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Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





I do not mind a sprinkle of cheese but a bowl full ya that's a little much. Which is normally followed by a 5 gallon bucket from me next torney ill they cut it out then ill return to the nice guy.

Some Must Be Told. Others Must Be Shown.
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Dakka Veteran




In that case is it okay to counter cheese with cheese ?

Like if some one takes 3 wraith, dreadknight , riptide is it okay to bring out then stompa and dread mob cheese or drop pod melta spam cheese or something like that or will you become lactose intolerant from that much cheese ?
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







The Imperial Answer wrote:
In that case is it okay to counter cheese with cheese ?

Like if some one takes 3 wraith, dreadknight , riptide is it okay to bring out then stompa and dread mob cheese or drop pod melta spam cheese or something like that or will you become lactose intolerant from that much cheese ?


Rule of thumb whoever cheeses first is the one considered to be (for want of not saying TFG) the one at fault, go ahead and customize a list to stomp them. Just be careful not to enter a arms race.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






Quickjager wrote:
The Imperial Answer wrote:
In that case is it okay to counter cheese with cheese ?

Like if some one takes 3 wraith, dreadknight , riptide is it okay to bring out then stompa and dread mob cheese or drop pod melta spam cheese or something like that or will you become lactose intolerant from that much cheese ?


Rule of thumb whoever cheeses first is the one considered to be (for want of not saying TFG) the one at fault, go ahead and customize a list to stomp them. Just be careful not to enter a arms race.


If someone dislikes cheese lists, the answer isn't to do the same thing. No one is required to accept a game and if a player calls something cheese to the point that it actually affects their enjoyment of the game itself, they should just walk away. Not be a part of the same problem that they see and escalate the issue they have with the game. If going cheese makes it fun again, then sure, tailor a list and have at it, but only if that makes it fun again.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
The Imperial Answer wrote:
In that case is it okay to counter cheese with cheese ?

Like if some one takes 3 wraith, dreadknight , riptide is it okay to bring out then stompa and dread mob cheese or drop pod melta spam cheese or something like that or will you become lactose intolerant from that much cheese ?


Rule of thumb whoever cheeses first is the one considered to be (for want of not saying TFG) the one at fault, go ahead and customize a list to stomp them. Just be careful not to enter a arms race.


If someone dislikes cheese lists, the answer isn't to do the same thing. No one is required to accept a game and if a player calls something cheese to the point that it actually affects their enjoyment of the game itself, they should just walk away. Not be a part of the same problem that they see and escalate the issue they have with the game. If going cheese makes it fun again, then sure, tailor a list and have at it, but only if that makes it fun again.


Beautiful words, good sir.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Does the lore encourage cheese then ? A lot of the things I'm hearing are spammed on the tabletop, they utilize extensively in the lore. Eldar wraith construct war hosts, mass battlesuit drops, imperial guard tank heavy offensives. I've even heard of an ork warlord using stompa spam to defeat imperial knights in the lore.

Also can cheese be thematic ? I notice one army formation called a "dreadmob" can be nothing but ork walkers of every kind and can be accuratly presented by only that. Also I've heard of an imperial guard army list that is nothing but tanks (including as troops).

Is the lore and theme to blame for cheese or is it just the person ?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Really a lot of so called "cheese" are people who refuse to adapt their lists or armies or just are afraid of what they have not faced, in my experience anyway.

19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Toofast wrote:
Cheese is often used to refer to a unit that can be countered in a variety of ways, but said person crying "cheese" either cannot figure out or chooses not to run the counters because it gives them something to complain about. For example, wave serpents, lords of war, daemon summoning, flyers, etc. A long time ago (2nd edition), named characters were "cheese". Then we progressed through to 3rd and 4th where high AV was "cheese", 5th where rhino/razor spam was "cheese", 6th where flyers were "cheese" and now we have 7th where anything above average power level is called cheese by casual fluffhammer players who refuse to change the list they've been running since 4th edition. Unbound, lords of war, multiple CAD, Flyer heavy armies, drop pod spam, wave serpents, wraithknights, riptides, imperial knights, all cheese and should be banned!

/rant


IMO

Simply put cheese and cheese unit/combinations are usually the opposite of fun - or at least for one side - if you like crushing you opponent as quickly as possible then Cheese is the way to go. Personally I like games with back and forth and both sides killing loads. This only works with Cheese units if both sides have taken them - and sometimes then

People who always spam the most effective/broken/OP/Cheesy (choose your expression) lists often complain as much or more about the fact that they are called out on this - especially in a non competitive environment. It does seem these days that if you dare to question the balance for a given unit - plenty of people scream that they are being nerfed or the rules are right - usually as it might reduce their ability to steam roller opponents - such a shame.

They also usually spout out "that everything can be countered" - usually only by spamming the exact same units - or writing your list when you have seen what your opponent is fielded

Cheese is simply something that is obviously (to any normal player) just too good and usually where simply using lots of them is the easiest and most effective way or winning the game in the shortest possible way with the least amount of interaction and fun for your opponent. Most players know which units "cheese" units are and are able to tailor their list to the type of game they are playing so everyone can have fun, a few prefer to hide behind the "rules say its fine - deal with it" arguments but this can and often is counter productive in a non tournament environment. Its not exclusive to 40K - all games have their OP units or broken combinations and its up to the player to deal with the repercussions of balance issues this how they choose.

Wave Serpents are a classic example of cheese - they are understood by pretty much everyone (except a few Eldar players) to be way too good, have no weaknesses (recently buffed yet again by 7th ed) and are constantly seen in large numbers - (although this is also partly due them being the only DT for Eldar) - I choose not to use them in my Eldar lists for that reason unless the opponent wants a competitive game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 10:06:01


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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Audacious Atalan Jackal



UK

Is the green tide a cheese unit? Because it have to use 10x repeat BoyZ mob. I thought it is fun.



 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Solidcrash wrote:
Is the green tide a cheese unit? Because it have to use 10x repeat BoyZ mob. I thought it is fun.


Don't know not used it or played against it yet - its certainly very Orky - but then Wave Serpents are also fluffy but broken.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Quickjager wrote:


If someone dislikes cheese lists, the answer isn't to do the same thing. No one is required to accept a game and if a player calls something cheese to the point that it actually affects their enjoyment of the game itself, they should just walk away. Not be a part of the same problem that they see and escalate the issue they have with the game. If going cheese makes it fun again, then sure, tailor a list and have at it, but only if that makes it fun again.


So everyone has to play eldar or an anti eldar list, as all other lists are weaker. No other table top game, I have ever seen enforced that kind of a game play.

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Mr Morden wrote:

Wave Serpents are a classic example of cheese - they are understood by pretty much everyone (except a few Eldar players) to be way too good, have no weaknesses (recently buffed yet again by 7th ed) and are constantly seen in large numbers - (although this is also partly due them being the only DT for Eldar) - I choose not to use them in my Eldar lists for that reason unless the opponent wants a competitive game.


My friend at my local store plays Chaos Marines and then got into Eldar as his second army awhile back. He entered a league, playing what he enjoys seeing on the table (Wraithknight, 3~ Wave Serpents, Night Spinner, Fire Prism, bikes, ext.), and anyone who played him didn't have fun. He actually felt BAD. Like, what do you do in that situation? So, ever since 7th when he started playing the game again, he's been using infantry heavy lists, not using and Wave Serpents, and no wraith units. He's gotten his ass handed to him numerous times by simple lists of other things, but he's had fun.

It's the people that in friendly games never change their list and play the spammiest/most "cheesiest" thing, and those are the games I turn down frequently.

40k:
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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

What makes it difficult is that a true "competitive gamer" wants a close game even at the expense of a handicap.
If you stomp/table all over your opponent or get stomped = no fun.

Those who find fun in the overwhelming win may say what they want but it is the WAAC player who will never throttle back the cheese.

It is the nail-biter that is the fun part and cheese is only good when facing the same.
Sometimes I feel like showing the 5 or 6 lists of "here is what I could have brought" vs the more balanced lists hoping to get a longer more difficult game in.

Cheese is fine if your opponent knows it is coming or you will get wine(ing).

When it is a to the death cage match on a rotating table with blades like Flash Gordon then there is no better list to bring.

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Everyone complains about wave serpents. I took out 3 of them on the first turn the last time I faced eldar. Drop pods with 2 melta and a sgt with combi melta ruin their day. That's not the only way to beat them either, just the one I found most effective in my codex. I also learned that if I build my list to take on IK and wave serpents, it does very well against anything other than a massive horde. Even then it fares pretty well due to volume of fire, great assault and a flyer that's tough to deal with. Point is, you can build a TAC list that does well against the top tier armies and doesn't suffer much against other play styles. If you choose not to, expect to lose some games.
   
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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Whats' weird as a phrase it's been around for like as long as I can remember playing 40k , so 20 years. Dunno even where that came from.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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Infiltrating Prowler






 Talizvar wrote:

Fortifications =


Really? O_o
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Its probably from the 90s



Dangerously cheesy

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Rust belt

It's not easy being cheesy... Maybe it came from that Cheetos ad?
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





On this topic I would offer this.
These two pictures are so equivalent.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Nuff said.


Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Made in ca
Monstrous Master Moulder



Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons

Skaven are cheesy.... Cause they are rats....But that's not 40k

Im surprised you didn't understand what cheesy was lol
I still think its a better word than "beardy" I've read that on the forums before and that's dumb....what's wrong with beards? Nothing only real men have beards (me included haha)
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 Zewrath wrote:
 Talizvar wrote:

Fortifications =
Really? O_o
Like with everything listed, it depends.
Example: Fortress of redemption used by Dark Eldar as something to hide raiders behind.
Set up the building blocking a corner of the table (no rules how close to edges) and entrance in blocked-off area (no access unless skimmer or jump troops).
I cannot remember, will have to check if that huge Macro-cannon was a LoW or not.

Anyway, the "cheese" label I am pretty sure was applied to anything you were not expecting and do not have a good answer for.
I pretty much figure in 40k unless you create a scenario, this happens all the time.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Wave serpents,... I have a hard time calling cheese on them, yes they are way to good for the points but its also kinda not fair to badger eldar players for it since its there only dedicated transport. I mean at 2000 points your average marine list is going to have 2 or 3 razor back and 3 or 4 pods. Tau will have 4 to 6 devil fish most likely. Orks will have more trucks and wagons than you can shake a stick so will dark eldar ; raiders that is. so is it really fair to expect eldar players not to use their only transport, if 4 or 5 hit the table at 2000 points its the same number or less than most other armies put down at that points level.

Yeah they could run all bikes spiders and warwalkers but is that really any better than wave serpents?

fellblade wrote:Always buy ugly dice. Pretty dice think it's enough that they look good; ugly dice put out.
 
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

They shouldn't have to field them - thats another GW cockup that just compounds both the problem, is unfair to most Eldar players and gives some an excuse - "Oh I have to field 5 of them - its not my fault"

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Skaven are cheesy.... Cause they are rats....But that's not 40k

Im surprised you didn't understand what cheesy was lol
I still think its a better word than "beardy" I've read that on the forums before and that's dumb....what's wrong with beards? Nothing only real men have beards (me included haha)


Beardy was a term that GW used to use in their rulebooks way back when to described players who bent/broke the rules, modelled for advantage etc.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

Equivalents that I recall from DnD games: a monk sorcerer paladin enlightened fist. Stupid good AC, saves, evasion, and self buffing for all situations, as well as PUNCHING WITH DISINTEGRATES.
The entire chameleon prestige class. Could get caster level 20 spells as early as level 16, and pull from any source allowed. "What there's a cool paladin spell somewhere in the back of that thin little splat book that no one has? Got it!"
A trick I theory built with a 2 fighter 4 duskblade that could cast true strike, then charge someone with power attack, leap attack, and combat expertise all active. He would hit on anything but a 1 for over 50-60 damage, and his AC would go UP for the round.
And then of course the craziest internet builds like pun pun and the guy who jumps 400 feet and instantly has an army of fanatic civilians willing to fight to the death for him.

In 40k I would say that null deployment armies are a bit cheesy, as well as accurate deep strikers with excessively good shooting that you don't really get to respond to until after the damage has been done. IE Farsight bomb, and pod sternguard to a lesser extent.
I don't think riptides are cheesy, just undercosted by like 75 points.

It boggles my mind how they think assault from deep strike is OP and shouldn't be allowed, but fully accurate shooting wiping your units without getting a word in edgewise somehow isn't the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 20:21:02


20000+ points
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Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Skaven are cheesy.... Cause they are rats....But that's not 40k

Im surprised you didn't understand what cheesy was lol
I still think its a better word than "beardy" I've read that on the forums before and that's dumb....what's wrong with beards? Nothing only real men have beards (me included haha)

I always assumed it was a reference to Dwarfs as their Rune system in the ancient editions allowed for some really unpleasant combos.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

Nah, the beardiest list in that era was Da Statue Makerz, which was a legal list with somthing like 12 Night Goblin shamans riding Cockatrices.



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