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A rogue Trader force would be amazingly well equipped, think Imperial Stormtroopers or Vets with Tau or Necron Weaponry.

I would so fight as a Rogue Trader because you can literally do want you want.....Baneblades as personal transports. A Warlord Titan wearing a pair of crassus armoured assault transport as "Roller Skates".

Rogue Traders are Rogues because the rules don't apply!

If you want to do Orks in 30k just use codex Orks, it will be somewhat of an uphill struggle though as legion lists tend to have alot of anti infantry gear as standard, volkite special weapon teams will quite easily kill an ork mob a turn, but on the flip side lack of know no fear means you can run down those large units of marine that you will bear in cc..except world eaters..they sometimes get angrier when you beat them in cc

The Imperial Army will be interesting. I suspect the next HH trilogy will have elements of the Imperial Army (like the frist 3 dealt with the AM) and, maybe if we're lucky, have the Battle of Tallarn...

The best thing about Legion Lists is the lack of ATSKNF. Without that rule, a Legion army plays so dramatically different that it really feels like a completely different army. Suddenly, you want to take that veteran Sergeant for his Leadership value, not his wargear options. You start looking at standards for the morale test bonus and leadership range for your Praetor (or who ever you have for your Legion Warlord). There are units that have Stubborn and Intractable, and even a couple with Fearless. It just opens up a whole new area of game play that most Space Marine players ignore as it just doesn't apply to them.

I'm really trying to push 30K in my area. The Legion List is just a better Space Marine list then C:SM. Hands down. I'm probably just saying that as a jaded and cynical Space Marine player for the last 15 years.

The problem with Legion rules is that Orks would need like 3x the Numbers to win.

My 20 man Tactical Squad, with "Fury of the Legion" would cut down an Ork Waaaghhhh in one furious blaze of Bolter fire. That is 80 Bolter Shots, with some modifiers for hitting, depending on what HQ's or elites. A Veteran Tactical Squad with "Snipers" and an apocathary is very "Rapey".

If I ran 3 x 20 man Tacticals, a destroyer Squad and a Legion Heavy Support Squad of 5 Heavy Flamers, the ORKS would need damn near 5000pts to my 2000pts to stand a chance.

The XENOS in 30k need to be at least double the points to stand a chance, I want to run 2000pts of 30k Legion troops vs 4000 pts of 40k Tyranids, it would be a bloodbath, with some of the extra's like Apocatheries in 20 man Tactical squads, and Legion specific rules for the Deathguard, Emperors Kiddies or the Iron Hands you can kerb stomp the hell out of 40k Forces whilst laughing your ass off.

Realize that 30K Heresy is supposed to be Legion vs. Legion. Not Legion vs. Xenos. I think the Tau and Eldar would be OK vs. a 30K list, but Orks, Bugs, Daemons, and even Guard would have a hard time against a 30K list.

Those people that say "Legion lists are fine against a 40K list" are just plain wrong. Or not really wrong, you just have to be very careful about how you go about it.

@Tamwulf, I was aware of that - I was responding to Formosa and the comment about using CODEX ORKS with 30K.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Realize that 30K Heresy is supposed to be Legion vs. Legion. Not Legion vs. Xenos. I think the Tau and Eldar would be OK vs. a 30K list, but Orks, Bugs, Daemons, and even Guard would have a hard time against a 30K list.

Those people that say "Legion lists are fine against a 40K list" are just plain wrong. Or not really wrong, you just have to be very careful about how you go about it.

Having played 30k vs 30k and 30k vs 40k extensively I can say you are mistaken, 30 on 40 works quite well and it mainly comes down to the list in question, if you go into a game with the intent to power game and take advantage of the abusable units in any codex then it's going to be rough on your opponent, this is why several times I brought up etiquette and discussing the kind of game you want before hand, for example if you were to play Orks at 1500pts to 1750 then the legion list would be at an immediate disadvantage through lack if points to put into certain crucial areas (large squads, aa etc), where as an ork army would be fine at this points cost to a certain extent.

If useing my previous example a legion support squad is taken with volkites then that is alot of points in a unit that could ve easily countered by a battlwagon or dakkajet, both of which arerrelatively few points, the loss of the legion unit would be crippling in a 1500 to 1750 game as its about 25-30% of your army, where as a battlewagon or jet would be a relatively small loss.

30k in my experience is not for competitive play even though it could be made so, the majority of the legion players I have spoken to and know are not interested in competitive play and prefer story driven missions with a gm or playing out the campaigns in the books, I applaud this attitude as I have seen 40k ruined by competitive players telling people not to use this or that as its crap or actively trying to abuse rules.

So if you want to play an ork vs legion list, do so and try to do so in a fluffy way, discuss with your opponent how you want it to work, for example I played a game where my world eaters had to survive the green tide with recycling enemy units, it was a blast and them Orks coming on from every board edge made for a cinematic game indeed.

 mwnciboo wrote:
The problem with Legion rules is that Orks would need like 3x the Numbers to win.

My 20 man Tactical Squad, with "Fury of the Legion" would cut down an Ork Waaaghhhh in one furious blaze of Bolter fire. That is 80 Bolter Shots, with some modifiers for hitting, depending on what HQ's or elites. A Veteran Tactical Squad with "Snipers" and an apocathary is very "Rapey".

If I ran 3 x 20 man Tacticals, a destroyer Squad and a Legion Heavy Support Squad of 5 Heavy Flamers, the ORKS would need damn near 5000pts to my 2000pts to stand a chance.

The XENOS in 30k need to be at least double the points to stand a chance, I want to run 2000pts of 30k Legion troops vs 4000 pts of 40k Tyranids, it would be a bloodbath, with some of the extra's like Apocatheries in 20 man Tactical squads, and Legion specific rules for the Deathguard, Emperors Kiddies or the Iron Hands you can kerb stomp the hell out of 40k Forces whilst laughing your ass off.

So...basically an army built to counter blobs counters blobs? Shocking!

It certainly wouldn't do very well against anything with mech, or other power armies, or shooty armies...It's so built vs blobs that it doesn't do much else.

 mwnciboo wrote:
The problem with Legion rules is that Orks would need like 3x the Numbers to win.

My 20 man Tactical Squad, with "Fury of the Legion" would cut down an Ork Waaaghhhh in one furious blaze of Bolter fire. That is 80 Bolter Shots, with some modifiers for hitting, depending on what HQ's or elites. A Veteran Tactical Squad with "Snipers" and an apocathary is very "Rapey".

If I ran 3 x 20 man Tacticals, a destroyer Squad and a Legion Heavy Support Squad of 5 Heavy Flamers, the ORKS would need damn near 5000pts to my 2000pts to stand a chance.

The XENOS in 30k need to be at least double the points to stand a chance, I want to run 2000pts of 30k Legion troops vs 4000 pts of 40k Tyranids, it would be a bloodbath, with some of the extra's like Apocatheries in 20 man Tactical squads, and Legion specific rules for the Deathguard, Emperors Kiddies or the Iron Hands you can kerb stomp the hell out of 40k Forces whilst laughing your ass off.

Well, I think somewhere in the designers notes for betrayal they did say one probably should discuss with a 40k opponent some tweaks to compensate for age of darkness battles. I'd say it'd be legit to hash out stuff like squadrons for vehicles, bigger blobs, some discounts here and there. Anything to make things fun and interesting, that why we do this, right?

I really need to start reading the books...

 Zuul wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
The problem with Legion rules is that Orks would need like 3x the Numbers to win.

My 20 man Tactical Squad, with "Fury of the Legion" would cut down an Ork Waaaghhhh in one furious blaze of Bolter fire. That is 80 Bolter Shots, with some modifiers for hitting, depending on what HQ's or elites. A Veteran Tactical Squad with "Snipers" and an apocathary is very "Rapey".

If I ran 3 x 20 man Tacticals, a destroyer Squad and a Legion Heavy Support Squad of 5 Heavy Flamers, the ORKS would need damn near 5000pts to my 2000pts to stand a chance.

The XENOS in 30k need to be at least double the points to stand a chance, I want to run 2000pts of 30k Legion troops vs 4000 pts of 40k Tyranids, it would be a bloodbath, with some of the extra's like Apocatheries in 20 man Tactical squads, and Legion specific rules for the Deathguard, Emperors Kiddies or the Iron Hands you can kerb stomp the hell out of 40k Forces whilst laughing your ass off.

Well, I think somewhere in the designers notes for betrayal they did say one probably should discuss with a 40k opponent some tweaks to compensate for age of darkness battles. I'd say it'd be legit to hash out stuff like squadrons for vehicles, bigger blobs, some discounts here and there. Anything to make things fun and interesting, that why we do this, right?

I agree wholeheartedly, have an exalt

I actually like the idea of doing 40k vs 30k games for the Xenos, but given some of the whole Legion rules (like -1S against shooting strength for Iron Hands) makes an above average Stat -line (of a standard Marine) combined with less points cost, the ability to add Apocatharies to units to give 20 man, scoring units, with FNP. Other shocker builds, are things like Spamming 10 Autocannon or 10 heavy Bolter Devastator Squads. The ability to spam three squads of 10 Missile launchers with Space Marine Stat lines just makes it difficult. I do believe some minor buffs, maybe even giving the XENOS 1.5 x as many points and 2x Warlord Traits plus maybe a few extra buffs could compensate.

I think if you were pragmatic you could make this work, I just don't think you can do it straight out of a book, without any modifiers or buffs for the Xenos. For example if I was playing 'nids - Lets call them the MEGA-ARACHNIDS from one of the HH Books. If you went toe to toe using the FW book and Tyranid Book, I would say ....

"Hey to even this out, I propose you have the same points, but two Warlord Traits, and your whole Army gets "Poisoned" claws ?" or maybe "Your entire Army is Fleet " or "Gets Rending" or whatever. For informal games you would need to compensate but there is no guarantee it would be anywhere near balanced (although I'm not sure that GW know what that is either!)

Formosa, do you want help turning this into an article?

Some tips/suggestions/guidelines on how to play 30K vs. 40 would be nice too. That's probably be what I end up doing with my DG vs. Orks and Tyranids.

 Ifurita wrote:
Formosa, do you want help turning this into an article?

Some tips/suggestions/guidelines on how to play 30K vs. 40 would be nice too. That's probably be what I end up doing with my DG vs. Orks and Tyranids.

Well Orks are kinda hosed this meta anyways, what with high rates of shot (Eldar) cover ignoring (Tau).

30K is kinda like a space marine eldar force, where the basic tactical is built to shoot things very well with a bolter, against other armies this kinda fine but against a lower tier like Orks or a non-meta built Tyranids, they will suffer.

I've actually played quite a few games of 30k vs 40k, it's actually an interesting fight to say the least, like a better CSM force.

Formosa wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Realize that 30K Heresy is supposed to be Legion vs. Legion. Not Legion vs. Xenos. I think the Tau and Eldar would be OK vs. a 30K list, but Orks, Bugs, Daemons, and even Guard would have a hard time against a 30K list.

Those people that say "Legion lists are fine against a 40K list" are just plain wrong. Or not really wrong, you just have to be very careful about how you go about it.[u]

Having played 30k vs 30k and 30k vs 40k extensively I can say you are mistaken, 30 on 40 works quite well and it mainly comes down to the list in question, if you go into a game with the intent to power game and take advantage of the abusable units in any codex then it's going to be rough on your opponent, this is why several times I brought up etiquette and discussing the kind of game you want before hand, for example if you were to play Orks at 1500pts to 1750 then the legion list would be at an immediate disadvantage through lack if points to put into certain crucial areas (large squads, aa etc), where as an ork army would be fine at this points cost to a certain extent.

If useing my previous example a legion support squad is taken with volkites then that is alot of points in a unit that could ve easily countered by a battlwagon or dakkajet, both of which arerrelatively few points, the loss of the legion unit would be crippling in a 1500 to 1750 game as its about 25-30% of your army, where as a battlewagon or jet would be a relatively small loss.

30k in my experience is not for competitive play even though it could be made so, the majority of the legion players I have spoken to and know are not interested in competitive play and prefer story driven missions with a gm or playing out the campaigns in the books, I applaud this attitude as I have seen 40k ruined by competitive players telling people not to use this or that as its crap or actively trying to abuse rules.

So if you want to play an ork vs legion list, do so and try to do so in a fluffy way, discuss with your opponent how you want it to work, for example I played a game where my world eaters had to survive the green tide with recycling enemy units, it was a blast and them Orks coming on from every board edge made for a cinematic game indeed.

Please read the bolded and underlined part of my quote again. You are doing exactly what I said- you are careful and discuss the game with your opponent before you play to prevent really bad match ups. You're not going to head to the game store on a Saturday night with your Legion list and play a quick pick up game. Not going to happen.

There are some seriously sick combo's that can readily be abused by any Legion player. I am very happy that you and your game group are having nothing but pleasant, fun games of 30K, for I have not. Then again, I regularly play against Cron Air, Riptide Spam, and six Wave Serpents/Warlock/Farseer Bike Spam and my favorite, Vandetta Spam (nine of them!). If I don't "cheese out" my list, I'd lose every single game, and ya know what? It's not fun to lose every game you play.

Would be nice if we had a 30k section. I'm really getting into it more than 40k.

 Ifurita wrote:
Formosa, do you want help turning this into an article?

Some tips/suggestions/guidelines on how to play 30K vs. 40 would be nice too. That's probably be what I end up doing with my DG vs. Orks and Tyranids.

Yeah that would be great thanks, I'm nearly done testing the last legion unit for my next part of the review, I HAD finished but then book 2 came out haha, thank God I got it done before book 3.

Will upload Monday next week

I think you deserve some recognition, I did a basic article for Flames of War and that was 15% of what you have done for one book! It took like 15hrs,

I appreciate this and look forward to the extra advice and little bits of help this will give to my 30k force. Epic.

Would really appreciate any form of 30k vs 40k article. Everything I've seen about 30k just blows 40k out of the water

Got no problem with taking handicaps for my useless ol' Orks and such.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Would really appreciate any form of 30k vs 40k article. Everything I've seen about 30k just blows 40k out of the water

Got no problem with taking handicaps for my useless ol' Orks and such.

In some cases, Orks are just blown out by quite a few things anyways, what with their very poor placing in even basic tournaments now.

Updated first post, ongoing updates will be added


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Derp; forgot to say, if you all notice any mistakes or want to add tactics or ideas, let the rest of us know ya selfish gits.

Formosa.... You sir. You are a gentlemen and a scholar. I am currently starting my Night Lords army and this review is pretty spot on. The Moritat and the Spartan I agree are the two most broken things in the game. Yet they are still able to be dealt with. 30k I have found plays well against 40k SM against Eldar its all or nothing. Seem like one side gets tabled no matter what.
Anyways great review. You sir deserve a medal.

You might be happy as I am about to upload my review of the night lords units and primarch, hope it helps.

Would it be inappropriate to ask to kiss you? Curze is amazing.
Terror squads.... I'm still figuring them out. I don't know if outflanking is better then drop podding them in.
Night Raptors I have found they need to be a deathstar of sorts. Like 13-15 of them with a praetor and centurion medicae.

THE NIGHT LORDS

Opportunists, that is the night lords way, and the Legion traits show this beautifully, built around the legion army list like everyone else you could be fooled into thinking that all legion lists look the same, well..with there Night Lords legion this could not be further from the truth. There are several ways to take advantage of the stellar Night Lords (NL) legion traits but I will come to that later in the article, first I will cover the traits themselves.

Legions Astartes; We should all he familiar with this by now since I covered it in my previous review, but to recap, you can always regroup if under 25% without need for an independent character, an there is no and they shall know no fear, so you can be run down, keep this in mind as stubborn or fearless units are at a premium in Horus heresy.

A TALENT FOR MURDER.
This trait is very very good, if you outnumber your opponent you get +1 to wound, that is reason enough to take a few large tactical squads with close combat weapons or large assault squads, add in a Moriat with rad grenades and your wounding marines on a 2+, also worth noting that this is also based on if the model is bulky or very bulky, being with 2 and 3 models respectively, this means a 6/7 man terminator squad would outnumber a 10 man tactical squad.

NOSTRAMAN BLOOD
Night Lords are in it for themselves, whilst not cowardly they generally care nothing for there comrades and will always try to live to fight another day, well this trait show that in spades, +1 to fleeing distance and if pinned can also choose to run, the latter part is not that useful in 7th as pinning weapons are very rare, snipers lost the rule and barrage in 30K will likely kill a lot of the unit anyway, but this could be used to fall back away from an unfavourable assault, situational at best.

NIGHT VISION;
Night Lords have night vision??? I know shocked aren't you, this rule isn't very useful in 7th as night fighting is just stealth now, but its a free upgrade so not too shabby.

FROM THE SHADOWS;
All legions Astartes (Night Lords) so not any of your vehicles, gain a 6+ cover save on the first turn (But lose this if a higher cover save is available) and its stackable with stealth from night fighting, this leads me to believe that forge world intended the NL to be an infantry army backed by a few contemptors possibly, large squads with an apothecary attached could prove somewhat durable in the open on the first turn, but not too reliable.

SEEDS OF DISSENT;
If your warlord dies then all your army needs to take a LD test, as like I said before the NL are all about themselves and will run away to fight another day, now bear in mind that unlike normal lords of war (Most at least) Curze can be your warlord and good luck killing him to trigger this rule, that fella is bat-gak crazy!

Now to the part I love to talk about, legion specific wargear, this is some added oomf to make each legion even more unique.

NOSTRAMAN CHAINGLAIVE;
10 pts for this? Wow that's a steal, if it wasn't 2 handed it would be grossly undercosted as it stands now its just bloody good for its cost, 10pts for rending alone is a steal on a 2+ save model (Cos you ARE taking that 2+ save on your Sarges yes?) Add in ap3 and +1 str I'd expect to pay the 15pts each that the world eaters pay for their substandard caedre weapons. Take this on all you assault squads and you can even leave the melts bombs at home…maybe.

TELEPORTATION TRANSPONDER
Remember me saying that deep striking terminators are rare in 30k, well the night lords get it for the relatively low price of 15 points for a legion command squad or terminator squad, independent characters get it for 10pts, terminators are a premium unit in 30k, and most of the time they must walk or use a very expensive transport but its still not something I use a lot, all my mates use apothecaries with augary scanners and each time I tried this I got punished, still it takes the pressure of my advancing assault units. But all in all it can be a nasty surprise for your opponents.

TROPHIES OF JUDGEMENT;
Take this every time, unlike 40k where fear is a laughable joke as most things ignore it or just re roll the result, 30k almost nothing is immune, yes there is a small chance of it working but for 5pts on many IC its a small price to pay, I take it on all IC I use when using NL, as it can swing a combat heavily in your favour, it also gels well with curzes special rules, but more on that later.

The unique right of war for the night lords is a strange one, in 6th it was fairly good, in 7th its kind of men, I'll go through it now and cover the strengths and weakness.

TERROR ASSAULT;
This RoW allows you to extend night fighting after the first turn, not bad when it was used in 6th (to which is was designed for) but NF took a nerf bat to the face and now its just plain old stealth, while it can be useful to move up under the cover of darkness it is not reliable, this part of the RoW allows effectively a 2nd roll to see if the 1st turn is night fighting (in most missions) and to see if it carries into turn 2 and 3. Do not rely on this
TERROR TACTICS;
Terror squads as compulsory troops, yes please, terror squads are pretty damn good form the cost and as troops they are even better, they may still occupy their standard chart as normal but may also be taken as further troop choices so its possible to have up to 9! In your army.
CLAW ASSAULT;
Dreadclaws as dedicated transports..meh, had it been standard pods this would have solidified this as a good RoW, but dreadclaws are not that great for the cost, avoid this unless you like dreadclaws.

Downsides for this RoW are that you can only take a single consul as one of your hq's, no fortifications (Men) an additional troop choice and only 1 of the excellent heavy support choices, see I told you they want the Night Lords to be infantry heavy.

All in all I'd say avoid this right of war, if you want lots of terror squads take them but not as troops, everything this right of war does is outstripped by the angels wrath RoW, hit and run etc. For night Lords fits the theme quite well, and most NL players will probably have assault squads out the ying yang.

Thats me done for now, next is the night lords units review and the eagerly awaited first primarch review, and its a doozy… Till then…fear the shadows my good people.

I've been playing 30k legion (mostly Iron Hands, but a little bit of Iron Warriors) against my buddies Orks pretty much every week for the last 3 months or so, and we've had pretty even win rates.

Most of the time you're not going to be in range to Fury - you cant move, and because of how Charge works it's very rare for them to end their turn within 12 inches of you and not be meleeing your face.

Volkite Culverins are insane against footslogging ork armies, but footslog is rare (and awful) for orks.

We do Maelstrom missions a lot, and orcs are vastly better at splitting off some dinky little boyz/gretchin squad to grab an objective. SM big troop blobs need to be in someones face earning their points back every turn, you cant afford that kind of action economy loss.

Praetors have a pretty rough time with power armor+klaw Warbosses. It's extremely hard to get Eternal Warrior in 30k, and the +1 strength from a Paragon Blade only gives you even odds of wounding so you need on average 12 swings to down him, where as if you fail one invuln save to that claw you poof.
Bigass melee-geared Tac squads with an Apothecary and a Chaplain-Consul are very solid aginst charging boy squads, but are also ~twice the cost for a very similar number of bodies. Unless you chew through them in one round you've effectively tarpitted yourself.

On the whole I have had fun, and not seen anything especially "broken" or "cheesy" with mixing 30k into 40k. I suppose I've avoided some of the more absurd builds (Jetbike Primus Medicae). Maybe I'll give those a go and report back. : )


It can be a little frustrating keeping track of the small changes though. Contemptors are bs5 instead of 4, Fire Raptors come stock with some dinky little s6 missile instead of Stormstrikes, etc.

Sorry for the late part 2 will drop it tomorrow morning

 Nykidemus wrote:

Spoiler:

I've been playing 30k legion (mostly Iron Hands, but a little bit of Iron Warriors) against my buddies Orks pretty much every week for the last 3 months or so, and we've had pretty even win rates.

Most of the time you're not going to be in range to Fury - you cant move, and because of how Charge works it's very rare for them to end their turn within 12 inches of you and not be meleeing your face.

Volkite Culverins are insane against footslogging ork armies, but footslog is rare (and awful) for orks.

We do Maelstrom missions a lot, and orcs are vastly better at splitting off some dinky little boyz/gretchin squad to grab an objective. SM big troop blobs need to be in someones face earning their points back every turn, you cant afford that kind of action economy loss.

Praetors have a pretty rough time with power armor+klaw Warbosses. It's extremely hard to get Eternal Warrior in 30k, and the +1 strength from a Paragon Blade only gives you even odds of wounding so you need on average 12 swings to down him, where as if you fail one invuln save to that claw you poof.
Bigass melee-geared Tac squads with an Apothecary and a Chaplain-Consul are very solid aginst charging boy squads, but are also ~twice the cost for a very similar number of bodies. Unless you chew through them in one round you've effectively tarpitted yourself.

On the whole I have had fun, and not seen anything especially "broken" or "cheesy" with mixing 30k into 40k. I suppose I've avoided some of the more absurd builds (Jetbike Primus Medicae). Maybe I'll give those a go and report back. : )


It can be a little frustrating keeping track of the small changes though. Contemptors are bs5 instead of 4, Fire Raptors come stock with some dinky little s6 missile instead of Stormstrikes, etc.

I cannot exalt this post enough, An intelligently written post that demonstrates that 30K does not just immediately roflstomp all over 40K, even against 40K armies that are not the Eldar or Tau.

Pfft, that's cause no one is using the Invincible Salamander Praetor of Death Incarnate.

Dude is EW, MC Thunderhammer, MC Melta Pistol, 2+/3++, and an extra attack.

I'm just curious to see if or when some sort of Xenos get introduced as a Great Crusade supplement or what-not. That would make, in my eyes, 30k much more appealing than anything 'normal' 40k.