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With only 70 hours to go, some new greens have arrived! I actually like all of these, the Sea Serpent looks great, the Boneneedle is fun, and the Crabman is oh so very old school.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/centerstageminis/tome-of-horrors-complete-ii-more-monsters-from-the/posts/759389

A summary of news for this campaign:

* Stretch goals have been added all the way up to $56,5K where Gargax the Mighty, a limited edition resin dragon, awaits. It'll be sculpted by Drew Williams, who in my opinion did good work on the drakes from ToHI as well as their last big limited edition beast (Tsathogga), so I think it has potential. Really not sure we're going to get that far, though, time is running up.

* A KS exclusive has been added, which will unlock at $34,2 (we're nearly there) and be included for free in the $100 and $200 pledge levels, and as a $10 add-on for the lower levels. It's... the Giant Hamster.

* The $25 and $50 pledge levels are being reworked so that they now will be able to access all the add-ons (that were previously available only at the $100 level). That, combined with the fact that those levels are also allowed to swap the models they get just like $100 pledge, makes them pretty good if you're just looking for a few specific figures. It should also be noted that Matt has said that choices will not need to be finalized until ALL the greens are completed. So a low level pledge is actually quite flexible, you'll be able to pick and choose your favorites when everything is done.

Come check it out people!

So the $34.2K stretch goal was finally reached which unlocked the small creature bundle, sand giant, mummy golem, witch-doll golem and, most importantly, the KS exclusive giant hamster.

Matt also decided to go ahead with the limited edition resin dragon (Gargax the Mighty), so that's available now for $60 (retail will be $150). There's also a separate pledge level if you want only the dragon.

Only 21 hours to go!

I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned here yet, but it appears the funds are entirely dried up for Devils and Demons, Tome of Horrors, and Tome of Horrors 2. I didn't see an official announcement yet, so I suppose it can be taken with a gran of salt, but plans are being discussed in the comment section of the various kickstarters for a backer/company called Mortal Arrow to buy the existing greens, produce the molds, and then offer a dollar for dollar discount (up to 50% off) for backers to buy future products. So if you backed for $100, you'd receive up to $100 off a $200 order.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/centerstageminis/tome-of-horrors-complete-28mm-heroic-scale-miniatu/comments

Prices are being outlined below.

"As promised here are the projected retail prices of some of the TOH1 and D&D pieces. Those listed below I feel confident have the correct costing, so I've little risk giving a preview. To be honest I have no idea of sizes of these pieces. Some costs I find surprising like the Gorbel, Stone Roper and Jaculi, which I think indicates they must be a fair bit bigger than estimated.
* Please remember the offer from Mortal Arrow LLC is a “dollar-for-dollar” match, which is equivalent to a 50% discount off these prices below.*
I look forward to receiving your comments.
Small Pieces from TOH1 range from $3.45 to $3.95:
$3.45 include: Al’ Miraj, Carbuncle, Demi-lich and Forlarren
Medium Size TOH1 minis range from $4.45 to $6.95.
$4.45 include: Iron Cobra, Inphidian (normal) and Huecuva
$4.95 include: Gargoyle (4-armed), Inphidian (Dancer), Inphidian (Cobra Back), Red Jester, Jack O’ Lantern and Daemon (Charon)
$5.45 include: Crypt Thing, Foo Dog, Inphidian (Night Adder Priest)
$6.45 include: Devas (Monadic and Movandic), Death Dog, Demodand (Tarry), Eye Killer and Inphidian (Rattler)
$6.95 include: Demodand (Slime) and Gorbel
Largers minis from TOH1 run from $7.45 to the most expensive piece for $39.95
$7.45 includes: Axe Beak
$8.95 includes: Jaculi and Stone Roper
$11.95 includes: Two-headed Troll
$13.95 includes: Basidrond, Kamadan and Nuckalavee
$15.95 includes: Flail Snail
$16.95: Includes: Purple Worm
$17.95 includes: Gorgimera
$18.95 includes: Shedu
$19.95 includes: Jack-in-Irons
Dragons and Drakes: Glass Dragon ($27.95), Fire Drake ($24.95), Salt Drake ($26.95) and Ice Drake ($32.95)
Froghemoth is the largest and most expensive at $39.95
Here are examples for Demons and Devils pricing from Mortal Arrow LLC. I chose the one’s for which I have firm pricing and are also listed on the CSM's webstore. I was happy to see that my pricing model brings them in at or below CSM’s current pricing:
$31.95 Pit Devil (metal)
$12.95 Glacial Devil (metal)
$25.95 Mammon (resin)
$23.95 Baphomet
$23.95 Rotting Lord
$34.95 Undead Prince and Lashing Prince

There was concern voiced that Mortal Arrow is actually just Center Stage trying to ditch their responsibilities from the campaigns, however Brett Zeleznik from Fractured DImensions posted the following, indicating they are separate people/companies.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/138453512/infernal-minions-of-the-outer-planes/posts/1046192

" I don't usually do this kind of thing and I am / was a little hesitant to even touch on another Kickstarter project / company, but some of the backers are starting to question my friends intentions so I think it is appropriate at this time to speak up and support someone I know as a good and honest man.

As some of you know there have been some pretty serious issues with the three Center Stage Miniatures kickstarters. While I do not know all of the specifics things look pretty bad right now. My understanding is that the current management will not be able to fulfill their obligations with concern to their backers. Enough said about that I think.

Enter, Mortal Arrow, to try and buy up the greens and offer what he considers to be a fair path forward. Now I am not going to offer my opinion on his plan, I am not a backer and it will be up to the backers to decide if his plan has merit or not. What I do want to talk about is the man himself. I have known Mike, yes his name is Mike and he is certainly not Matt, for about a year and a half now. I met him through this Kickstarter. I have to admit I was reluctant to meet someone who I met over the Internet.... thoughts of being kidnapped and having bad things happen to me where in the front and back of my mind. Regardless, I met him and we instantly hit it off.

I have had the pleasure of spending time with Mikes family and he has been gracious enough to have my family over to his house. He is a passionate old school gamer and miniature enthusiast. More importantly he also runs his own business, non-gaming related. I can't guarantee that Mike will be successful running a miniature company but I can tell you that he is an experienced businessman as well as a good man. Other than that I will let each and every backer make up their own mind. Hopefully, this update can at least lay to rest anyones misgivings about Mortal Arrow."

More info is available on the Reaper forums. Of particular note, Enos Kline (vulture) reported he wasnt paid for his work on the lurker above, froghemoth and other sculpts.

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/53433-csms-tome-of-horrors-complete-ii/page-22


So long story short, it looks like myself and any other backers of these campaigns are screwed out of our pledges. If you're willing to put more money in, you might get something back from Mortal Arrow. Personally, I'd be willing to throw in another $20 to ensure I'd at least get a froghemoth, However some of the other sculpts vary pretty wildly in their quality, so I dont know if they'd ever sell enough to warrant springing for the cost of the molds.

I think the only thing to add is that IF the deal goes ahead Matt/CSM will be allowed to buy minis from Mortal Arrow at 'cost' in order to fullfill backers KS pledges

now depending on what the financial situation of Matt/CSM is this may mean nothing, but it does leave him the option to do the right thing if he chooses to do so

Matt/CMS will also retain any casts he's already had made (and delivered to him) which he will be able to use to at least give backers something (again we've no handle on how much except that it's likely to be far less than they are due)

An update has been posted, and it's kind of sounding like the deal with Mortal Arrow isn't going through.

This is in a terrible situation, and I feel especially bad since I was such a vocal cheerleader for these projects. Reading my posts above in this thread makes me feel like an absolute idiot, and I'd like to apologize to anyone I might have persuaded into backing these Kickstarters. I'm in for almost $700 on ToH1 and ToH2 combined, and I've got a feeling I won't be seeing a single thing for that money. It's looking to be my first major KS fail.

Here is the update from their first campaign of this line:

Update 11.11.14
18 comments
1 like
11/11/14

As many of you have surmised, Center Stage Miniatures has found itself in an untenable position as far as overall costs of fulfillment. These difficulties stem from several underlying causes, including unexpected – and unbudgeted - cost overruns in connection with production and delivery and the recent loss of two key investors, due to circumstances totally unrelated to Center Stage Miniatures.

Despite our best efforts to complete several projects that Center Stage has undertaken, those projects remain stalled at the present time and completion and distribution have proven problematic. We are in the difficult position of finding a path forward and are working as diligently as possible to find an avenue to provide equitable value to all of our backers and supporters. While I may be silent here on the boards, your concerns are not unnoticed. I, too, wish for a speedy resolution of the circumstances at hand.

There are several avenues we are looking into.

Most of you by now have read some information about a proposal by one of our largest backers representing Mortal Arrow LLC. While I truly believe that this company has the best of intentions as far as bringing these miniatures to fruition, and his plan does provide substantial value, it does not address all of the problems at hand nor a successful closure to the financial situation at Center Stage Miniatures. That does not mean that it cannot be reworked or revisited, and we will be happy to continue discussion with Mortal Arrow LLC with the hope an agreement can be reached. I am personally grateful for his interest and enthusiasm, as well as his genuine concern for our backers.

Please know that this situation is difficult for all of us, and I appreciate your support in this trying time. We at Center Stage are doing our best to identify and evaluate all options that may be available to secure customer orders and will be in further communication as we try to deliver meaningful solutions to our internal problems. We deeply regret the inconvenience which our present circumstances are causing to so many customers.

Respectfully,

Matt – Center Stage Miniatures, LLC

Trodax this is NOT on you or any other backer who championed this Kickstarter.

Yeah, its really on Matt/CSM. IIRC, they moved twice and tried to acquire a casting facility rather than continue to work with Valiant in doing their casting. That doesn't appear to have worked out, as there's little to nothing in their store currently, and I'd expect their demons/devils line, which was already complete, to be up and running. Odds are he cant even pay valiant to cast more of figures that would sell in order to pay for fulfilling these. Also, apparently from Frog God Games post in update 88, CSM paid them 14k for "licensing", which seems odd. Tome of Horrors monsters are just Monster Manual/Fiend Folio critters updated through WOTC's OGL. Why would CSM need to pay them a license? If anything, I would think it would be to WOTC.

I'm only out $150, so will deal. I feel bad for those who got hosed out of more. Amusingly, my pledge failed due to being on an old card while I was out of the country, so had to ask Matt via PM to pay thru paypal to get back in. So I snatched defeat from the jaws of victory on that one. Maybe we'll manage to get something.

People were ragging on Mortal Arrow for "smelling blood in the water", but frankly I'd rather SOMEONE have the greens on these and be able to produce than them sitting idle. There were a number of cool sculpts in there, and the overall quality had much improved from the Devils/Demons ropey musculature.

It's insane that they could make so much, and be in this position to deliver almost nothing... without another party intervening.

 tre manor wrote:
Trodax this is NOT on you or any other backer who championed this Kickstarter.

Alright, thanks man.

Don't feel bad Trodax, I did the same thing championing that stupid Ice Age one here. We all know how that turned out.

I put a bit into the tome of horrors campaign myself, and am really puzzled by how this all went south. I hope some day that it all does work out. There were a lot of neat oddball creatures that were right up my alley.

A useful post by Toasty over on the Reaper forums about why CSM would have wanted to pay a 15% licencing fee to FGG, and why FGG actually thought they had something to licence (which I had trouble understanding up till now

Toasty

I know this is a bit late but I do have an explanation as to why the products had to be licensed from FGG. The open gaming license doesn't entirely apply to miniatures. The OGL needs to be reproduced in full in any product utilizing it, thus you can see the problem for minis. This is why the pathfinder demons, demodands, devils, and daemons all use generic names in their miniatures incarnation. Vrocks are instead wrath demons, balors are flame demons, etc. Necromancer Games which later became Frog God Games published the Tome of Horrors under the much less restrictive initial version of the license and as such are technically considered to fully own their takes on various old school monsters. Paizo conversel only got in after the revised OGL which was in response to such titles as the Book of Erotic Fantasy. As such FGG can just straight up license their monsters so long as those monsters first appeared in a product under the initial OGL or if those monsters are completely original creations. All of this however wouldn't have precluded Matt from just changing the names and making the minis without the license. He could have simply called flumphs jellyfish men and the wood drake a splinter dragon. He didn't though, and this entitled him to use the actual names and specific likenesses.

So basically FGG ripped CSM off, and screwed us backers out of any chance of at least getting something out of this through Mortal Arrow. They charged 15% for something CSM never really needed to pay in the first place. Sort of like a mob racketeering scheme to con people into fees to use public services.

CSM is sunk, but FGG's name needs to be taken to task.

Nope CSM have screwed themselves and the backers

FGG have some explaining to do about their promotion of the two CSM Tomb of Horrors kickstarters as they certainly implied they were standing behind them too and quite clearly are not going to, plus them shooting down the Mortal Arrow deal (although they may have legitimate reasons for this we've not seen them)

but I do understand the licencing fee now, without it CMS would not have been able to use the OGL names for their minis,

and especially in the RPG minis field GMs will go online (or to a FLGS) with a list and buy a Vrok or a Balor or whatever for their latest campaign.

They are far less likely to bother to look for a 'generic' wrath demon or flame demon (unless the name versions are crazy expensive)

so IF the KS minis had gone on sale as planned having the 'correct' names would have significantly increased at least the number of people who looked at them (and probably because of that, their sales)

I disagree. Basically FGG stole WOTC's intellectual properly through an initial loophole in the initial 3.0 Open Gaming License, and claimed it as their own. They invented jack squat, as those monster names were all ripped off from the Monster Manual and Fiend Folio, and then charged another small business to use "their" IP, which is a joke. They got their money, and screwed the rest of us out of a chance to get anything from Mortal Arrow. So seriously, feth those vultures.

I do think CSM benefitted quite a bit from having a direct connection to FGG and their Tome of Horrors; for one thing, the license did let them use the artwork straight from the book.

But in retrospect, when everything has gone south, and all the money seems to have been spent before CSM has even managed to completely fulfill the first of the three Kickstarters, a 15% licensing fee seems to be quite a bit of money to me. I mean, Kickstarter/Amazon take 10%, another 15% to FGG, fantastic deals for the backers; it just seems there couldn't have been any kind of margins here and this was just destined to fail.

I'm not sure I'd put that much blame on FGG for taking the money, but it does seem to me, as FGG does not make miniatures themselves, that having someone else produce a range of miniatures for their monster book should only be a positive thing, and the CSM Kickstarters where free marketing for them (they even sold ToH pdf's through the KS). Basically, I think CSM should have been able to negotiate a better deal where the licensing fee was just a token sum, rather than a 15% chunk.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
I disagree. Basically FGG stole WOTC's intellectual properly through an initial loophole in the initial 3.0 Open Gaming License, and claimed it as their own. They invented jack squat, as those monster names were all ripped off from the Monster Manual and Fiend Folio, and then charged another small business to use "their" IP, which is a joke. They got their money, and screwed the rest of us out of a chance to get anything from Mortal Arrow. So seriously, feth those vultures.

Necromancer Games received permission from WotC to use the monsters from the first edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - it was a coordinated effort, with little to do with the OGL.

This is also why, if you actually read the Tome of Horrors you will find that each of the entries pertaining to first edition monsters cites the source and that the entry is by permission of Wizards of the Coast.

Frog God did not steal from Wizards - the had a license that was separate from the OGL.

This also means that when a 3PP uses an entry from Tome of Horrors it is listed separately from the rest of the OG content.

This is all a matter of public record - I encourage you to do the research.

The question is whether Frog God had the rights to further licensing in any form - to license the miniatures for creatures that they had in turn licensed from WotC.

No fething of anybody is either required or desirable.

CSM stretched its resources further than they had planned for, and fell short. A small miniatures company is not a high profit investment.

The Auld Grump

A bit more info has been posted on the Reaper forum thread on this

Psionicist Posted Yesterday, 09:13 PM

Another piece of info is that this Bankruptcy may take a while. If Matt is truly broke I dont know how he is going to come up with the Bankruptcy filing costs. I'm glad that the people with Discover are getting their money back.

From the communication I received from the lawyer he retained (the underlining is mine):

"I am presently waiting for Mr. Solarz to provide me with billing statements from all institutional creditors and a comprehensive list of names and addresses of all customer deposit creditors, along with tax returns, bank records, and other financial documents. The Bankruptcy Trustee will insist on production of all relevant business and financial records, thus this all must be obtained and organized both so that it may be provided to the Trustee and also so that the Petition and Schedules may be accurately completed. I am uncertain exactly when the case will be filed, but anticipate it should be within several weeks or less. Moreover, Mr. Solarz needs to raise the Court costs and attorney fees, a portion of which has already been paid with help from family members, inasmuch as he does not have sufficient cash available to him.



Initially, Mr. Solarz wanted me to examine a possible sale of assets and assumption of liabilities by another entity. It was only after reviewing this alternative possibility last week and determining that it would not “sole all the problems”, that Mr. Solarz reconciled himself to my recommendation that Chapter 7 was inevitable. I can tell you that he was not at all enthusiastic about Bankruptcy and wanted to make every possible effort to avoid it. Perhaps some business entity may be willing to purchase the inventory, molds, and the customer list/goodwill of this business for a significant enough sum from the Bankruptcy Estate to warrant a meaningful distribution to creditors.



When the Bankruptcy case is filed, all creditors will receive notice in the mail of the date set for the “debtor’s examination” and other terminal dates. You may attend the Debtor’s examination or you may review the Petition once filed. It is public record and It will disclose all assets and all creditors. "

I Hope Mortal Arrow can chime in with more info now that the cat has been out of the bag. The annoying part is that backers had to find this out from a backer, not Matt, and it kind of irks me that although I know you guys deserve to know what's going on, it removed another responsibility from Matt, who could of at least shouldered this with some dignity.

The benefit is I kind of feel a survivors bond with the rest of you (and those active on the page as well) and now that a few folks have filed with the Ohio Attorney General, we should get info more readily. Matt might be full of crap, but I doubt his attorney would want to deceive the AG.

And here is exactly why I no longer back KS projects. It is far too much of a lottery. It is only the big companies I back, such as Reaper, which conversely are probably the ones that could do it on their own without KS.

Another of the sculptors for these has commented on the Reaper forums

Nicolas Genovese

I don' know how Mortal Arrow plans to sell the greens that arent licensed to them. All of the stuff i sculpted for CSM was word of mouth contracted so there is no contract and it was agreed as long as CSM is in business he could produce them. I own all of the greens and have them. I have yet to hear anything from anyone on this even after emailing Matt multiple times. Sorry for all of you backers this is one massive scheme and it doesnt look good. Matt is a good guy I think he just made a few major mistakes with cost of production. I'm sure it has hit him hard as he had great expectations of CSM's future and dumped everyting into it. I am saddened to see this happen.

Nicolas Genovese

I will tell you that half of the TOH2 greens I made, I still hold. They were never paid for, im considering casting them up for myself at this point.

I have that as well.... I may boot my own shop up next year and unload all of the greens i have on my desk

so yet more questions about where the money went if yet another sculptor wasn't paid

and the possibility that at least some of this may actually show up elsewhere which will at least make them available for those who want them

Old thread, I know. However I just received a bankruptcy notice today from the state of Ohio for both Matthew solarz as an individual and center stage miniatures as a company. Proceedings to occur on May 26th in Ohio. I'm not close enough to attend but maybe someone is.



Edit, grammar.

Where can I purchase these miniatures from?

Ebay for some of them as some people got hold of some stuff

the company is going bankrupt after failing to deliver on its KSers

Re-posting so positive news from the Reaper forum (although sadly not from CSM themselves)

bbarsh

Posted Today, 02:00 AM


Talk about timing. I came to this forum to post some information regarding the Demons & Devils KS. Pacesetter Games & Simulations produced a module for CSM that was to be distributed to all backers (at some level, I suppose). Unfortunately, it seems more than a few backers have not received their pledges. Pacesetter owns the rights to the module in question, CSM7 The Darkest Pit. This module is set for release as D5 The Darkest Pit at the upcoming North Texas RPG Con. However, I am not exactly thrilled that I will be selling a module that a group of KS backers were supposed to receive, and have not. Note, Pacesetter has nothing to do with the KS - the module was produced and sent to CSM for future considerations (not going to happen). What I have done is upload a PDF of the module to the pacesettergames.com website for backers to download for FREE. Just select the module and be sure to enter PDF under shipping option. There is no charge. Note, I have no way to distinguish KS backers, so there it is.

I have also sent an order into my printer for print copies - the KS version. I will bring these hard copies with me to all the conventions Pacesetter will be attending. Just come to the booth and let me (or whoever is running the booth) that you are a Demons backer and you will get your print copy, again, at no charge. For those that need them shipped, I am working on a plan. I have no idea who has not received them. While I will pay to have them printed, I have to figure out shipping - I really don't want to charge anyone for shipping.



Pacesetter has produced four other modules for CSM; three digest modules and one full-size module. The digest modules are a five part series that feature a giant type. So far fog, cloud and frost giants. The modules were produced for CSM who sold and distributed them. The full size module, U1 Dark Eye of the Hurricane, was produced in 2012 and was also sold and distributed by CSM. Again, these products were made based on future considerations. Pacesetter retains all copyright and IP rights. Right now, the final two digest modules are complete as are the final two modules in the U-series. I have not decided on how to move forward at this point. Most likely, they will just be added to the Pacesetter product line without miniature accompaniment.



On a personal side, I backed the CSM KS(s).



Unfortunately, I really do not have much so share on the entire KS debacle. CSM made some terrible mistakes. Those mistakes were fatal to its operations and bankruptcy is the path. It really is that simple. But bankruptcy is not necessarily the end of the line. I believe the assets (CSM) will be sold in one lump sum via a bidding process. It is what happens after that which is now the only thing that really matters to backers. But your guess is as good as mine on how that affects backers.

so a big thumbs up for Pacesetter, anybody interested in this sort of old school rpg action should at least check them out as its good to reward companies that do the right thing when they don't have to