get paid.

We were all calling this from day one, and yet they somehow still shattered their KS goal. Shame that these people won't learn until it's far too late.

**Eilif**

I really had my doubts about Wargames Factory when they made the ownership switch. It was an ugly event full of recriminations on all sides. Their self-produced stuff still has some shortcomings in my view, but it is better than it was, and the new female zombie survivors are proof of that.

However, I chalk those shortcomings more up to their designers, not their QC or production capabilities. The products they are making for other companies are amazing. Looking at how the DreamForge soldiers and Leviathans have come out, it's clear that they have the manufacturing skills to put out a product as good as anyone in the industry, even Perry (I think they're using Renedra, yes?) and GW.

**paulson games**

Here's you sack of horse manure straight from Defiance FB:

Defiance Games Dewey and other concerned parties. As a business man its unethical to talk about private business dealings in public but since Ken opened the door in public on various forums I'll comment now. During the reorganization of Defiance Games we (The current staff) were given what signed legal contracts and royalty agreements that currently exist. We were told that we had all existing agreements by previous management. I have no reason to doubt that's not the case.
I asked Ken at Proxie models to produce a written contract and if he did it would be honored. Since he didn't have one I decided as CEO to return the remaining unsold barriers and pay Ken what money he was owed for the few barriers we did sell/use. That's it in a nut shell. If Ken has a legal signed document then We will honor it. Since we don't I'm choosing to back out of the deal which is our right. I hope this clears things up. -Gary

The barriers are packed up and sitting by the door. We have not yet had the time to return them. They will be returned and he will get paid for the few barriers we sold/used. We have a lot going on right now.
And for the record, since Ken didn't include an invoice or shipping manifest in the shipment we've been trying to ascertain how many barriers he sent us and how many barriers we've sold/used so that we can accurately pay him what's owed him. That has also taken time. -Gary

As some keen users have pointed out, DG has been sitting on the barriers for weeks and are suddenly only in a rush to return then due to this being brought to light. Despite claiming they have been boxed up for a period of time and weren't being sold, yet the barrers are actively listed for sale on the website.

They claim to have no way of knowing how many of what is sold is hog wash, the company should have their own records to calculate how many sets they've sold of either shipping containers or barriers. A web business claiming they can't make sense of their own internal inventory is a complete smoke screen as you have inventory tracked on both your website and on your payment histories.

Gary did not take over the company blindly, according to their own info release he's been running the business end of the company for some time. Yet suddenly he's "unaware" of the company commiting to buy those items? Do plastic sprues just magically rain down on miniatures businesses in Boston? This excuse of "I dunno what you're talking about" served with a shoulder shrug is comeplete BS.

He makes it sound like he was clueless twit hired off the street this morning, when infact he's been the business manager since this whole pile began. Is he somehow unable to contact Reidy? The guy still works with DG but supposedly just not in a management posistion. Could it be yet another lie like so many others the company has been spewing?

.

**Kilkrazy**

They look like weasel words.

Contracts don't need to be written to be valid.

**Big P**

Thankfully never dealt with them, and certainly never will.

**RiTides**

Wow, that sucks...

Gary apparently forgot what he said in his previous quote:

People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you

-Gary

I completely agree with KK- "weasel words". Not to mention, they said they'd send the items back since they weren't going to pay for them... yet haven't bothered to do so yet.

I wouldn't touch this company with a 10 foot barge pole.

**paulson games**

The order from Defiance was submitted through email.

Gary is claiming he won't honor the email agreement, because "they are not contracts". Should legal action be undertaken I think he's in for a very rude awakening as most courts will validate that email transactions do constitute a formal agreement between parties. While he was acting as defacto business manager prior to taking over the company he seemed to have no problems recieving (and selling) materials from Proxie, but when the bill comes due suddenly the agreement is deemed invalid.

It's shows that this situation is not due to simple miscommunication or a lack of record keeping. He is intentionally trying to dodge his companies debt and profit on materials that are stolen from Proxie models.

**robpace**

Which models specifically are being returned?

**paulson games**

Edited: See post below.

**Shepherd23**

paulson games wrote:
Proxie models had a vendors agreement with Defiance to produce their industrial containers and street baricades.

Proxie sold them on credit and sent them to Defiance as promised. Defiance then proceeded to sell their stock of shipping containers and then when their bill came due they did not pay for the product.

Defiance had recieved the barriers in a later shipment and claims that they will be returning them. Which was said several weeks ago, Even if the barriers are returned they still owe proxie models money for the earlier stock of shipping container models. (A debt of which they are now declining that they owe).

The shipping ccontainer models cannot be returned because Defiance already sold them.

This is not 100% accurate. The shipping containers are produced by Proxie Models for Rust Forge, Llc. Defiance ordered the containers thru Rust Forge and Proxie Models shipped them straight to Defiance Games.

The rest about the money not showing up yet and the Proxie Model barriers is 100% accurate though.

**paulson games**

Whoops my bad. Sorry for the slip up on that.

Point is that they owe and they need to pay for those products, rather than pretend it didn't happen.

**Eilif**

Shepherd23 wrote:
The shipping containers are produced by Proxie Models for Rust Forge, Llc. Defiance ordered the containers thru Rust Forge and Proxie Models shipped them straight to Defiance Games.

The rest about the money not showing up yet and the Proxie Model barriers is 100% accurate though.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll wait until Ken reports receiving his barriers and any $ owed before I give any weight at all to DG's words.

**Grot 6**

What is so hard about digging down deep and adding two parts of give a darn and just up and doing what you said you were going to do?

The Miniatures game industry can't be this... convoluted.

Between the gak figures, and the business model, it IS outright fraud at this point, no matter how they want to spin it. They outright did it knowingly and are now in the mode of "we didn't know..."

Problem here being that the figures weren't brain trust level operations, and just run of the mill regular figures. It wouldn't take much to pull it out and put this right, except that these people are more interested in diversion and doublespeak then they are just doing what they said.

Defiance, knock off the gak and either

or get off the pot and get out of the industry. there are too many companies out there that you are infecting with your disease of scummy business practices.

Step up and stop ripping off gamers.

**Medium of Death**

Models look like gak, their business practices are gak and the people that run the company seem like gak.

No thanks.

Plenty of non-douchebag businesses with decent product to throw money at.

**kenofyork**

Ok, here is a long response that I will post on the 2 other forums where this has bled over in to as well.

1. It seems ironic for Defiance to accuse Proxie of unethical business behavior. I wrestled with this for a long time because I knew it would reflect poorly on me to be seen attacking another company. I also considered it more unethical to remain silent and have others lose out. I made a decision and it seems to have stirred things up a bit.

2. Gary and me pretty much hate each other. If you read my blog you might have noticed a tendency to be a bit blunt. Gary seems to pride himself on his honesty and I sent him numerous e-mails accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. I was counting on this money to pay a major expense and it hurt my family to not be paid. I was angry and he took the brunt of it. The last message I sent him I asked for Tony to come back. Since Tony is blamed for everything from global warming to bad pop songs I think this really pissed him off. Tony is not as bad as he is made out, he was not operating in a vacuum at Defiance, and it is simply outrageous for him to be the sole focus of every problem.

3. All of my business is conducted by emails. Some one sends me an e-mail for an order, I make the stuff and e-mail them an invoice, they pay electronically, and we are all happy. I have never had a signed legal contract with any of my suppliers, or with any of my customers. The standard Defiance is trying to apply is absurd and I wonder how many other people in the industry really get a lawyer and have a legal document drawn up to place a simple order. I sent Gary the e-mails, but by this time we were pretty much done with each other. I called him my sworn foe, a term I have not used since that particularly troublesome NPC in a role play campaign about 25 years ago.

4. I am not getting paid, not now or never. I burnt that bridge, then blew it up with dynamite, then mined the water to prevent fording. Gary is ready to fight it out in court. I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

5. At this point I am ready to call it a day and have a drink or 5. Whatever. Life is too short for all this crap. Anger is not usually a part of my life and I need to get it out of me. So consider the matter closed and I will go about my business and they can go about theirs. People can decide who they want to deal with and who they do not want to deal with. I may look like an ass for exposing this, or Defiance may look like an ass for the way they acted. If I can save one person the frustration I have felt it will have been worth it.

Anyhow, I am finished with this and let's all get back to regular scheduled programing.

**Bolognesus**

I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

Well at least let no one claim you aren't one for tackling problems head-on

(aside from the fact we'd all be jumping for joy if someone like you took over there, already...)

**Cyporiean**

I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

You have my Sword.

**MajorTom11**

It sounds like he will learn just how badly misinformed he is about email agreements... They count. It's in writing, and is submissible and quite binding in my experience.

**Kilkrazy**

Verbal contracts count. It is easier to enforce a written contract because the evidence is clear, however for many people "my word is my bond".

Fraud is a hash term and implies that Defiance Games was set up with the intention of taking money or products and not providing the reciprocal (i.e. not to ship the paid for products or to pay for the accepted stock). I don’t believe that is the case.

I think what actually happened is that bad management has led to a situation in which the company is unable to fulfill its obligations, however, rather than admit that and try to resolve the situation, the management are denying it exists.

The stuff about not paying for the accepted stock without a written contract is bollocks. The management of the Defiance company know damn well if they made a verbal contract for the stock. Why would the supplier have sent it without expectation of being paid? Why did the company accept it without a contract?

**Ramshackle_Curtis**

As it stands Defiance is holding $46,492 from the kickstarter. They owe money to at least one company. As we have seen from all thie rprevious work that the models are bad quality and late. Or that they screw the company they are running up.

I cant imagine that anyone will see the hard suits, or get their money back from the KS. If they do get the hardsuits they will be badly misformed and VERY late.

**Kroothawk**

To be fair, Defiance Games was dubious from the start, after the founder left Wargames Factory with a mud fight.
Dealing with dubious companies of bad reputation is always risky, esp. if you rely on getting the money and honesty.
So this outcome is exactly what everyone in the know (or anyone reading any Defiance Games thread on Dakka ) would have expected. It's like paying Mandelbaum in advance for 3 Titans.
Always sad to see decent people ripped off, of course, but it happens when you trust the wrong people.

**HisDivineShadow**

Cyporiean wrote:
I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

You have my Sword.

And my Bow.

**Steelmage99**

HisDivineShadow wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:
I have contacted Tony and offered to buy Defiance so I can fire Gary. No really I did.

You have my Sword.

And my Bow.

And my (spare) Axe (seeing as I just broke my Axe on The One Ring)......

**agnosto**

Ken, Curtis,

Gentlemen, thank you for you posts and insight into this situation. I don't "have a dog in this fight" because the company's previous business practices coupled with the sudden "You don't like Tony? Well, we have new management." strategy that saw the beginning of the kick starter threw up all kinds of red flags in my mind and I didn't jump in.

I hope that the warnings of two established well-respected members of the community, whose word is actually good for something, will prevent others from being burned.

**carlos13th**

This has come up on their facebook.

Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.

I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary

For all its length it actually says very little.

**HisDivineShadow**

They keep saying 'company wide reorganization'

How much company wide or reorganization can there be if there are four or five people?

And they have repeatedly said 'Tony is out as far as running things' which means he is still involved.

**kenofyork**

Interesting.

If I ever see anything besides words, either money or product returned, I will let the gaming community know about it.

I still do not agree with the notion that kick starter money is separate and reserved for new molds and such. Money seems to be money to me, but I guess they are wanting to start all new.

I may have to go through a corporate restructure soon. My boss is a jerk and so is my employee.

**carlos13th**

Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.

That just sounds like a massive cop out. I dont care how tight resources are that doesn't give you the right to sell someone elses product without compensating them for it. I am also unsure how seperate the kickstarter cash should be consider they offered this as a backer level.

Choose any ONE of our currently available box sets (Imperial Chinese Militia, Aleutian Swamp Worms, Hudson's Bug Drones, Storage Containers) OR... you get ONE box set of UAMC HARDSUITS! Free Shipping in USA and Canada. $5 Shipping Fee Worldwide.

Correct me if I am wrong but it is the storage containers they owe you for right? The ones that they offered as a kickstarter option, kickstarter money that is apparently 100% separate from this issue.

**RiTides**

carlos13th wrote:
This has come up on their facebook.

...
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter.
...

For all its length it actually says very little.

I will acknowledge that it's good that he said he was wrong (he is CLEARLY wrong in saying "I won't pay you for services rendered because legal documentation wasn't in place". Turning over a new leaf... hah!).

But, as carlos points out, this is a cop-out. They offered the storage containers as PART of their kickstarter rewards!

They need to square up their debts with manufacturers before anyone will ever take them seriously. The company "reorganization" means absolutely nothing when the company continues to act the same.

So, good on you Gary for admitting you were wrong (you WERE!). Now, pay back Proxie Models. Otherwise, it's just talk... and gamers aren't going to believe your talk anymore. Follow through on paying back Proxie models, and you have a glimmer of hope of not becoming the punching bag of every joke about bad company practices for miniature companies... otherwise, that fate is almost assured at this point, and your business will never recover.