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dresnar1 wrote:
3RD got me into the game. 4th was awesome. 4th turned me into a traveling tournament player in love with all things GW. I tried to play a different army at every event. Well supported events were all over the county. I became a pretty good mini painter. I made terrain to match my armies. The hobby was fun. It was a blast. I picked up fantasy after a bit too.

5th was the beginning of the end. The beginning of random charts and true line of sight and all things stupid were put into the rules. (..)

Agreed (though disagree on the comments about JJ - he's just got a different idea of game to what I want).

4th was my favourite. I felt like it was a tidied up 3rd edition, though I'm aware that the codex's started to run away with Special Rules towards the end.

Abstract terrain LoS (though vehicles were not abstracted - not many people realised this!) meant that LoS blocking terrain was very common and made for an interesting game full of tactical manoeuvres and decisions. With True LoS, you very rarely have LoS blocking terrain and the game simply becomes a case of target priority, rather than tactical manoeuvring. It was also much quicker without having to bend down to check who could/couldn't see through terrain and having the ensuing argument about it.

Since I've mentioned movement, it's a prime example of the escalation of Special Rules. In 3rd ed, Fleet of Foot was extremely rare, IIRC only available to Eldar and Tyranids. They were the only exceptions to the core movement rules. Throughtout 3rd/4th ed a few units got some movement related special rules (such as Red Paint Job giving +1" movement), but now almost every single unit has got access in some form or another to a movement based special rule. Not only are these extra special rules to memorise, and not knowing instantly by looking at the units statline, but they also conflict with others and become a headache to remember - especially when they all interact differently with things like terrain.

I still think that removing the Movement stat was a mistake, but I could live with their only being odd exceptions to the movement rules. Now everything is an exception, and it would save so much time, energy and ink if they just stuck the movement stat back in.

All I have to say is that with 20 years of experience in 40K, if I wanted to teach my wife to play with me, I would use the 4th edition rulebook, and 3rd edition codexes. Many of the Universal Special rules in 4th were easy to attach to the units they belonged to without having to actually have the keyword in the codex entry. Now, sometimes there would be very slight exceptions, such as using the 2006 Eldar Codex over the 3rd edition one, as the 3rd edition one had horribly overcosted units, and Autarchs really added fun to the army over just having Farseers as HQ all the time.

But man, remember cool fringe armies like the Space Wolves 13th company and the Kroot Mercs? Fun, imaginative things like that really complimented the simpler rulesets of that era. Especially since such fringe armies actually had simpler special rules than the core armies do now!

3rd got me into 40k. played heaps of it in high school and then nothing until 6th. Definitely agree, i still have my old 3rd ed rulebook and it was very straightforward (even if they did say explicitly to roll a dice for anything they haven't covered). It was also cool how you got all the basic army lists in the book too, so you could pick up and play straight away. I could see how THAT would lose a lot of money for GW lol

GA with this calculator is 110 pts (used AV 12 to reflect the initial AV 13), adding a few points for the reviving would be fair. Or I could just leave it out.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Holy crap. 4th only has 100 pages of rules. That's HALF of 7th. I remembered it having the same amount of pages but then (I found it in our cellar!) saw that 100+ pags are fluff and - I gak you not - INSTRUCTIONS on how to make CUSTOM, yes, SCRATCH-BUILT terrain.

We're 9 people right now interested in having a look at older editions. Now we gotta work on transitioning new models into the older rules, e.g. Ghost Arks.

Ah yes, I remember when every codex featured modeling advice and how-to's on building terrain from cereal boxes and foam core. Though including fluffy pictures in the erstwhile "Reference" section is my personal pet peeve. The unit profiles alone take up 16 pages in the IG iBook because of all the pictures and fancy borders.

And the rules have gotten crazy. There's not a bike, jet bike, or jump pack infantry unit that has to take dangerous terrain tests anymore. Assault rules are such a pain, with pile in moves you have to move models multiple times.

My favorite ridiculous example of rules inflation is the 130 words in the IG codex to describe the chimera lasgun arrays, a weapon that you wouldn't otherwise pay 2 points for:

“A Chimera has two separate arrays of three lasguns – one array located above each side of its hull. Up to six models in the embarked unit (a maximum of three per array) may fire one lasgun each from these lasgun arrays, provided those models are not using the Chimera’s Fire Points this turn. To represent the unusual nature of these weapons, use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved. If the Chimera has suffered a Crew Stunned or Crew Shaken result, the lasgun arrays can only make Snap Shots. Lastly, each array may shoot at a different target to the Chimera’s other weaponry, though all lasguns in the same array must shoot at the same target.”

“A Chimera has two separate arrays of three lasguns – one array located above each side of its hull. Up to six models in the embarked unit (a maximum of three per array) may fire one lasgun each from these lasgun arrays, provided those models are not using the Chimera’s Fire Points this turn. To represent the unusual nature of these weapons, use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved. If the Chimera has suffered a Crew Stunned or Crew Shaken result, the lasgun arrays can only make Snap Shots. Lastly, each array may shoot at a different target to the Chimera’s other weaponry, though all lasguns in the same array must shoot at the same target.”

Meanwhile, in 2nd Edition land (at least in the Battle Bible - but I doubt the actual codex is much different).........

.....In addition, the Chimera has 3 Lasguns on each side (for a total of 6) with a 180 degree arc to either side, which may be fired by transported models.

*Note that back in those hoary old days any and all vague-ness that might arise from the above sentence were fixed with a mention of "No, you can't do that- don't be dumb."

Oh I forgot I hate the rule where units can only fire at one target. So a tactical squad with a missile launcher who wants to shoot at a tank, wastes all of the other 9 guys bolters who could fire at a nearby infantry squad. Hate hate hate that rule and it started in 3rd.

I can understand in GIGANTIC games, this rule would help, but in typical 40k games, nonsense.

I loved 2nd edition, and agree its better for small games, but it took a looonng time to play out our larger games, but man it had a lot of color, random events, and was a lot of fun regardless. Things got darker when 3rd came along.

That is a rule that sucks. I always thought it should have been like in the sci-fi game AT-43 where each type of weapon in an infantry unit could be fired at a separate target. I may be wrong but I think 7th edition 40K now does this?

No 7th doesnt do this.

When I first started playing this was the rule that almost stopped me getting into wargaming. Now I never give my troops weapons that contradict the squads weapons. Just to justify having the weapons in the first place.

I loved the 3rd edition rulebook. Awesome piece of writing. Loved the campaign advice, the fluff, the battle report in the front, army lists in the back, custom terrain modeling. It's all there. Never played a game of it though (was in grade school when I bought the book and poured over it). 4th edition was when I started playing.

However, I prefer shooting to assault. Always have and most likely always will. That and the fact that the only army I've ever collected is Tau and they don't have any rules in the book combine enough to make me prefer newer editions.

Honestly my ideal rule-set would be 6th or 7th edition with a couple changes. Do something about charge range, allow consolidating into combat (but in the name of all that is holy don't actually resolve it until the next turn), also a special rule that allows assaulting out of reserves to give to elite CC units like Warp Talons or Genestealers/Lictors to actually make them worth something.

4th Edition is one of my favorites. Third had a lot of strong points. But Fourth had certain things that were incredible. From extremely customisable armies to making your army only have artificer armor but making them incredibly durable. It was quite cool.

Fourth edition if you played it right Chaos and Space Marines had the Best Lists possible. If you wanted elite kill teams you had it, The wargear options allowed you a 100 points per a model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KTG17 wrote:
Oh I forgot I hate the rule where units can only fire at one target. So a tactical squad with a missile launcher who wants to shoot at a tank, wastes all of the other 9 guys bolters who could fire at a nearby infantry squad. Hate hate hate that rule and it started in 3rd.

I can understand in GIGANTIC games, this rule would help, but in typical 40k games, nonsense.

I loved 2nd edition, and agree its better for small games, but it took a looonng time to play out our larger games, but man it had a lot of color, random events, and was a lot of fun regardless. Things got darker when 3rd came along.

Me and my friends and a bunch of players in the store thought it was stupid and got rid of the rule while we played the games. Because we thought they were dumb and didn't make any sense in the setting.

GorillaWarfare wrote:


This is one thing thats bothering me about 40k. I hate seeing a unit on the table top and just knowing that there is a whole set of mysterious special rules that I know nothing about it. You used to be able to just look a unit, see its wargear, see weathers infantry or bikes or whatever, and you know what the unit is capable of. Now the unit has something extra that you can't see.

This bothers me a lot. Add to it that no one paints their GD models. I have to ask, "if you were me, what is more dangerous?" before shooting half the time. Bollocks.

VanHallan wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:


This is one thing thats bothering me about 40k. I hate seeing a unit on the table top and just knowing that there is a whole set of mysterious special rules that I know nothing about it. You used to be able to just look a unit, see its wargear, see weathers infantry or bikes or whatever, and you know what the unit is capable of. Now the unit has something extra that you can't see.

This bothers me a lot. Add to it that no one paints their GD models. I have to ask, "if you were me, what is more dangerous?" before shooting half the time. Bollocks.

Thats why before a Match, me and my friends tell each other what units had special rules and what didn't and showed them the codex and helped them understand who had rules and what I had to sacrifice in order to get those rules.

KTG17 wrote:So 3rd Edition Rulebook including Army Lists I think sold for $30 at the time.

vs

Latest Rulebook $85 + $50 for codex. Ouch.

You should see what's happened to the price of a gallon of gas or a pound of ground beef over that same time frame. And look at how much more you're getting as well.

Anyways...

KTG17 wrote:I love the look and feel of the 6th edition rulebook, its a beautiful book, but even with the index, its such a big book with lots of rules and I can't play a game without having to look up all sorts of things.

3rd edition is really lite on rules.

I think this is somewhat of an illusion. The reason being that in 3rd ed, they had a handful of rules in the rulebook, and then basically every single unit in the game had their own crazy special rules in their codices.

One of the reasons why the new version of the rules is so much bigger is because of the changeover to universal special rules. In 3rd edition, if you had a hellhound, you had to explain "it's like a flamer weapon that uses the regular template, except I can put the narrow part of the template anywhere within 12" of the gun, and I can twist the template any way I want from there so long as the narrow part is closer than the fat part, and I follow all the other rules for flame weapons."

Now, I say "it's S6 Ap4 torrent". Done.

Plus, of course, there's a lot of stuff that's been added over time. There weren't chariots or fliers in 3rd ed, etc. etc. There was just less game to the game.

Also, I don't feel particularly nostalgic for 3rd ed, even though that's when I started playing, so I should. I don't know if we need to go back to the days of screener units casting invincibility on the entire army behind them or having to literally guess with guess range weapons.

I agree that 4th improved on 3rd, but I also say that 5th improved on 4th. All three editions were sort of the same game, except 5th just did everything right with the exception of wound wrapping and TLoS. Excepting those two rules, though, everything else more or less moved forwards in the right direction over those changes. It's like they made third, and spent the next two editions fixing it up and polishing it.

I'm actually kind of looking forward to a far-off 8th edition, as it will be sort of the 5th of 6th.

 Ailaros wrote:

You should see what's happened to the price of a gallon of gas or a pound of ground beef over that same time frame. And look at how much more you're getting as well.

You're saying the price of ground beef has risen by almost 200% in those few years? Crazy place you live in.

I remember a time that was not long ago at all where a Space Marine Battleforce costed 500 crowns.

I just checked the GW website, and the added cost of all the units the Battleforce included back then is 1200 crowns.

The difference is absurd and FAR beyond what inflation could hope to explain.

(For reference; 6-7 crowns equals a dollar.)

3rd edition was horrendous and made me quit 40k for 10 years

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

You should see what's happened to the price of a gallon of gas or a pound of ground beef over that same time frame. And look at how much more you're getting as well.

You're saying the price of ground beef has risen by almost 200% in those few years? Crazy place you live in.

I remember a time that was not long ago at all where a Space Marine Battleforce costed 500 crowns.

I just checked the GW website, and the added cost of all the units the Battleforce included back then is 1200 crowns.

The difference is absurd and FAR beyond what inflation could hope to explain.

(For reference; 6-7 crowns equals a dollar.)

yep.

Ashiraya wrote:I remember a time that was not long ago...

Yes, and I remember when you could get a 20oz soda from a vending machine for a dollar and when gas was 80 cents a gallon. Blah, blah, blah.

Prices go up. Welcome to centralized banking.

Make a specific comparison over a serious length of time for a product with similar levels of quality improvement. Or, you know, make vague "back in my day" statements that have no real meaning other than as a conduit for grousing...

I agree with most all. I started in 3rd ed and miss it dearly. Solid rules, had lots of fun. I liked giving my guys power axes, swords, spears and maces and having them all count as the same weapon, it was so much easier than now days. I love building the transports and tanks, and they were worth taking in 3rd ed.

But all in all I think my favorite edition was 5th.

 Ailaros wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:I remember a time that was not long ago...

Yes, and I remember when you could get a 20oz soda from a vending machine for a dollar and when gas was 80 cents a gallon. Blah, blah, blah.

Prices go up. Welcome to centralized banking.

Make a specific comparison over a serious length of time for a product with similar levels of quality improvement. Or, you know, make vague "back in my day" statements that have no real meaning other than as a conduit for grousing...

Believe it or not, this was not back in the eighties. It was 2006-2007 somewhere?

Centralised banking totally justifies bumping a product up to 240% of its price, right, totally.

Believe it or not, Ailaros, but GWs pricing has actually been rising more than other products. ( what a revelation! except not)

Allaros' seems to work in acadamia. I suppose the cost of college tuition in the US is also reflective of simple supply and demand, no?

If you really think the quality of the product has gone up in anywhere near the proportion of the price of the product I think I could find some really neat stuff to sell you, Allaros.. haha.

VanHallan wrote:
Allaros' seems to work in acadamia. I suppose the cost of college tuition in the US is also reflective of simple supply and demand, no?

If you really think the quality of the product has gone up in anywhere near the proportion of the price of the product I think I could find some really neat stuff to sell you, Allaros.. haha.

Like a bridge in Brooklyn maybe?

I too started in 3rd. I was only 14 and I played BA, but I remember it very fondly. I miss the rules simple enough for kids years younger than myself to firmly grasp them. I miss a game priced such that a highschool sophomore flipping burgers could afford to play it. I miss the gamesdays, GW product support and the ability to truly immerse myself in the 40k universe. But most of all I miss a time when the game that was designed to be played, not just sold.

"I too started in 3rd. I was only 14 and I played BA, but I remember it very fondly. I miss the rules simple enough for kids years younger than myself to firmly grasp them. I miss a game priced such that a highschool sophomore flipping burgers could afford to play it. I miss the gamesdays, GW product support and the ability to truly immerse myself in the 40k universe. But most of all I miss a time when the game that was designed to be played, not just sold. "

OFT

I started with 3rd and loved watching it morph slowly into 4th. 4th ed. was the best, by far the most fun I've had with this game. Its been a steady decline ever since in pretty much all aspects.

 Ailaros wrote:

KTG17 wrote:So 3rd Edition Rulebook including Army Lists I think sold for $30 at the time.

vs

Latest Rulebook $85 + $50 for codex. Ouch.

You should see what's happened to the price of a gallon of gas or a pound of ground beef over that same time frame. And look at how much more you're getting as well.

Anyways...

Food and fuel are terrible indicators of actual inflation since they are commodities and their prices fluctuate dramatically. Consumer and durable goods would be better comparisons, but that wouldn't make your point, would it?

As for getting more in a boxed set: last time I checked, a box of Space Marines still just made 10 Space Marines. Adding a few more cents of plastic bits and bobs on a sprue doesn't equate to value added.

Ailaros wrote:

KTG17 wrote:I love the look and feel of the 6th edition rulebook, its a beautiful book, but even with the index, its such a big book with lots of rules and I can't play a game without having to look up all sorts of things.

3rd edition is really lite on rules.

I think this is somewhat of an illusion. The reason being that in 3rd ed, they had a handful of rules in the rulebook, and then basically every single unit in the game had their own crazy special rules in their codices.

I like USRs for simplicity's sake. However, to cherry-pick a unit from the IG codex and then go on to say that "every single unit in the game had their own crazy special rules" is ludicrous. That's far more common in a later codex than it ever was in 3rd Edition.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, of course, there's a lot of stuff that's been added over time. There weren't chariots or fliers in 3rd ed, etc. etc. There was just less game to the game.

Chariots? Who actually uses chariots in their lists? As for flyers, they're one of the worst things that's been added to the game. Just like super-heavies, they should be an optional part, a la Apocalypse. But, that doesn't sell models, so cram it into 40K.

Ailaros wrote:
I'm actually kind of looking forward to a far-off 8th edition, as it will be sort of the 5th of 6th.

I'm looking forward to 8th Edition, too. But only in the sense that I hope it leads to a complete reboot where they realize the terrible mess they've made of the rules.

As a result of IW abuse in the 3rd ed Chaos codex, Chaos Space Marines were never allowed to customize anything every again. At least, that's why I think chaos has no options now. I try to tell myself that GW has reasons for the decisions they make.

Rule wise, Chaos Space Marines are like slightly more bland Ultramarines now.

Well, I certainly enjoy everyone's input on the various pros and cons of the the various editions, and I certainly have mentioned what i didn't like about third -

oh found another - hated dedicated transports. For small games I liked the idea of a Razorback running around on its own.

But everything I have mentioned can be resolved with house rules with friends. I did play a few games with people I didnt know at stores, and to be honest, while I adjusted to the system there were a whole lot of issues I wish I didnt have to accept.

BUT, my specific point was the rulebook itself, not the rules per say. Even if some of the complaints I had were reversed, I doubt they would take up much more room than the rules already took up. So between the art, fluff, rules, modeling, simplier missions, get-by army lists, its a pretty complete rulebook. Thats all I am saying.

And as for prices going up, yes I think its ridiculous to bring up food and gas in comparison, but since someone did, if I were to take

3rd edition rulebook including get-by army lists for $30

and compare that to whats out now that I would have to get to play a game, and have some stats of the armies to try out:

Rulebook $83
Space Marine Codex $50
Dark Eldar $40?
Ork Codex $50
Tyranid Codex $50
Eldar Codex $50
Chaos Marine Codex $50
Daemons Codex $50
Astra Militarium Codex $50

Good lord.

And I know there is a lot more for each army in the codexes, and you need one if you are going to properly invest in an army, or at all if you are playing a new edition. The point I am trying to make is that with that single rulebook, I can throw together a game of Space Marines vs Eldar or Orks vs Chaos right away, whereas all I need is some minis. Now days, its a serious investment in just getting started because after the rulebook which provides nothing on any army, you have to buy a codex to really see if you like playing them. That is a big part of why I appreciate the 3rd edition rulebook, even if its army lists left out a lot of goodies, or that the codexes changed some things. Its a great way to get started.

And no, I dont think the price of meat or gas comes anywhere near close to this.

I like power swords, axes, and maces. I think I would miss those.

My favourite era was the 3rd/4th. My favourite codex was Eye of Terror, and I was really into the scratch building projects and painting tips. Back then, a codex wasn't just an army list, but a manual (although very brief) of how to participate in the hobby. Though I suppose you can argue that with the internet, those hobby sections aren't really needed anymore.

Oh, and rules wise, abstract terrain and defensive weapons (that was 4th edition, right?). I thought abstract terrain was the best. It made a fight on a jungle themed table feel like a fight in a jungle! (remember codex catachans?)

 dementedwombat wrote:
I loved the 3rd edition rulebook. Awesome piece of writing. Loved the campaign advice, the fluff, the battle report in the front, army lists in the back, custom terrain modeling. It's all there.

Totally agree with this. Even tho I never played a campaign I always wondered how cool that might be. Interesting reading.

However I laugh at that battle report. I am glad its there and think all rulebooks should come with one, but I thought either Gavin didnt know what he was doing, or it was scripted to have Andy Chambers win. I think if the Falcon and Vyper held back and picked off the Terminators from a distance, it would have been a very different battle.

But glad it was included!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know another thing I think 3rd suffered from is that since the rules were so lite in the rulebook, and various skills and rules expanded on in the codex, I believe there was confusion and issues even with rules overlapping or sometimes the same rule description being call different things in different codexes, which is ok I guess, but worse when two rules shared the same name in different codexes, and actually had different rules. I do like centrally defined skills and rules, but then again, looking at the new codexes, I think I saw references to skills and rules in the rulebook, and then new ones in the codex, so I guess we are screwed no matter what we do. The rulebooks cant anticipate everything thats going to be going on two years out I guess.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I like power swords, axes, and maces. I think I would miss those.

My favourite era was the 3rd/4th. My favourite codex was Eye of Terror, and I was really into the scratch building projects and painting tips. Back then, a codex wasn't just an army list, but a manual (although very brief) of how to participate in the hobby. Though I suppose you can argue that with the internet, those hobby sections aren't really needed anymore.

Oh, and rules wise, abstract terrain and defensive weapons (that was 4th edition, right?). I thought abstract terrain was the best. It made a fight on a jungle themed table feel like a fight in a jungle! (remember codex catachans?)

Actually those really helped me want to start a heresy era army. Infact it really made you want to inspire to do more. You didn't just see bland space marine, you saw conversions, you saw interesting ideas being executed.

I mean I still remember the back of the 4th edition space marine codex, and the third edition.