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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Hey, it's up to each group to determine their own WYSIWYG.

A kHorne bezerker isn't a thousand sun and an ultramarine isn't a raven guard.

I'd agree, but the TSons original paint scheme was red, and KB's and TS' don;t take the same weapons load-outs. Ever.

Actualy for the most part they did take the same equipment before and during the Heresy, there were only small number of units that were unique to each Legion.

That would be WE, Khorne Berzerkers are different, even though they originate from the WE legion.

A few others have narrowed it down.

This isn't about home-brew chapters. Because really, you paint your home-brew and match it to whatever Primarch you want.

Hell, you can even try a few out. Then there is the guy whose chapter magically becomes the newest book or morphs between traits as suits the conditions.

I am not purist, and I understand the difference between wanting to have fun and exploiting the flexibility of your opponents. That said, if you have a White Scar army with all the iconography and the paint scheme, don't deploy it as salamanders just because you want your flamers to be awesome against my orks.

I can't see where people are getting the notion that it discourages people from painting when it is basically the same rules chaos players are forced to operate under or the other races. GW actually gives people what they want, a return to traits that separate the chapters into something unique, and then you have some people who want to try to exploit it by shifting their rules to fit their list and situation each time.

I don't see how tank hunter is a benefit. If you're running dev cents they should have grav cannons. The grav amp already lets you re roll against vehicles. The re rolling 1s on bolters is nice though. The chapter tactics are definitely imbalanced. Fists, scars and UM are pretty useful while the rest seem situational at best and almost totally worthless at worst.

Toofast wrote:
I don't see how tank hunter is a benefit. If you're running dev cents they should have grav cannons. The grav amp already lets you re roll against vehicles. The re rolling 1s on bolters is nice though. The chapter tactics are definitely imbalanced. Fists, scars and UM are pretty useful while the rest seem situational at best and almost totally worthless at worst.

I wouldn't rate UM in the top 3 actually. With White Scars, Iron Hands, Sentinels of Terra, Clan Raukaan, a few of the FW chapter tactics being better (Red Hunters and the rending bolter one specifically). The reason you see UM often is because Tigurius is extremely good, and the UM tactic isn't so bad that it spoils Tigurius's awesomeness.

The best chapter tactics are the only you can min/max to the extreme, and squeeze every ounce out of the tactic possible. That's why White Scars and Sentinels of Terra show so well.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I don't see how tank hunter is a benefit. If you're running dev cents they should have grav cannons. The grav amp already lets you re roll against vehicles. The re rolling 1s on bolters is nice though. The chapter tactics are definitely imbalanced. Fists, scars and UM are pretty useful while the rest seem situational at best and almost totally worthless at worst.

I wouldn't rate UM in the top 3 actually. With White Scars, Iron Hands, Sentinels of Terra, Clan Raukaan, a few of the FW chapter tactics being better (Red Hunters and the rending bolter one specifically). The reason you see UM often is because Tigurius is extremely good, and the UM tactic isn't so bad that it spoils Tigurius's awesomeness.

The best chapter tactics are the only you can min/max to the extreme, and squeeze every ounce out of the tactic possible. That's why White Scars and Sentinels of Terra show so well.

Well, SoT (and really, IF in general) are good because they take the most common weapon type in the entire codex and make it better. There is a baseline assumption that there will be at least 7 bolt weapon users in a 10-man tactical squad, among others. The problem I run into is that I have a hard time NOT taking a bolt weapon of some sort on most of my squads. Even a lot of my vets use combi-weapons so I can still benefit from the TL close range bolters. Like others have said, before, Chapter Tactics really shapes your army a lot, and maybe that is the point.

 Quanar wrote:
Raven Guard tend towards close-ranged shooting and attempted "Terminators in a Scouting Land Raider" shenanigans.

Raven Guard Terminators do not benefit from any of the Raven Guard Chapter Traits.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Whitescars. Almost army wide hit and run is amazing, born in the saddle is pretty awsome too. Add the khan and get scout for all bikes and DTs and you begin to wonder what Raven Guard actually get to make up for all the rest.

Raven Guard. Scout and turn one stealth is ok... nothing in comparison to other CT though. With scout you get outflank so that's a bonus I suppose. The bonus assault marines ger isn't great when you consider how poor assault marines actually are in an assault for 'dedicated' assaulters.

First turn stealth was better in 6ed, where Night Fight rules stacked with it. With the 7ed changes, the Raven Guard Chapter Traits don't add up to a whole lot when compared to Khan and the White Scars. I'd say that they rank last among the First Founding traits, not so sure if they're above or below BT's though.

I prefer the ultra tactics altough there can be nack to using them at the right time. Most of the people I know with marines use the Imperail fist tacticts.

Toofast wrote:
I don't see how tank hunter is a benefit. If you're running dev cents they should have grav cannons.

Tank Hunters is also given to normal Devastator squads.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Raven Guard Terminators do not benefit from any of the Raven Guard Chapter Traits.

Hence why I used the word "shenanigans". A semi-regular thread on the YMDC boards when the 'Dex came out was adding a non-bulky IC to the unit which devolved into debating the use of the word "benefit".

LordBlades wrote:
What about Imperial Fists? ...Tank Hunters for devastators seems pretty powerful to me.

Is that how people are playing that?

To me, that sentence says they have Tank Hunters against buildings, not against vehicles.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Is that how people are playing that?

To me, that sentence says they have Tank Hunters against buildings, not against vehicles.

Either it's two separate benefits (this special rule AND that bonus to a table), or the unit only gets Tank Hunters when actually rolling on the Building Damage table (which is too late).

 DarknessEternal wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
What about Imperial Fists? ...Tank Hunters for devastators seems pretty powerful to me.

Is that how people are playing that?

To me, that sentence says they have Tank Hunters against buildings, not against vehicles.

It says their Dev Squads (Normal and Cent) have Tank Hunters and +1 to the results on the Building Damage Table. Most people, myself included, are taking it as those are two separate items. Meaning they have Tank Hunters (as normal). They also have +1 to the results on the Building Damage Table. Since Tank Hunters normally only affects vehicles, if it was to affect buildings instead (and only buildings) it would have to be worded a lot differently.

Also, it makes a lot of sense that they get Tank Hunters. As Siege Masters, wouldn't it make sense that you would be skilled at taking down Siege Engines (tanks, aircraft, and other vehicles)?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Since Tank Hunters normally only affects vehicles, if it was to affect buildings instead (and only buildings) it would have to be worded a lot differently.

When attacking a building, you treat it as a vehicle unless specified otherwise (rulebook, page 110).

 Quanar wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Since Tank Hunters normally only affects vehicles, if it was to affect buildings instead (and only buildings) it would have to be worded a lot differently.

When attacking a building, you treat it as a vehicle unless specified otherwise (rulebook, page 110).

Huh. Oh well, like you said earlier, the bonuses only make sense if separate.

I say just build the army "Ultra-White Raven-Hand Angel-Scaramanders" then create an icon of a fist wreathed in a U shaped set of wings with fire and lightning in the background.
It might also be worth painting each section of armour a different colour (consistently).

I think that's enough to cover all bases.

Boniface wrote:
I say just build the army "Ultra-White Raven-Hand Angel-Scaramanders" then create an icon of a fist wreathed in a U shaped set of wings with fire and lightning in the background.
It might also be worth painting each section of armour a different colour (consistently).

I think that's enough to cover all bases.

The Super-Ultra-White-Raven-Hand-Angel-Salamander Force. I like it.

 Mumblez wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I say just build the army "Ultra-White Raven-Hand Angel-Scaramanders" then create an icon of a fist wreathed in a U shaped set of wings with fire and lightning in the background.
It might also be worth painting each section of armour a different colour (consistently).

I think that's enough to cover all bases.

The Super-Ultra-White-Raven-Hand-Angel-Salamander Force. I like it.

Don't be ridiculous. It is Ultra Dark Iron Scar Raven Blood Salamander Wolf Fists. If you haven't seen an Ultra Dark Scar Raven Blood Salamander Wolf, you sure as heck don't want to see his fist.

Oh, and their chapter colors are gray on gray, with gray aquilla. They also are one of the only chapters with gray lenses on their helmets.

 PhillyT wrote:
A few others have narrowed it down.

This isn't about home-brew chapters. Because really, you paint your home-brew and match it to whatever Primarch you want.

Hell, you can even try a few out. Then there is the guy whose chapter magically becomes the newest book or morphs between traits as suits the conditions.

I am not purist, and I understand the difference between wanting to have fun and exploiting the flexibility of your opponents. That said, if you have a White Scar army with all the iconography and the paint scheme, don't deploy it as salamanders just because you want your flamers to be awesome against my orks.

I can't see where people are getting the notion that it discourages people from painting when it is basically the same rules chaos players are forced to operate under or the other races. GW actually gives people what they want, a return to traits that separate the chapters into something unique, and then you have some people who want to try to exploit it by shifting their rules to fit their list and situation each time.

The difference is that in Chaos, the various marks/gifts are all wargear that you have to pay for. And some are more expensive than others. Chapter Tactics costs nothing.

Let's say you were allowed to pick your warlord trait instead of having to roll for it. Would you get angry at someone for sometimes playing different warlord traits with the same HQ model?

I can see being annoyed if you were in some kind of narrative campaign and the marine player changed his tactics every game to counter his opponent, but in every other instance I don't see the problem with it. I change my chapter tactics all the time in pickup games, just because sometimes it's fun to play in different ways.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
A few others have narrowed it down.

This isn't about home-brew chapters. Because really, you paint your home-brew and match it to whatever Primarch you want.

Hell, you can even try a few out. Then there is the guy whose chapter magically becomes the newest book or morphs between traits as suits the conditions.

I am not purist, and I understand the difference between wanting to have fun and exploiting the flexibility of your opponents. That said, if you have a White Scar army with all the iconography and the paint scheme, don't deploy it as salamanders just because you want your flamers to be awesome against my orks.

I can't see where people are getting the notion that it discourages people from painting when it is basically the same rules chaos players are forced to operate under or the other races. GW actually gives people what they want, a return to traits that separate the chapters into something unique, and then you have some people who want to try to exploit it by shifting their rules to fit their list and situation each time.

The difference is that in Chaos, the various marks/gifts are all wargear that you have to pay for. And some are more expensive than others. Chapter Tactics costs nothing.

Let's say you were allowed to pick your warlord trait instead of having to roll for it. Would you get angry at someone for sometimes playing different warlord traits with the same HQ model?

I can see being annoyed if you were in some kind of narrative campaign and the marine player changed his tactics every game to counter his opponent, but in every other instance I don't see the problem with it. I change my chapter tactics all the time in pickup games, just because sometimes it's fun to play in different ways.

Except that, like the difference between a khorne bezerker and a plague marine, there are physical differences in the representation of the models. If you have your army painted as a specific, known chapter, it sort of stands to reason that it is the chapter in question. Using Khorne bezerkers and thousand sons makes no more sense than using an army painted as ultramarines and claiming they are imperial fists. It isn't a case of what you see is what you get. If your group or club is fine with that, whatever. I was simply saying that here, in our gaming community, if you have an army, it is that army. It was fun watching armies jump from one book to another as new books came out and out performed old. Blood Wolf Angel Mainres were awesome to see morph through time...

 PhillyT wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
A few others have narrowed it down.

This isn't about home-brew chapters. Because really, you paint your home-brew and match it to whatever Primarch you want.

Hell, you can even try a few out. Then there is the guy whose chapter magically becomes the newest book or morphs between traits as suits the conditions.

I am not purist, and I understand the difference between wanting to have fun and exploiting the flexibility of your opponents. That said, if you have a White Scar army with all the iconography and the paint scheme, don't deploy it as salamanders just because you want your flamers to be awesome against my orks.

I can't see where people are getting the notion that it discourages people from painting when it is basically the same rules chaos players are forced to operate under or the other races. GW actually gives people what they want, a return to traits that separate the chapters into something unique, and then you have some people who want to try to exploit it by shifting their rules to fit their list and situation each time.

The difference is that in Chaos, the various marks/gifts are all wargear that you have to pay for. And some are more expensive than others. Chapter Tactics costs nothing.

Let's say you were allowed to pick your warlord trait instead of having to roll for it. Would you get angry at someone for sometimes playing different warlord traits with the same HQ model?

I can see being annoyed if you were in some kind of narrative campaign and the marine player changed his tactics every game to counter his opponent, but in every other instance I don't see the problem with it. I change my chapter tactics all the time in pickup games, just because sometimes it's fun to play in different ways.

Except that, like the difference between a khorne bezerker and a plague marine, there are physical differences in the representation of the models. If you have your army painted as a specific, known chapter, it sort of stands to reason that it is the chapter in question. Using Khorne bezerkers and thousand sons makes no more sense than using an army painted as ultramarines and claiming they are imperial fists. It isn't a case of what you see is what you get. If your group or club is fine with that, whatever. I was simply saying that here, in our gaming community, if you have an army, it is that army. It was fun watching armies jump from one book to another as new books came out and out performed old. Blood Wolf Angel Mainres were awesome to see morph through time...

Unless of course you dictate the fluff and make it interesting.

Those thousand sons aren't thousand sons, they are in reality Iron Warriors with powerful Warp bolters that consume their souls with each shot, needing to be led by a sorcerer as a result of their bodies flickering in and out of the warp.

On the topic of using models painted or marked as (say) Ultramarines as Imperial Fists, discuss that with your opponent before the game. Everyone may have a different idea about what is fun, and so on. I don't have a problem with it. That's 100 times easier for me to accept than "This lascannon is a missile launcher and this lascannon is a meltagun".

 PhillyT wrote:


...lazy.

If a person is so competitive...

min max their traits to beat the opponents....

It's all so desparate...

PhillyT, your group has a certain way of doing things. You all enjoy it? Great! Congratulations to you and your group. But don't throw around gak like this. Check your ego at the door.

 PhillyT wrote:


Except that, like the difference between a khorne bezerker and a plague marine, there are physical differences in the representation of the models. If you have your army painted as a specific, known chapter, it sort of stands to reason that it is the chapter in question. Using Khorne bezerkers and thousand sons makes no more sense than using an army painted as ultramarines and claiming they are imperial fists. It isn't a case of what you see is what you get. If your group or club is fine with that, whatever. I was simply saying that here, in our gaming community, if you have an army, it is that army. It was fun watching armies jump from one book to another as new books came out and out performed old. Blood Wolf Angel Mainres were awesome to see morph through time...

You don't play ultramarines but 'claim' they are Imperial Fists. You're playing Ultramarines, but you're using an interchangeable variant rule in the codex you own. You're not suggesting that a bunch of Imperial Fists snuck onto Macragge and looted the armory. Chapter Tactics didn't even exist until a year ago, acting like playing Ultramarines with Bolter Drill is some kind of absurd sacrilege that you can't understand is ridiculous.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
A few others have narrowed it down.

This isn't about home-brew chapters. Because really, you paint your home-brew and match it to whatever Primarch you want.

Hell, you can even try a few out. Then there is the guy whose chapter magically becomes the newest book or morphs between traits as suits the conditions.

I am not purist, and I understand the difference between wanting to have fun and exploiting the flexibility of your opponents. That said, if you have a White Scar army with all the iconography and the paint scheme, don't deploy it as salamanders just because you want your flamers to be awesome against my orks.

I can't see where people are getting the notion that it discourages people from painting when it is basically the same rules chaos players are forced to operate under or the other races. GW actually gives people what they want, a return to traits that separate the chapters into something unique, and then you have some people who want to try to exploit it by shifting their rules to fit their list and situation each time.

The difference is that in Chaos, the various marks/gifts are all wargear that you have to pay for. And some are more expensive than others. Chapter Tactics costs nothing.

Let's say you were allowed to pick your warlord trait instead of having to roll for it. Would you get angry at someone for sometimes playing different warlord traits with the same HQ model?

I can see being annoyed if you were in some kind of narrative campaign and the marine player changed his tactics every game to counter his opponent, but in every other instance I don't see the problem with it. I change my chapter tactics all the time in pickup games, just because sometimes it's fun to play in different ways.

Except that, like the difference between a khorne bezerker and a plague marine, there are physical differences in the representation of the models. If you have your army painted as a specific, known chapter, it sort of stands to reason that it is the chapter in question. Using Khorne bezerkers and thousand sons makes no more sense than using an army painted as ultramarines and claiming they are imperial fists. It isn't a case of what you see is what you get. If your group or club is fine with that, whatever. I was simply saying that here, in our gaming community, if you have an army, it is that army. It was fun watching armies jump from one book to another as new books came out and out performed old. Blood Wolf Angel Mainres were awesome to see morph through time...

How about my suggestion? They are Ultramarines...6th and 9th Company, made from only Tactical and Devastator specialists respectively. The Captain of the 6th ensures high discipline and precision with their bolters, and the 9th Company are all experienced Devastator specialists, having spent long careers learning how to crack tanks and bunkers open and pilot Centurions.

Guys its pointless. PhillyT and his group play their way. We all play our own way. At the end of the day we're all having fun eh?

The answer:

No matter what colour your army is, no matter what they were in the last game, they're always, truthfully, the Alpha Legion.

 kitch102 wrote:
The answer:

No matter what colour your army is, no matter what they were in the last game, they're always, truthfully, the Alpha Legion.

I am Alpharius.





More seriously, there is no wrong way to play the game as long as everyone does so to have fun, so can we move on past the argument of which way to play is right or not?

 kronk wrote:
On the topic of using models painted or marked as (say) Ultramarines as Imperial Fists, discuss that with your opponent before the game. Everyone may have a different idea about what is fun, and so on. I don't have a problem with it. That's 100 times easier for me to accept than "This lascannon is a missile launcher and this lascannon is a meltagun".

 PhillyT wrote:


...lazy.

If a person is so competitive...

min max their traits to beat the opponents....

It's all so desparate...

PhillyT, your group has a certain way of doing things. You all enjoy it? Great! Congratulations to you and your group. But don't throw around gak like this. Check your ego at the door.

If you take a look back, you will see that more than once I clearly stated that was the way my group played it and that if another group played it a different way, good for them. I never claimed that was how everyone should be playing it. You took the time to grab some quotes, but perhaps you missed that.

Let me state it again to be more clear: My group views chapter traits as linked to the chapter itself. If you have an ultramarine army, it is an ultramarine army. If you have a successor not listed to a specific chapter, then pick whatever one you feel like and go with it. It was a response to people using whatever traits fit the game and in many cases, people jumping books as power creep introduced better books.