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I have literally no idea what you are trying to say

 derek wrote:
For Khador, the things that stand out to me are Assault Kommandos, and the Marauder. In fact I can't even remember the last time I saw a Marauder on the table. The Kommandos have some niche use, but they're far outshined by Kayazy, IFP, Winter Guard of both variety, and Cylena and her Nyss which show up so much in Khador they may as well give them a red bordered card.

Really? The Marauder is probably one of the better Warjacks in Khador, just for the targeted slams. Slambot duty has moved a bit towards the clamjacks, but being able to pick your angle on a slam with PnS 20 is pretty damn awesome.

 Surtur wrote:
I have a feeling battle engines would see more play if their HP was more towards warjack levels ie:30ish rather than 20ish. As it stands, a stern look can knock a 9 point model off the board without too much investment. PP did well in ensuring battle engines didn't break the game, but they did too good a job at it where the meta didn't shift much at all.

I dunno some are better than others. The Protectorate Battle Engine is crazy good. I'd probably still play the vessel if it had a good 4 or 5 health less than it does now. At 30+ boxes it'd be pretty much an auto-include in every list, in doubles for certain casters.

 Surtur wrote:
I have a feeling battle engines would see more play if their HP was more towards warjack levels ie:30ish rather than 20ish. As it stands, a stern look can knock a 9 point model off the board without too much investment. PP did well in ensuring battle engines didn't break the game, but they did too good a job at it where the meta didn't shift much at all.

Yes please, make my Vessel of Judgement even better

But you are correct in that Battle Engines, and to an extent Colossals/Gargs, are lacking in some ways. At least certain BEs and Colossals are. Point costs are off on several of them.

Skorne battle engine is a bad joke. Seriously, scrap it and build it up again from the ground up(or replace it with the league version that actually worked)

Aside from that, none of the BEs have design flaws. Just probably a point too expensive except for the Vessel of Judgement.


Colossals on the other hand are where problems lie.

Stormwall, 2 points too cheap. It basically made any of the Cygnar jacks that aren't equally as bonkers pointless.

Mountain King, too expensive. And Mat5? Really PP? Mat5?

Archangel, too squishy for its cost. At least make it faster.

Woldwrath, too expensive for all the restrictions it comes with(can't be healed by Warlock, can't be targeted by friendly spells, can't receive any of the good Circle animi) but aside from that its ok.

The Mountain king's stats really baffled me. I can understand a slightly lower strength stat and maybe even armor stat to compensate for easy access to those buffs but an MAT of 5 is just silly. Maybe they wanted to gear it towards only killing khador/dwarf/colossal?

And Trolls have only 1 real Mat buff too, and its an Animus of a character beast too.

I could see it if Trolls had the Gorax(but its still silly to deliberately Frenzy a model as expensive as a Gargantuan)

The thing about the some of the weaker jacks is that the gun mages officer's attack types fit perfernctly with them. Avenger for example get a boost for its poor RAT and the range can be increased to a great "14".

 Laughing Man wrote:

Really? The Marauder is probably one of the better Warjacks in Khador, just for the targeted slams. Slambot duty has moved a bit towards the clamjacks, but being able to pick your angle on a slam with PnS 20 is pretty damn awesome.

I think it's moved more than a bit. I watch and read a lot of battle reports, and tournament reports, and I can't even recall the last time I saw a Marauder in any of them. If a player is running any non character/non Conquest warjacks, it is likely a Spriggan or a Devastator, and I suspect when the Grolar is released it will just give Khador players one more reason not to bother with the Marauder. Ram Piston is good, no doubt, but not good enough to include it over Khador's other choices.

Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

You'd probably see a lot more variety in what jacks are brought in Khador lists if they could run more than one effectively in any list they wanted. All their jacks tend to be focus hogs in a faction that is very greedy for focus.

When you can only really run one, maybe two, jacks at most you tend to go with the best choice available. Pow20 slam on a stick is nice, but its really all the Marauder brings. The Clam jacks bring an Arm25 mobile wall, anti-infantry hate, as well as the potential for slams.

 sing your life wrote:
Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

Why do you hate the decimator? He just wants to love. He'll give you kisses with his chainsaw until you fall over!

 Surtur wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

Why do you hate the decimator? He just wants to love. He'll give you kisses with his chainsaw until you fall over!

Something about being 9 pts for a RNG 10 gun on a RAT/MOV. Essentially a worse defender.

 sing your life wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

Why do you hate the decimator? He just wants to love. He'll give you kisses with his chainsaw until you fall over!

Something about being 9 pts for a RNG 10 gun on a RAT/MOV. Essentially a worse defender.

This is the point where I would go for style over substance - A freaking chainsaw and that awesome looking gun is hard to turn down to me, even if it isn't my best available choice.

Same thing with a caster like Darius. He might not be very powerful outside Stormwall lists, but I just can't resist the idea of a regular mechanic in an ironhead armour.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

Why do you hate the decimator? He just wants to love. He'll give you kisses with his chainsaw until you fall over!

Something about being 9 pts for a RNG 10 gun on a RAT/MOV. Essentially a worse defender.

This is the point where I would go for style over substance - A freaking chainsaw and that awesome looking gun is hard to turn down to me, even if it isn't my best available choice.

Same thing with a caster like Darius. He might not be very powerful outside Stormwall lists, but I just can't resist the idea of a regular mechanic in an ironhead armour.

Plus he does have substance, POW 15 ROF 2 & beatback on the gun and sustained attack P+S 18 rip saw.

 ChaoticMind wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Even if the marauder sucks, i would still certainly take it over a decimator.

Why do you hate the decimator? He just wants to love. He'll give you kisses with his chainsaw until you fall over!

Something about being 9 pts for a RNG 10 gun on a RAT/MOV. Essentially a worse defender.

This is the point where I would go for style over substance - A freaking chainsaw and that awesome looking gun is hard to turn down to me, even if it isn't my best available choice.

Same thing with a caster like Darius. He might not be very powerful outside Stormwall lists, but I just can't resist the idea of a regular mechanic in an ironhead armour.

Plus he does have substance, POW 15 ROF 2 & beatback on the gun and sustained attack P+S 18 rip saw.

Holy feth, I didn't know that. That would be neat with assault!

They work decent with harkevich

It would also be neat with something other than RAT 4... It has solid hitting power but you have to spend resources to either set it up with a KD/stationary target or burn focus to boost atk rolls. If it was RAT 5 or 6 or less points...I would consider it more outside Harkevich/pSorscha lists. Maybe Karchev could make use of it with his spray KD.

That is the main problem with all ranged Khador jacks. They have abysmally low Rat, and very little Focus to use to boost. Toss it on top of an attack with multiple RoF and no AOE and its even less focus efficient.

Plus PP seems to have overcosted all the ranged Khador jacks that aren't Behemoth.

Yeah, I dont really understand why khador ranged jacks are burdened with lower RAT than...literally all other ranged jacks of all other factions, on top of having zero access to any way to improve it (besides aiming/boosting). I feel like we are forced into melee options and have no chance at a ranged game using a warjack. I want to have at least one ranged option that can just provide range support for the infantry wall such as a defender, or hunter, or vanquisher, or avalancher or all those other jacks that all the other factions have.

I think we have covered most of the models that rarely get used. Now does anyone know if PP is planning to do anything about it?

KingKodo wrote:
Yeah, I dont really understand why khador ranged jacks are burdened with lower RAT than...literally all other ranged jacks of all other factions, on top of having zero access to any way to improve it (besides aiming/boosting).

Um, Khador has access to stationary, signs and portents, icy grip, knockdown, spriggan flares and Gorman.

I don't even play Khador, and that is just from a quick looksies over some of their casters and models. So yeah, they have ways to improve their accuracy on their jacks.

Stationary usually relies on Crits from a jack or caster, Icy Grip only has RNG 8, and the Spriggan is 10 points and flares are a 3 inch AOE completely within 10 inches. Knockdown usually requires a jack with focus, or a spell of RNG 10 or less. Not really good choices in Khador.

I admit that Signs and Portents is awesome on anything (even a pair of drunk Winterguard), and Gorman is always useful but both are Characters and usually have something better to be doing than helping a jack hit. The only aid we really can rely on Is Greylords and Ice Cage for -2 DEF and stationary if 3 land on one model.

I don't see how any of those problems are actual problems. Things have ranges and 10 inches isn't bad.

 ChaoticMind wrote:
Stationary usually relies on Crits from a jack or caster, Icy Grip only has RNG 8, and the Spriggan is 10 points and flares are a 3 inch AOE completely within 10 inches. Knockdown usually requires a jack with focus, or a spell of RNG 10 or less. Not really good choices in Khador.

I admit that Signs and Portents is awesome on anything (even a pair of drunk Winterguard), and Gorman is always useful but both are Characters and usually have something better to be doing than helping a jack hit. The only aid we really can rely on Is Greylords and Ice Cage for -2 DEF and stationary if 3 land on one model.

Read the quote I was responding to. He said Khador has "zero access" to ways to increase accuracy other than boosting and aiming. That is very far from the truth.

Also, for spell ranges you can get Sylys. And frankly, all factions deal have some awesome 8" range spells.

I'm not saying that all this means that you should take tons of shooty Khador jacks. Khador has much better things to take. But saying that MAT 4 kills them and they have no way to work around it is BS. Behemoth and Conquest are both often used as shooting platforms from my experience. And being on the receiving end of that I can tell you it can be effective.

The problem with the short ranges is that it means your caster is sitting awfully close to the enemy or your using 2 jacks to kill something.

Sylys is an option I didn't know of as I haven't really looked at him.

Behemoth has 2 interdependently firing RNG 14 POW 14, 3 inch aoe guns and the Conquest is loaded with guns. The others are relying on single guns and paying a heavy cost for them. The clam jacks work around this by being able to use theirs in melee but for the basic chassi needs more than focus.