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 Anpu42 wrote:
I love reading there threads.
I have the opposite opinion, I feel there should be more.
Example:
Codex: Space Marines/Ultra-Marines followed be Supplements [Released in rapid succession as part of the ordinal release, like once a week.]
>Salamanders
>Iron Hands
>Space Wolves
>Blood Angels
ect.
Each having there own unique Units and Rules

That and I have to ask, what is wrong with BA/DA/SW each having there own, if you don't want them and are not going to but them, why does it matter.

What's wrong with each Traitor legion having a codex?
What's wrong with each chaos god having a codex?
What's wrong with a Traitor IG codex?

There's far more variation there.

Might as well go full ridiculous and have a codex for every major regiment, every craftworld, every ork clan, every dark eldar kabal, every necron tomb world, every tau sept, and every tyranid hive fleet.

Only when there are 100+ fully developed faction with their own book, unique units, special characters, and snowflake rules and wargear will be the game be complete.

But of course, that's silly. Most of those things can be represented just fine using the existing books. Making the right unit selections, modelling appropriately, given them a sweet ass paint job, and writing up some cool fluff for your force does most of the job of representing nearly every sub faction you can imagine.

So why should a handful of marine factions require their own books when they all use the same structure, the same wargear, the same vehicles, and the same end goals?

Because it causes unnecessary bloat, is a burden on the players remembering details about the different marine chapters, is costly to collect, takes up significantly more development time, slowing down everything else, and becomes far more difficult to balance.

All of which could be achieved by a well done combined loyalist marine book and chaos marine book. You'd have to flex your imagination a little more, and maybe use things like paint and conversions to make your army as unique as you want it, but it would work fine.

Rules are far from the only or best thing to make a faction feel unique.

I think that all of the Space Marines, with the possible exception of Grey Knights (who could well end up in an Ordo book of their own as part of a larger project).

The same basic units and wargear would be drawn upon as a base, and each Chapter would then have 4-5 pages of specific rules, wargear and special units to accurately reflect that Chapter's traits on the battlefield.

Chaos could get something similar, in fact so could Orks, Guard, Eldar, even Necrons (different dynasties).

Toofast wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Lots of people keep going on about how unique DA SW and BA are from the other SM but I have yet to see someone say why.

With chapter tactics the newest SW has bundled some very, very different legions into the same codex.

It just leads me to think people want to feel like a special star and have their Space Marine Legion have its own Codex.

Logan and his sleigh
Bjorn
Ulrik
Ragnar
Murderfang
Shield dread
Scouts are elites
Blood claw and wolf guard bikes have totally different Stat lines and weapon options from C:SM bikes
Jump pack troops have different stats from C:SM
TWC
Harald
Canis
Helfrost weapons
Frost axes/swords
USRs
Warlord traits
Psychic powers
FOCs/formations
Relics

Now multiply that by 3. How many pages are we up to there? If you think SW, BA and DA only differ from C:SM in USRs and a couple pieces of war gear you obviously haven't read any of the codexes. Nearly every Stat line from C:SM is different for SW. Now maybe you can tell me how they could be incorporated into C:SM without adding tons of pages.

Lets see: Cut the Psychic Powers, Shield dread is wargear, Frost weapons can be cut, just power weapons + 1 or instead they can upgrade from power weapon for +X points, can cut the relics, FoC/Formations cut, Bloodclaws are just scouts in power armor, and can upgrade to jump packs, Elite scouts are cut, TWC are a unique unit option, helfrost is a unique chapter weapon.

 Blacksails wrote:
Might as well go full ridiculous and have a codex for every major regiment, every craftworld, every ork clan, every dark eldar kabal, every necron tomb world, every tau sept, and every tyranid hive fleet.

Only when there are 100+ fully developed faction with their own book, unique units, special characters, and snowflake rules and wargear will be the game be complete.

But of course, that's silly. Most of those things can be represented just fine using the existing books. Making the right unit selections, modelling appropriately, given them a sweet ass paint job, and writing up some cool fluff for your force does most of the job of representing nearly every sub faction you can imagine.

So why should a handful of marine factions require their own books when they all use the same structure, the same wargear, the same vehicles, and the same end goals?

Because it causes unnecessary bloat, is a burden on the players remembering details about the different marine chapters, is costly to collect, takes up significantly more development time, slowing down everything else, and becomes far more difficult to balance.

All of which could be achieved by a well done combined loyalist marine book and chaos marine book. You'd have to flex your imagination a little more, and maybe use things like paint and conversions to make your army as unique as you want it, but it would work fine.

Rules are far from the only or best thing to make a faction feel unique.

Well first of all, you are the first person to ever, EVER give me a reason when I have asked, I don't agree with some of it, but thnk you once more.
This is sort of a snarky reply: The not knowing all of the rules of the "Other Codexes" things does hold water for me, I find more than half of the players I deal with do not know the rules of their own Codex let alone others. End Snarkyness
Personally I feel we have the right about of Codexs out there.
Truly the only ones out there that could benefit [and a lot don't think about who it would benefit] are:
>Chaos Daemons, Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard
>Inquisition & Sisters
Most others would cause confusion or Book Size increase.
Lets look at the Eldar/Dark Eldar you have two choices
1] Marginalize a lot of units and make some units unavailable to one army without a specific HQ or Formation.
2] Break the book into 3 Sections, One for Eldar, One for Dark Eldar and one for Units available to both.
Both have their Pros, but is mostly Cons to either approach.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Well first of all, you are the first person to ever, EVER give me a reason when I have asked, I don't agree with some of it, but thnk you once more.

Glad I could be of some help.

This is sort of a snarky reply: The not knowing all of the rules of the "Other Codexes" things does hold water for me, I find more than half of the players I deal with do not know the rules of their own Codex let alone others. End Snarkyness

I wouldn't call that snarky at all. Pretty standard if you ask me.

Then again, if most players don't know the basic rules of half the codices already, just imagine their shock when they face faction X for the first time.

Admittedly, its not the strongest counter argument, but its a factor for some players.

Point is, more isn't more. More often than not, less is more.

Personally I feel we have the right about of Codexs out there.
Truly the only ones out there that could benefit [and a lot don't think about who it would benefit] are:
>Chaos Daemons, Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard
>Inquisition & Sisters
Most others would cause confusion or Book Size increase.
Lets look at the Eldar/Dark Eldar you have two choices
1] Marginalize a lot of units and make some units unavailable to one army without a specific HQ or Formation.
2] Break the book into 3 Sections, One for Eldar, One for Dark Eldar and one for Units available to both.
Both have their Pros, but is mostly Cons to either approach.

Most of those changes are sensible, but I'd try and avoid creating more books than we already have. Merging marines would open up options for factions that could use a little more diversity.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Lots of people keep going on about how unique DA SW and BA are from the other SM but I have yet to see someone say why.

Those things have been explained many times before.
You could always open up a Blood Angels-codex and see for yourself?

My Codex, at the moment, is around 100 pages.
How do you suggest we add this to the Codex: Space Marines?

With chapter tactics the newest SW has bundled some very, very different legions into the same codex.
It just leads me to think people want to feel like a special star and have their Space Marine Legion have its own Codex.

Leads me to believe someone is just jealous because he can't be a special star with his two unique units.

Like the rest, cut the fluff, combine options that are simply sidegrades.

Ah, that is a good point. I was just thinking along the lines of rules. Certainly it benefits a faction's fluff to have its own codex!

But then should not every warband chapter and legion have a codex as an end goal for GW? That is a lot of books!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lets see: Cut the Psychic Powers, Shield dread is wargear, Frost weapons can be cut, just power weapons + 1 or instead they can upgrade from power weapon for +X points, can cut the relics, FoC/Formations cut, Bloodclaws are just scouts in power armor, and can upgrade to jump packs, Elite scouts are cut, TWC are a unique unit option, helfrost is a unique chapter weapon.

People are never going to be happy about having their army hacked apart to fit in as a few pages in another book. 10 pages are dedicated to special characters' rules alone in the SW codex. 2 pages to units that are completely unique in the TWC and Fenrisian Wolf units.

It would also get very convoluted if you actually tried to bundle SW without losing a whole heap of their rules in to C:SM. You say Blood Claws are just scouts in power armour with a few tweaks.

But rules wise, you actually have to say:

Blood Claws: Instead of initiating new members in to the Scouts like other chapters, Space Wolves initiate new members in to a Blood Claws due to the impetuous and headstrong of Space Wolf recruits learning to deal with the flaws in their newly implanted geneseed. Because of this, Space Wolves modify the typical Scout squad. They do not have Scout armour or Boltguns, but have Power Armour and Close Combat Weapons instead. They lose the following special rules: Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scout. Instead, they gain the special rules Acute Senses, Counter Attack and Rage. Instead of being able to only add 5 additional members, they may add up to 10 additional Blood Claws.

The weapon options are also completely different.

Then you have to go on to explain that SW don't get bikes, they get Blood Claw Bikes... which are Scout bikes but again with a list of differences. Then that Blood Claw Assault Marines have -1 Ws and Bs but gain Rage. (actually to be honest I never liked BC bikes, it always made more sense that GH would be on the bikes, but that's a discussion for another day).

Basically, to integrate SW in to C:SM, they either have to lose a lot of character or they have to be confusing and convoluted rules that take up a lot of space in the Codex.

Possible? Sure. Desirable? I don't think so.

Now, if you had of asked me way back in 3rd edition, should SW be rolled in to C:SM, I would have said yes (actually I still would have been mildly unhappy because they did have a book in 2nd edition too, but they were a lot more similar back then and rolling them in would have been much easier, 3rd edition was in general an edition that made me unhappy but I would have been more satisfied to see SW go in to C:SM for the sake of simplicity in an edition that overall was simplifying the game for the better).

You could include Blood Claws/GH in the same way as the Crusader Squad, just have separate units unlocked by Chapter Tactics.

 Paradigm wrote:
You could include Blood Claws/GH in the same way as the Crusader Squad, just have separate units unlocked by Chapter Tactics.

You could do a lot of things, I'm certainly not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying any way you slice it, it's going to take up a lot of extra pages and/or be a hacked down version (even if you throw the fluff in to a separate book and just keep the rules, it's still going to be like that IMO)

Personally, I'd have no problem with a 250+ page book that covered all the Marine chapters. Yes, it'd be expensive, but could include everything from the other books without watering it down.

Maybe someone can explain to me, but why are CSM and Daemons separate codices? Were they always separate or did they used to be one?

Also, I still think an Angels codex would be fun, but I want to be a special star and keep my own DA codex.

 Paradigm wrote:
Personally, I'd have no problem with a 250+ page book that covered all the Marine chapters. Yes, it'd be expensive, but could include everything from the other books without watering it down.

I wouldn't mind it if:

a) Its price were reflective of its worth. Given that current codices are already overpriced, I don't think GW are capable of releasing a book that actually costs what it's worth. Instead, I feel like I'd be paying premium for a whole heap of junk I don't want or use.

b) I felt it would actually let GW focus on other armies. I just tend to think it wouldn't. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if GW put the effort in to making a 250 page C:SM which was a nice quality product and not watered down at all, they'd still spend a couple of months each year trying to promote it just like the spend a couple of months each year on the various SM codices at the moment.

Yes Let GW Focus on Xenos, that is how we got Tau Eldar, not to mention Nids.

The poll does not work for me: I would prefer the following

Codex Astartes (as is)
Adpetus Astartes (non Codex Chapters) - so Space Wolves, Grey Kinghts etc
Imperial Agents (Inquisition (including Inquisitorial Stormtroopers), Arbites, Assassins, Rogue Traders etc)

"Regimental" and "Order" (Chapter) Tacitcs for AM/Guard and Sororitas - huge thing not to have done.

Chaos Renegades - recent rebel Chapters, Guard etc, Lost and the Damned
Chaos Legions - the original Legions with full lists and Chapter Tactics to represent them

Eldar - as is
Dark Eldar - as is
Tau - as is
Orks - as is - but again have Clan Tactics
Necrons - as is
Daemons - as is

leaves room for

Adeptus Mechanicus
Xenos Empires - new smaller races and mecenaries to add as Allies etc

 jreilly89 wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me, but why are CSM and Daemons separate codices? Were they always separate or did they used to be one?

Also, I still think an Angels codex would be fun, but I want to be a special star and keep my own DA codex.

They used to be together, each legion and god had specific rules and rules and daemon rules for princes was far more flexible.

And then we got cut down so hard that 'generic' would fit the 4th edition codex. The fact people still want their unique snowflake codex but balk at some other dex getting addition's is laughable.

A lot of the chapter-specific units could be genericized when folded into a combined SM codex. A unit of "Monstrous Cavalry" available to all chapters, or perhaps unlocked by taking the "Feral" Chapter Tactic or some such, would allow SW their special toys without being dead weight for everyone else, and it would add more toys to build the other 997 chapters that currently don't have their special snowflake codex.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
A lot of the chapter-specific units could be genericized when folded into a combined SM codex. A unit of "Monstrous Cavalry" available to all chapters, or perhaps unlocked by taking the "Feral" Chapter Tactic or some such, would allow SW their special toys without being dead weight for everyone else, and it would add more toys to build the other 997 chapters that currently don't have their special snowflake codex.

The beauty of Space Marines (or anything in sci fi wargaming to be honest), you can make any of those other 997 chapters and use one of the codices for one of the existing chapters. There's nothing saying that if you want to make your own chapter you MUST use C:SM. I've seen plenty of homebrews use SW rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Maybe someone can explain to me, but why are CSM and Daemons separate codices? Were they always separate or did they used to be one?

Also, I still think an Angels codex would be fun, but I want to be a special star and keep my own DA codex.

They used to be together, each legion and god had specific rules and rules and daemon rules for princes was far more flexible.

And then we got cut down so hard that 'generic' would fit the 4th edition codex. The fact people still want their unique snowflake codex but balk at some other dex getting addition's is laughable.

I don't think people are really "balking" at it.

IMO there can be as many or as few codices as you want. You could wrap all of the Imperium in to a single book if you wanted, you could just write a single book for all armies and do away with separate codices completely.

The important question is what is going to get how much attention. SW, BA and DA are already all their own codices. At this point it would take more effort for GW to put them in to a single book than to leave them separate unless they cut a lot of the character that makes those chapters unique.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The poll does not work for me: I would prefer the following

Codex Astartes (as is)
Adpetus Astartes (non Codex Chapters) - so Space Wolves, Grey Kinghts etc
Imperial Agents (Inquisition (including Inquisitorial Stormtroopers), Arbites, Assassins, Rogue Traders etc)

"Regimental" and "Order" (Chapter) Tacitcs for AM/Guard and Sororitas - huge thing not to have done.

Chaos Renegades - recent rebel Chapters, Guard etc, Lost and the Damned
Chaos Legions - the original Legions with full lists and Chapter Tactics to represent them

Eldar - as is
Dark Eldar - as is
Tau - as is
Orks - as is - but again have Clan Tactics
Necrons - as is
Daemons - as is

leaves room for

Adeptus Mechanicus
Xenos Empires - new smaller races and mecenaries to add as Allies etc

Sounds good to me, but all races should get a variant of chapter tactics.

I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.

I highly doubt that. Given that the CSM codex is supposed to cover every legion, every warband, every new renegade, every chaos god, and everything between, and somehow manages to not collapse into "a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic", the C:SM would do just fine. It might need a couple dozen extra pages, but when has that ever stopped GW?

 Selym wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.

I highly doubt that. Given that the CSM codex is supposed to cover every legion, every warband, every new renegade, every chaos god, and everything between, and somehow manages to not collapse into "a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic", the C:SM would do just fine. It might need a couple dozen extra pages, but when has that ever stopped GW?

Spoiler:

To be honest CSM are just a conglomeration of mixed mashed marginalized units with no real focus. The codex has what...2 builds that are worth anything, look at it and then think about what C:{All}SM would look like.
Codex: Chaos Maries should have been.
>Codex: Space Marines
>Codex: Knorne
>Codex: Nurgle
>Codex: Slannish
>Codex: Teznch
But GW did not do that, that is no reason to punish everyone else for their mistake for a bland flavorless Codex

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
Lots of people keep going on about how unique DA SW and BA are from the other SM but I have yet to see someone say why.

With chapter tactics the newest SW has bundled some very, very different legions into the same codex.

It just leads me to think people want to feel like a special star and have their Space Marine Legion have its own Codex.

Logan and his sleigh
Bjorn
Ulrik
Ragnar
Murderfang
Shield dread
Scouts are elites
Blood claw and wolf guard bikes have totally different Stat lines and weapon options from C:SM bikes
Jump pack troops have different stats from C:SM
TWC
Harald
Canis
Helfrost weapons
Frost axes/swords
USRs
Warlord traits
Psychic powers
FOCs/formations
Relics

Now multiply that by 3. How many pages are we up to there? If you think SW, BA and DA only differ from C:SM in USRs and a couple pieces of war gear you obviously haven't read any of the codexes. Nearly every Stat line from C:SM is different for SW. Now maybe you can tell me how they could be incorporated into C:SM without adding tons of pages.

Lets see: Cut the Psychic Powers, Shield dread is wargear, Frost weapons can be cut, just power weapons + 1 or instead they can upgrade from power weapon for +X points, can cut the relics, FoC/Formations cut, Bloodclaws are just scouts in power armor, and can upgrade to jump packs, Elite scouts are cut, TWC are a unique unit option, helfrost is a unique chapter weapon.

Oh ok, so just cut 95% of what makes them space wolves and turn them into grey space marines. Yes, that makes perfect sense and I'm sure every space wolves player would be thrilled about it. /sarcasm
The psychic powers have been a major part of SW since 5th. Blood claws are not scouts in power armor, they have totally different Stat lines and war gear options. Once again, have you even read the SW codex or are you just pulling stuff out your a--? You just proved everyone's point for them, you could not incorporate space wolves into C:SM without either adding 40 pages just for space wolves or removing everything that makes them a unique faction to begin with.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lets see: Cut the Psychic Powers, Shield dread is wargear, Frost weapons can be cut, just power weapons + 1 or instead they can upgrade from power weapon for +X points, can cut the relics, FoC/Formations cut, Bloodclaws are just scouts in power armor, and can upgrade to jump packs, Elite scouts are cut, TWC are a unique unit option, helfrost is a unique chapter weapon.

Cut, cut, cut, cut and cut.
And you still wonder why people dislike the idea of combining codices?

You ask them to cut everything.
To either delay a new codex for a year or have Space Marines redone when they are just a year old.
You ask people to carry around a 250pg book of which they can ignore 75%
And you ask people to pay nearly double the amount of money for stuff they don't need.

And why? Because you don't like it that they have a separate Codex?
How about we put the Chaos Marines in the Space Marine-Codex and just cut their special units and use a Chapter Trait for their Marks? That would be even easier than adding Blood Angels to the Codex: Space Marines!

 Anpu42 wrote:
I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.

Would this be any different than what every other race currently deals with?

Why is that marines are so special and unique that they need a book for 1000 dudes in power armour, otherwise you'd consider them a multicolored mass of power armour?

There is far more to creating a unique and flavourful marine army than a handful of special rules or wargear. A combined marine book done well would not marginalize marines, if anything, it would open more opportunities for DIY chapters that can dip into more resources from the same book.

I would have one main Space Marine codex, with the other chapters being represented by those virtual codices/dataslates.

Inquisition and Grey Knights.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I see the biggest use with an all Space Marine Codex will be the marginalizing of every Space Marne Chapters.
Everything will become watered down to the point that we might as well just get rid of chapters all together. Space Marines might as well become a giant Multicolored mass of Power Armored Plastic.

Would this be any different than what every other race currently deals with?

Why is that marines are so special and unique that they need a book for 1000 dudes in power armour, otherwise you'd consider them a multicolored mass of power armour?

There is far more to creating a unique and flavourful marine army than a handful of special rules or wargear. A combined marine book done well would not marginalize marines, if anything, it would open more opportunities for DIY chapters that can dip into more resources from the same book.

I am arguing against the Marginalizing of ANY Codex.
Them taking away the Black Templar, Craft World Eldar and Squats were some of the biggest mistakes they ever made. At least they are putting out Mini-Dexs now.
And yes Space Marines are special, they are the core of the game. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space, Black Templars Space Marines are what got most of my local group into playing the game. Not Orks, Nids or even Eldar.

 Anpu42 wrote:

I am arguing against the Marginalizing of ANY Codex.
Them taking away the Black Templar, Craft World Eldar and Squats were some of the biggest mistakes they ever made. At least they are putting out Mini-Dexs now.
And yes Space Marines are special, they are the core of the game. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space, Black Templars Space Marines are what got most of my local group into playing the game. Not Orks, Nids or even Eldar.

A properly done Big Book of Marines wouldn't marginalize any chapter though. Really, all the chapters could be represented easily by some special rules a la Chapter Tactics, a small handful of special characters (no more than three), and a special unit or two. Everything else is shared/common between them.

I don't think rolling in BT was a huge mistake. Rather, it was a good move marred by sub standard execution, which is a common theme for GW.

As for marines being the core of the game, they're certainly the best seller. Its a bit circular though, as pushing more and more marines will sell more marines, which in turn causes them to push more marines to sell more marines. Also, don't confuse your group for any sort of universal truth. My old group had a singular marine player out of a dozen. We had some 5 IG players though.

I don't really think marines are so special as to merit a book for each marginally different chapter.

the removal of a seperate BTs codex, I'm not sure was a mistake, so much as a "hard choice" I think ultimatly GW made the decision because the financials for the codex just wheren't there. basicly it wasn't cost effective to produce a new BT codex.