Where does the new AM codex rank?

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**ClockworkZion**

Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta is far, far, FAR from being overpriced. It has three lasguns. TL. Three. Lasguns. On top of being a flyer and thus having superior defense. I would gladly pay 170 pts for such a model to include in my army. Even with 0 transport capacity.

I was referring to the Ghost Ark in my previous post.

I think you mean "Lascannons" not "Lasguns".

**Sigvatr**

Ninja'd!

**greatbigtree**

Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta is far, far, FAR from being overpriced. It has three lasguns. TL. Three. Lasguns. On top of being a flyer and thus having superior defense. I would gladly pay 170 pts for such a model to include in my army. Even with 0 transport capacity.

I was referring to the Ghost Ark in my previous post.

Sweet Mother of God, your Night Scythe puts a Vendetta to shame when it comes to flyer-hunting points efficiency. It has a transport capacity of 15 Necrons, and any troop choice you put in is more survivable as an objective grabber. Further, it is a Dedicated Transport.

You can believe a Vendetta is undercosted / fairly costed if you wish, but don't piss and moan when you can run Night Scythes!

**Sigvatr**

Let's compare long-ranged weaponry then, like...the Doomsday Ark vs...pretty much...everything IG has.

My point is not that one army is superior to another. Far from it. The thing is that every armor has flaws or strengths in certain areas and IG is no exception to this. First of all, you do not lack any fast transport, as the Vendetta still is a fast transport, whether you like its balanced cost or not, but you merely perceive it as being overpriced. That's a (perceived) lack in mobility. On the other hand, IG still excels at long-ranged, high AP shooting, an area other armies can hardly even cover. Enter Necrons. For example.

Just compare the common cost of lasCANNONS (

) in other armies, add those cost together and compare to the current Vendetta. It's still a steal points-wise.

**TheKbob**

Few things...

SoB have outflank in the form of Dominions.

The Ghost Ark is one of the best transports in the game only outshown by the Night Scythe because it's cheap as chips. An Av13 Open Topped Skimmer with an always on save and 4HP has never proved me wrong when I played Necrons. Run 2~3 with Imotek and laugh as you advance under the shroud of darkness (and Av13 with a 2+ or 3+ cover save if you use terrain to your advantage

).

The points increase to the Vendetta, along with the Chimera, has made have to rethink my allied detachment(s) for my SoB since we have not dedicated AA. That extra 40 points and reduction of tactical flexibility (i.e., fast troops!) makes it less desireable. If all I wanted was a gunboat, I'd go for the Avenger Strike Fighter now... but no one allows FW. :/ IG still have dedicated AA with it, but it's less desirable. Plus, the Hydra kinda sucks. The Space Marines guppy or the night scythe are probably the best flyers, still. The Storm Raven is probably third and then the Vendetta. All assuming that Heldrake is still the king of donkey cave flyers.

As for the IG codex overall, they made the book entirely self sufficient with orders and divination. You have an answer for everything, including melee with 50 fearless conscripts to bubble wrap your army. You can now play Tanks! Tanks! Tanks! and the Pask Punisher™ is sure to be a hit (or 15+ hits and 3~ Rends on average). It's great, but not a meta breaker. I don't see any broken power house combos, but that doesn't mean something isn't lurking in all those ICs lurking in the book. Fearless conscript blob with 4++ saves and rerollable everything in close combat may be the new hotness, though. Or using 6 Wyverns to pound deathstars into the ground by going first and just forcing saves out the ass on the support elements.

Also, bring Coteaz for seize control. If you bring lots of tanks/artillery, you want to level your opponent ASAP.

**ClockworkZion**

Sigvatr wrote:
Ninja'd!

Yup!

**Martel732**

sing your life wrote:
It's a middle of the road that gets a few extra pints for having some counters to the more OP stuff out there.

AtoMaki wrote:
the Fast Attack is still about the Vendetta .

Funny, because not everyone thinks Vendetta is worth the points now.

Well, then, the Stormraven must have been true garbage all along, then.

**ClockworkZion**

TheKbob wrote:
SoB have outflank in the form of Dominions.

Who aren't scoring most of the time, and negating the better method of scouting them straight up and murdering enemy tanks or heavy transports early in the game. Outflank isn't really the best use for them most of the time honestly.

**TheKbob**

ClockworkZion wrote:
TheKbob wrote:
SoB have outflank in the form of Dominions.

Who aren't scoring most of the time, and negating the better method of scouting them straight up and murdering enemy tanks or heavy transports early in the game. Outflank isn't really the best use for them most of the time honestly.

Determines on the enemy and deployment. More static elements may benefit better from an outflanking unit to apply pressure.

When I want my enemies to ball up in the center, having two units outflank can make buttholes pucker. Yes, scouting them is great, but can serve it's purpose quite well.

I've done some creative tricks like outflank and then tank shock backfield units upon entry and run them off the board. 4 Melta guns? That won't kill my cheap gribbl... OH GOD THEY RAN?!

**ClockworkZion**

TheKbob wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
TheKbob wrote:
SoB have outflank in the form of Dominions.

Who aren't scoring most of the time, and negating the better method of scouting them straight up and murdering enemy tanks or heavy transports early in the game. Outflank isn't really the best use for them most of the time honestly.

Determines on the enemy and deployment. More static elements may benefit better from an outflanking unit to apply pressure.

And if Sisters could manipulate their reserves I'd agree, but with an inability to get them in early enough to make it work properly I'm less sold on the idea.

TheKbob wrote:
When I want my enemies to ball up in the center, having two units outflank can make buttholes pucker. Yes, scouting them is great, but can serve it's purpose quite well.

I've done some creative tricks like outflank and then tank shock backfield units upon entry and run them off the board. 4 Melta guns? That won't kill my cheap gribbl... OH GOD THEY RAN?!

Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I never got a lot of success out of it and I have trouble committing to stuff being in reserves as a Sisters player because of the lack of Reserves manipulation and the issue of needing all the available firepower on the table I can bring from Turn 1 or else the list is severely weakened. Sisters just don't get as many toys to throw around as some other armies and have to basically double down on the good stuff to work well and that's an issue that has heavily influenced my playstyle.

**TheKbob**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I never got a lot of success out of it and I have trouble committing to stuff being in reserves as a Sisters player because of the lack of Reserves manipulation and the issue of needing all the available firepower on the table I can bring from Turn 1 or else the list is severely weakened. Sisters just don't get as many toys to throw around as some other armies and have to basically double down on the good stuff to work well and that's an issue that has heavily influenced my playstyle.

Which I'm looking to IG to offset that always, but the points changes hurt them as allies, a bit. I will mess around with it, mainly for Primarus Psykers. I wish there was a better HQ choice, but I may be dropping an Exorcist to get a Pask Punisher w/ friend, Vendetta, and Vets. I wish the SoB just got something like Stormtroopers with Vendettas added in a la Witchhunters to make them a "full" codex. That glaring gap makes it really sad. I guess I could get a Stormwing Formation, but that's 475~ points for three flyers. Seems kinda cheesy, even though I could kit bash them into Sisters Flyers. Rather have codex approved Avengers.

As a singular book, IG is pretty good, it's just allies will be screwy. I see some potentially broken stuff coming from Space Marines abusing those priests for rerolling everything. TH/SS with reroll to hit, to wound, and saves? Ick...

**ClockworkZion**

TheKbob wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. I never got a lot of success out of it and I have trouble committing to stuff being in reserves as a Sisters player because of the lack of Reserves manipulation and the issue of needing all the available firepower on the table I can bring from Turn 1 or else the list is severely weakened. Sisters just don't get as many toys to throw around as some other armies and have to basically double down on the good stuff to work well and that's an issue that has heavily influenced my playstyle.

Which I'm looking to IG to offset that always, but the points changes hurt them as allies, a bit. I will mess around with it, mainly for Primarus Psykers. I wish there was a better HQ choice, but I may be dropping an Exorcist to get a Pask Punisher w/ friend, Vendetta, and Vets. I wish the SoB just got something like Stormtroopers with Vendettas added in a la Witchhunters to make them a "full" codex. That glaring gap makes it really sad. I guess I could get a Stormwing Formation, but that's 475~ points for three flyers. Seems kinda cheesy, even though I could kit bash them into Sisters Flyers. Rather have codex approved Avengers.

As a singular book, IG is pretty good, it's just allies will be screwy. I see some potentially broken stuff coming from Space Marines abusing those priests for rerolling everything. TH/SS with reroll to hit, to wound, and saves? Ick...

You can ally Stormtroopers to the Sisters book as Battle Brothers (use the formations to get extra outside of the basic HQ+ two troops max you have normally!

) without Guard by using the Tempestus codex. It basically looks a lot like C:WH at that point, even more so if you take an Inquisitor and a "retinue" (Henchmen Squad), or Karamazov.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Sigvatr wrote:
I refuse to believe anyone who claims that his 170 pts 3 twin-linked lasguns transporter / flyer is overpriced when I pay 115 for an anti-grav, open transport without guns.

The ghost ark does have guns. 10 of them, in fact.
They also have the ability to raise warriors from the dead.

**Sigvatr**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I refuse to believe anyone who claims that his 170 pts 3 twin-linked lasguns transporter / flyer is overpriced when I pay 115 for an anti-grav, open transport without guns.

The ghost ark does have guns. 10 of them, in fact.
They also have the ability to raise warriors from the dead.

I correct myself: it doesn't have any "actual" weapons.

**Desubot**

Somewhere near C:SM

**TheKbob**

ClockworkZion wrote:
You can ally Stormtroopers to the Sisters book as Battle Brothers (use the formations to get extra outside of the basic HQ+ two troops max you have normally! ) without Guard by using the Tempestus codex. It basically looks a lot like C:WH at that point, even more so if you take an Inquisitor and a "retinue" (Henchmen Squad), or Karamazov.

No Vendetta,... means it's of little tactical value for me to do so. My deficiency is lacking mobile AA. Plus, my scene allows one ally slot, so I could do Inq + Storm Troopers, making IG the best bet still.

Sisters need AA. This is terrible as a stand alone codex.

**ClockworkZion**

Inq doesn't use an allies slot (it has an "Inquisitorial Detachment" slot instead), neither do allied formations.

**TheKbob**

Sigvatr wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
I refuse to believe anyone who claims that his 170 pts 3 twin-linked lasguns transporter / flyer is overpriced when I pay 115 for an anti-grav, open transport without guns.

The ghost ark does have guns. 10 of them, in fact.
They also have the ability to raise warriors from the dead.

I correct myself: it doesn't have any "actual" weapons.

A flayer array that can split fire, auto-glance vehicles, and provide a tertriary target with the dudes on the inside?

You're greatly devaluing one of the best transports in the game. Tiny rear arc, 2 good guns, 4HP, skimmer, open topped, Av13... It's a great, great unit. It just sucks to build.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Inq doesn't use an allies slot (it has an "Inquisitorial Detachment" slot instead), neither do allied formations.

Doesn't matter, one ally slot period. So no Inq + Someone else + Primary. That's how they play at my store. Formations woudl be an ally. Belakor or Cypher would be an ally. Only one thing outside of your codex, basically.

**Ravenous D**

TheKbob wrote:

You're greatly devaluing one of the best transports in the game. Tiny rear arc, 2 good guns, 4HP, skimmer, open topped, Av13... It's a great, great unit. It just sucks to build.
.

That's exactly why you don't see them, or if you do they aren't painted well, its a nightmare.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

**ClockworkZion**

Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

Can of silver spray paint before fully assembling it and you're 3/4 done.

**gungo**

greatbigtree wrote:
The codex has a glaring deficiency that, to the best of my knowledge, no other codex has.

Our troops have no efficient means to get to the back of a Hammer and Anvil / Vanguard Strike deployment map. Considering that even if you put a unit at the front of your deployment zone, and you have a straight shot to an objective, you need to move about 42"+ to get to an objective. In practice, with a little bit of zig-zagging on the way, you'd need to move 12" for 4 turns, at a minimum, which means boys inside a Chimera are reduced to snap firing for 4 turns... assuming that Chimera doesn't get blown up on the way there. They deploy turn 5... and hope to hell they don't get blown up on the last turn/s.

SM's have drop pods. Chaos can take Huron to guarantee outflanking troop/s. Eldar / Dark Eldar have fast Skimmers, Orks can hop in a truck and flat out to be there in two turns... and they aren't losing much to snap firing... I'm not overly familiar with Nids, but I think they have some jump pack troops that can hop there reasonably quickly or deep strike. The point I'm trying to make, is that if an opponent plays to win, they put their objecitves as far back as possible, and most AM lists can't get there.

If a pod army plops down in front of an AM tank line, you don't have enough turns to get there. The only transport that can deliver a reasonable-sized scoring unit to the backfield is the Valkyrie, and since you're already taking a Vendetta for competitive flyer protection, you're dumping a ton of points into a Flyer that can't effectively fight other flyers. :( I used to use Captain Al with an outflanking Platoon coupled with a Vendetta with a naked Infantry Squad to claim deep objectives. That's gone now, and I've got some major changes to make.

EDIT: Without the transport capacity drop, I was playing a Vendetta at 180 pts in pickup games at my LGS, and found the price to be reasonable. With the diminished transport cap, I don't think it's quite worth 170, but it's close, and nothing else compares in the role it is required for, which is fighting other flyers. [Since it has an effective secondary role of hunting ground vehicles!]

The codex is a powerful shooting army, but completely lacks in mobility, especially if one takes advantage of the price drops on most Russes, which are our current workhorses. Unlike others, I think that all "competitive" versions of AM will either run a pair of Valks with a Vendetta which will severely hinder the rest of the army, or they will NEED to take allies with mobile scoring units, like SM squads in Pods, or Biker Troops, or BA Assault Squads to Deep Strike... that sort of thing.

The codex has a lot of good tools, but a clever opponent will deploy their objectives out of reach, so you can't win the game. :( At least, if you're running a "pure" AM list.

Valks transporting 12 models easily across the battefield. Vendettas transporting 6 (there is also an outflanking warlord trait). We are not exactly drowning in fast transport or special deployment rules for our troops but its not like we dont have the option to air drop troops far across the battlefield. It seems your more upset about the loss of Al'rahem since the vendetta still can deploy objective scoring troops. . Scout sentinals still outflank, scions can deepstrike, our artillery stil reaches across the board and doesnt need LOS. So we can still shoot at objectives across the board and drop in some troops on the last turns of the game to contest objectives. This has always been a viable tactic and still is. Personally i miss the infiltrate option of Sergeant Harker, but he was never good for securing objectives. It was 1 veteran squad that was blown off the board by turn 4, however he was fun. Hes just overpriced now.

**Sigvatr**

TheKbob wrote:

A flayer array that can split fire, auto-glance vehicles, and provide a tertriary target with the dudes on the inside?

You're greatly devaluing one of the best transports in the game. Tiny rear arc, 2 good guns, 4HP, skimmer, open topped, Av13... It's a great, great unit. It just sucks to build.

I run two of them in my list

...and really, they aren't THAT hard to build. I liked it. Painting them is a major pain in the buttocks tho

**amanita**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

Can of silver spray paint before fully assembling it and you're 3/4 done.

Spray after assembly and you are 7/8ths done!

**ClockworkZion**

amanita wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

Can of silver spray paint before fully assembling it and you're 3/4 done.

Spray after assembly and you are 7/8ths done!

Easier to get into the nooks and crannies if you do it before you assemble, Plus easier to wash everything with Nuln Oil and then drybrush with Necron Compound with the big brush. Assemble and done.

**NuggzTheNinja**

greatbigtree wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
The Vendetta is far, far, FAR from being overpriced. It has three lasguns. TL. Three. Lasguns. On top of being a flyer and thus having superior defense. I would gladly pay 170 pts for such a model to include in my army. Even with 0 transport capacity.

I was referring to the Ghost Ark in my previous post.

Sweet Mother of God, your Night Scythe puts a Vendetta to shame when it comes to flyer-hunting points efficiency. It has a transport capacity of 15 Necrons, and any troop choice you put in is more survivable as an objective grabber. Further, it is a Dedicated Transport.

You can believe a Vendetta is undercosted / fairly costed if you wish, but don't piss and moan when you can run Night Scythes!

This. Night Scythes are undercosted by about half. When they're 150 points in the new Necron dex they'll still be a damn good deal.

**Lamo**

Couple things. I personally think guard are in the top 3 books out atm. Yarrick is the best warlord ever e.g. he died? 3+ he gets up next turn so he denies warlord very well, He gives everyone in 12 of him fearless on steroids(vs shooting but thats what you want)...while still being able to go to ground if needed.

Blobs are super cheap and effective, primis psykers are some if the cheapest divination psykers out there, orders are great, wyverns really hurt death stars as well as anything else, pask with his punisher and maybe a few other tanks is pretty strong. Only real weaknesses imo are fmc and fliers but I think with allies they are super powerful. e.g. a splash of inquisition (coteaz + servo caddy) and white scar allies for : a pimped out chapter master (or khan) which give the unit they are with hit and run(blobs have fun), a storm tallon(good addition to a vendetta), two maxed out bike units to combat squad to get 4 scoring mobile units and options to grav cents or a stalker.

The new IG codex as a whole has a few issues in that really it feels like maybe 4-5 units are the winners and the rest are decent to mehh(though there are a relatively high number of decent units id say)

**sing your life**

ClockworkZion wrote:
sing your life wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
sing your life wrote:
Funny, because not everyone thinks Vendetta is worth the points now.

Which is hilarious because everyone knew it was too good before, and now it's gotten the point increase it needed to get it's suddenly horrible. The vehicle didn't change (outside of transport capacity, that I don't recall people using them as transports too often) but now it's awful. Go figure.

The general rule is that if GW makes a choice more powerful is completely breaks the game, less powerful and there is no point taking it...

"It's more fairly balanced, that means it sucks!"

This is my new signature.

**ninjafiredragon**

ClockworkZion wrote:
amanita wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

Can of silver spray paint before fully assembling it and you're 3/4 done.

Spray after assembly and you are 7/8ths done!

Easier to get into the nooks and crannies if you do it before you assemble, Plus easier to wash everything with Nuln Oil and then drybrush with Necron Compound with the big brush. Assemble and done.

My god what happened to your portrait????

**ClockworkZion**

ninjafiredragon wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
amanita wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the unit has excellent stats and abilities, but screw building and painting it. The sheer number of parts and surface areas on the thing is the big barrier to that unit, certainly not its rules

Can of silver spray paint before fully assembling it and you're 3/4 done.

Spray after assembly and you are 7/8ths done!

Easier to get into the nooks and crannies if you do it before you assemble, Plus easier to wash everything with Nuln Oil and then drybrush with Necron Compound with the big brush. Assemble and done.

My god what happened to your portrait????

I'm taking a break from my all metal army to start an all metal army.

Seriously, I'm starting Vostroyans and felt like switching it up while I was at it.