What to do when nobody wants to play your games...

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**Vertrucio**

We've already said what you need to do. Build and paint 2 small armies and play them in store, invite people for demos, and make it a positive experience.

Wallowing in anger is more likely to ostracize you than help.

Just talking about a game, especially one not released yet means nothing. Do what needs to be done.

**OldSkoolGoff**

Well the solution is simple. Kill the Alpha Gamer.

**Talizvar**

OldSkoolGoff wrote:
Well the solution is simple. Kill the Alpha Gamer.

Or better yet, treat him like a beta.
It is all about attitude.
Usually "alpha" just means being willing to use a louder voice or be opinionated and be willing to say "that sucks" at any idea not yours.
Keeping an eye on what he purchases and anticipating his switch to another game is a fun hobby:

.
Have fun, no killing anyone unless they really, really, need it as a life lesson.

**FabricatorGeneralMike**

OldSkoolGoff wrote:
Well the solution is simple. Kill the Alpha Gamer.

Well, murder isn't a crime but getting caught is

What I would suggest to the op is to either, watch tons of CSI, make some friends that work in forensic crime lab along with some police officers, build up years of trust then jokingly ask them how they would commit the perfect murder.... but I believe the easier solution would be to just build up a few starter forces some terrain from the game you wish you to play and play it with your friend. Once people see you two having fun and a good time and not doing what 'everyone' else is doing they will be intersted....trust me...it works...

Now if I could just do that with a few friends for tomorrows war and infinity....

**Dark Severance**

What is wrong with running Firestorm as the space game and then Dropzone as the ground game?

We used to do multiple campaigns with solar systems, planetary conquest, raiding for resources combining multiple wargames. What was bid and played in battle and lost, resulting in those forces being lost. Some could be salvaged or retrieved and we used players across the board.

Usually Full Thrust and Gothic was what we did for space battles. And ground combat usually revolved around Warhammer, Battletech or Dirtside. It really was dependent on what players had. We were able to get more players involved because it didn't require new players to buy a complete new set. There was enough to spread around. If someone needed a space fleet, I'd let them use mine while I was at the store doing a ground combat mission.

**Big P**

Farplane,

You in Ireland?

**Surtur**

Just wait for the starter to come out next month. Run as many demo games as you can to raise interest. I originally liked DZC but I was turned off by the prices hovering around flames of war levels. I have the exact opposite reaction to the planets all models that most people in the thread seems to have because if I had seen these i wouldn't take another look at DZC. If you want to play planetfall, it's on you to get the community going. I've done some community building and it can be very discouraging to start but you'll find that the longer you are persistent the better it becomes.

**privateer4hire**

Breaking a new game into a community is always a bit of a crapshoot. Sometimes a game will take off right away. Other times it can take a year or two of solid demo gaming to get anybody to bite. And sometimes nobody will touch a game even if you provide both sides for a fight. There's a reason that so many players look for AI and solo-play in rule sets.

**OldSkoolGoff**

privateer4hire wrote:
Breaking a new game into a community is always a bit of a crapshoot. Sometimes a game will take off right away. Other times it can take a year or two of solid demo gaming to get anybody to bite. And sometimes nobody will touch a game even if you provide both sides for a fight. There's a reason that so many players look for AI and solo-play in rule sets.

Imo it all comes down to the IP. The reason X-Wing has taken over in my town is because it offers an IP that people fanboy over just as much as 40K. I've met grown men, like in their 30s-40s who were positively giddy that they got to play a game as Boba Fett. Like fangirl giddy. As someone who, even as a kid, thought Star Wars was slowed, I don't see the appeal. A Gremlins game, though? I would be all over that gak. Or Goonies. Or Monster Squad. Or Indiana Jones.

That's why, to me, X-Wing is such a threat. When you try to introduce someone to a new game, like, for example, the Mantic ones, they look at the models and either love or hate them, then they look at the fluff and the universe the game takes place in and either love or hate it.

With X-Wing, people already like the models and already like the fluff so it's easy. It's appealing to everyone from casuals to hardcores, right off the bat because they're familiar with Star Wars.

When I tried to get my Fantasy group, who bitched CONSTANTLY about 8th ed, into Kings of War, which imo, is a far better rules set, the biggest issue was they felt the Mantic models were a rip-off of the GW models and that only some of the factions (notably Orcs and Undead) actually had good looking models (and even then that was split). We never ever really got to discussing the rules (which were the issue they had with WHFB in the first place).

Because as much as people bitch and moan that GW games aren't balanced, they originally got into it because they liked the models and they liked the lore. And the best ruleset ever could drop out of the clouds from heaven tomorrow and if it had ugly models and bad fluff, no one would want to play it.

**privateer4hire**

Good points. Solid/already popular IP really helps sell a game.

That said, I've had challenges getting WFB players to play Kings of War using their WFB stuff. I've given away skads of free mini KoW rulebooks to WFB gamers and ultimately most of them won't be bothered to look at anything beyond GW.

They know, rightly, that if they walk into a store that sells WFB (and even better if they play 40k and the store sells 40k) they've got a good shot of getting somebody who plays their game. KoW is a niche within a niche within a crevice of a niche

Heck, I offered to give away 2 free dreadball teams to anybody who would just play in our DB league. No money, just a commitment to try to play one day per week for a 6 week period within definite end. One guy claimed a free team but didn't even show the first time (or ever) to collect it. Another guy claimed a free team and showed up 2-3 times before the league ended.

If you're trying to sell something that's not Coke or Pepsi, it's going to be an uphill job. Add into that the fact that communities differ slightly from one state or even city to another. One place Infinity may be all the rage while Malifaux gets no love (where this may be reversed 1/2 hour drive away).

**FeindusMaximus**

Come to the "light" side Luke (DzC). Leave that "Dark side" (GW products), you it is true no matter how much you want to da'nile it.

**Davor**

FeindusMaximus wrote:
Come to the "light" side Luke (DzC). Leave that "Dark side" (GW products), you it is true no matter how much you want to da'nile it.

I would but I can't get any DzC stuff I want. I guess for what ever reason, distribution or what ever the middleman you call it, will just not deliver the new DzC product.

**FeindusMaximus**

Davor wrote:
FeindusMaximus wrote:
Come to the "light" side Luke (DzC). Leave that "Dark side" (GW products), you it is true no matter how much you want to da'nile it.

I would but I can't get any DzC stuff I want. I guess for what ever reason, distribution or what ever the middleman you call it, will just not deliver the new DzC product.

Try miniature market (check every day) or ebay. I've had to get everything from there.

**Consul Scipio**

I've had the same problem as Davor regarding my FLGS and DzC. I contacted DzC and mentioned to them that the FLGS owner said his distributors either carried ONLY the starter box set or nothing at all. I gave them the owners list of distributors and Hawk Wargames replied back with a larger list but still included his distributors who only carry the large box set. I'm hoping Hawk will contact him directly and they'll work something out. I don't think Hawk quite understands the situation on the ground in the USA regarding the availability of their product.

So like FeindusMaximus I've had to buy from Miniature Market for smaller items. I'm trying to limit that though as I want to buy from my game store. And if the game won't be stocked locally, it won't be successful. <- My opinion as 30 years a gamer experience, doesn't apply to historical games but does for Fantasy/Sci-Fi.

I do love me some DzC though. Really fun game and the miniatures are top quality.

**Davor**

FeindusMaximus wrote:
Davor wrote:
FeindusMaximus wrote:
Come to the "light" side Luke (DzC). Leave that "Dark side" (GW products), you it is true no matter how much you want to da'nile it.

I would but I can't get any DzC stuff I want. I guess for what ever reason, distribution or what ever the middleman you call it, will just not deliver the new DzC product.

Try miniature market (check every day) or ebay. I've had to get everything from there.

Thanks, I might just have to do that. I like to support my FLGS, well not so local but closet one since all the local ones closed down. I am hoping soon they will get something soon, you can only wait for so long.

**Wayniac**

The issue is people are ingrained in it. Especially with GW games, they are almost indoctrinated to the idea that GW is the leader, makes the best games, makes the best figures, and everything else is crap. Yet they gripe about the rules all the time, but aren't willing to broaden their horizons outside of the mothership.

Me personally I'd love to try a variety of games, because I'm interested in a variety of genres. I like WW2 so I'd like to play Bolt Action and/or Flames of War. I'm interested in Napoleonics and the Civil War. I've always like the Ancient World, like Rome and Greece. I do like fantasy and sci-fi genres, but I'd pick Kings of War and Warpath over WHFB and 40k. I have zero interest in something like Dreadball (and I hated Blood Bowl too), but if someone was doing a demo of it I'd probably try it just to try it. X-Wing has really never caught my interest despite being a big Star Wars fan, but I'd give it a shot just to see what it's about.

In most cases though it's always going to be a lot harder to get the regulars at the FLGS to try a new game than if you're part of a gaming club/society/organization where people tend to join specifically because they can sample a variety of games instead of just the same old stuff.

**nobody**

Davor wrote:
FeindusMaximus wrote:
Come to the "light" side Luke (DzC). Leave that "Dark side" (GW products), you it is true no matter how much you want to da'nile it.

I would but I can't get any DzC stuff I want. I guess for what ever reason, distribution or what ever the middleman you call it, will just not deliver the new DzC product.

I'll agree that this is my major issue with DzC so far. I've been waiting for a month now for Raven-As for my troops (UCM) to come back into stock. The distributor my LGS goes through carries the full run of product, and claims that they order every two weeks. I'm not sure if it's Hawk getting overwhelmed with the Resistance orders or something with the distributor.

**Eilif**

WayneTheGame wrote:

In most cases though it's always going to be a lot harder to get the regulars at the FLGS to try a new game than if you're part of a gaming club/society/organization where people tend to join specifically because they can sample a variety of games instead of just the same old stuff.

Very True.

It usually futile to try and convert someone who is already ingrained in a particular game. As folks above have noted, even when they are dissatisfied with their particular game, it can be tough to get them to truely branch out. You've got to find folks that are both dissatisfied enough to break with a system that they have probably invested hundreds or thousands of dollars in, and convince them to move to a system where they will have to drop a bunch of $ on a new game that likely will not make use of any of the minis they have already purchased.

I think the key must be to find folks who already have the same vision for gaming that you do. Folks who have already stepped out side the box. It takes time, but there are people out there who are looking for something new. I have a club of gamers who play games far outside the mainstream gaming world.

One think I would note though. Oftentimes it is the price of games or the limitations of playing with only one brand of minis that some folks get sick of. For those folks, games like DZC (as cool as they are) might not be the answer. Sure it's less than 40k and you can houserule/proxy/etc but it's still an all-in-one game experience that doesn't really encourage out-of-the-box gaming. Our club tends to use games that either have unit creation mechanics (Song of Blades and Heroes, Nuclear Renaisance, Of Gods and Mortals, etc) or games that have a wide variety of army lists covering most any faction (Kings of War). It's not for everyone. You end up making up alot of your own fluff, and there isn't a wider community of gamers sharing in the same "world". However, what you end up with is games with an extremely low cost-of-entry because of the ability to use a variety of used and off-brand miniatures and with that it becomes easier to to play multiple games.

**Vertrucio**

That's not a solution for everyone. It's actually not a solution for the vast majority of gamers and people.

What you're doing is just asking people to do more busywork for people already stretched on time. It works for the types who wanted custom experiences, but for many, playing the games themselves are the recreational activity, and not endlessly kitbashing stuff together just to play.

**Eilif**

Vertrucio wrote:
That's not a solution for everyone. It's actually not a solution for the vast majority of gamers and people.

What you're doing is just asking people to do more busywork for people already stretched on time. It works for the types who wanted custom experiences, but for many, playing the games themselves are the recreational activity, and not endlessly kitbashing stuff together just to play.

I halfway agree with you. The "all-inclusive" model of gaming works well for many folks, the game is the focus for many gamers and having a built-in gaming community is a huge benefit. I actually wrote a whole blog post about this called "In Praise of Warhammer"
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/06/in-praise-of-warhammer-40000-and-games.html

Still, I think that "not a solution for the vast majority" might be stretching just a bit. Maybe not for the majority, but I think there are alot of gamers who -if they could find a group of likeminded folks- would really enjoy the out-of-the-box experience. Certainly the chatter on Dakka indicates that there's a fair amount of discontent with the status quo.

Besides, it's not "endlessly kitibashing", rather it's many cases it's just using you already have with different rules. Our club started it's own setting years ago and as we game it slowly gets added to. It's not a chore, it's simply playing games and seeing what happens. We've been playing Song of Blades and Heroes for almost 5 years now and with free updates when a new edition is released and the ability to incorporate whatever minis might catch a member's eye, it's an experience I think that many gamers would enjoy.

**Sienisoturi**

Farplane wrote:
For a number of months my group of friends has been talking about wanting linked campaigns where your battlefleet gothic games could lead to an Epic scale invasion game and that in turn had an impact on a 40k game down the line. All tried and true, and par for the course. The obvious impediment? Well Gothic and Epic no longer exist for new players.

So we turned to other manufacturers and I got some interest in the group for Firestorm Armada which is a game I absolutely love, and I was able to leverage the coming of Planetfall, their 10mm ground combat system which is launching this month (a bit earlier than anticipated) as a way to get some interest going. I’ve been a fan of Firestorm for a while, I like Spartan’s rules so I’m reasonably confident Planetfall will be a great ruleset. I ran a few demo games of Firestorm in the gaming store, a couple of small fleet actions and that was enough to get people to start planning out fleets. They liked the game mechanics and so were looking forward to Planetfall.

All seemed well and people were even more interested when they found out Spartan planned to release some 28mm ground troops next year. That’s the dream, the trifecta, the three game types would be there in one universe! Hallelujah!

Then… Our resident Alpha Gamer, decided he liked the look of Dropzone Commander and within a week, my months of laying the groundwork for 10mm planetfall, and my beloved Firestorm Armada came to a screeching halt. I had made things so easy for our Alpha Gamer to swoop in and extol the virtues of DZC. People were already interested in 10mm and this was available now, not in a few months, NOW!

Being the Alpha Gamer he had a starter set the next week after whipping up some interest and was running demo games. That was it, I knew I had lost. Planetfall was still three months away at this stage and he had half of those who had expressed an interest already planning DZC armies. I tried to hold out, Me and one other guy were 100% behind Planetfall and Firestorm, but then a few days ago I was told in no uncertain terms that DZC had won the war and it would be just the two of us playing it, everyone else was jumping on the DZC bandwagon. But “don’t worry” I was told, Hawk Wargames have Andy Chambers working on a space combat game to go alongside it. So that should suit me… Nevermind that this space game had a completely undisclosed release date when Planetfall would be out in October this year and we could have two of the three desired system types… Everyone in the group liked the aesthetics for Firestorm and Planetfall. I hate the aesthetics of DZC, can’t stand anything except the PHR and I have no reason to think the aesthetics of their space game will be any better and while the agreement is that Spartan have nicer models, DZC was getting the groups dollars!

It’s my own fault; our Alpha Gamer had no interest in 10mm until I sold him on Planetfall. My plan was so simple, get the Alpha Gamer interested and the group will follow. And boy, was I right! They just followed him to the wrong damn game.

I have no interest in DZC, but I’m questioning whether my lack of interest is really just because I prefer Planetfalls aesthetic (which I do) or if I am just bitter about not getting my way… I won’t lie and say I wasn’t pissed off about it, but I can’t force people to play the game I want nor would I want to play someone who was there because he was forced into it.

So from a potential group of 8 interested players, there are now two of us with Firestorm Armada and plans to get Planetfall and we were talking recently about whether we should just join them in DZC. Is it better to play a game we aren’t really bothered with to play with our friends or should we play the game we want to. For me it’s easy, I can afford both systems, I could do both if I wanted to, but the other guy isn’t in the same position, it’s one or the other for him. Is it fair to tie him to planetfall when his only opponent will be me… Should I just accept we are beaten and play the game I don’t want to so that he at least has others to play against?

That’s my question, and I think the answer is pretty clear. I should bow out and let my stalwart ally go to this new crappy ass game (sorry, that’s the bitterness talking… )

But to be honest, I think that’s just going to be it for me. I don’t like DZC so I won’t play it. I stopped playing 40k and that is the other major system in the store. I don’t see the point in playing something I don’t like, I did that for the last three years with 40k.

I think this is it for me and miniature wargaming… man, that’s a scary thought, I’ve been doing this for 18 years and I still love it. The wargaming scene here just isn’t that big and the games I like seem to be the wrong games so what’s a guy to do?

This has already probably been said, but couldn't you play both games and use the same models?

**frozenwastes**

Vertrucio wrote:
That's not a solution for everyone. It's actually not a solution for the vast majority of gamers and people.

What you're doing is just asking people to do more busywork for people already stretched on time. It works for the types who wanted custom experiences, but for many, playing the games themselves are the recreational activity, and not endlessly kitbashing stuff together just to play.

The sad fact is that most people want their hobby spoon fed to them. They often also want to get everything from as few sources as possible. The complete package approach that GW offered has been successfully replicated by people like Battlefront, Privateer, Warlord Games, etc., where you have the same company selling rules, miniatures, background material and hobby supplies.

I decided to spoiler off a good chunk of this post as it's not for most readers

Spoiler:

The problem is that when one leg of the table proves to be weaker than the other they are stuck. They've never taken ownership of their own hobby and are instead unsatisfied hobby product consumers. Perhaps they'll quit entirely. Perhaps they'll stick around and whine about whatever aspect of the hobby is falling short for them. Very rarely though, will they actually solve their problem. And since they got into this with the expectation of a complete package, they're often very resistant to the idea of replacing the part of their current package that is failing them. And they'll analyze new options that they could use to bolster part of the experience as if it has to replace all of their experience.

Though in the end, it's often what they'll do. A 40k player might switch to Infinity. Or Flames of War or Warmachine and... throw the baby out with the bathwater. They'll just become a wargaming consumer of a new spoon fed package, hoping that this time it doesn't disappoint them.

The hardest thing for them to do is to accept the idea that whatever part of their interest is falling short for them can be replaced and repaired separately from the parts they like. It would only take a fraction of the time and energy spent complaining about GW business practices or bad rules support or an edition change after less than two years to find a rules set and stat something up. But they won't do it.

It's not their fault though. The nature of the industry is largely against them. Take Drop Zone Commander and Firestorm: Planetfall. They each offer both rules and miniatures. Their rules are going to be only for their miniatures and their miniatures are going to be unique enough that substituting other miniatures might not fit with the aesthetic of the game. It's a world away from an "use the figures you want with the rules you want" approach. GW has also done a masterful job of reinforcing this mindset of expecting a complete package.

When I run a game at a local gaming day or con or invite people over for a game, I find it useful to figure out whether they are a hobby product consumer or actually have ownership of their hobby. The consumers respond to my approach of painting up both sides, providing rules, terrain and all needed accessories very, very well. They play and enjoy the game. They are, after all, being given exactly what they want. A complete hobby experience with a minimal of fuss on their end. When I encounter someone who has actually made their hobby their own, they get inspired. They start talking about "what if" this and "I have miniatures that could be cool for" that. They start participating in the building of the game.

I think this may be the key to being an "alpha" wargamer. When you recognize that people are looking to be sold, you accept it. You accept that they can add numbers to the local gaming scene and if you can bring them on side to your game of choice (DZC in the situation described in the OP's situation) you can really get something going. But this is almost always only going to work with a complete package approach. If you're interested in a separation of rules and figures, they'll start to get hesitant unless you do the leg work for them.

Eilif mentioned the idea of creating an atmosphere where the separation of miniatures, rules and background is the norm. I think for this to function you need a core group of people who have taken ownership of their own hobby who then essentially offer a complete experience to the hobby product consumers through invitation to play or the handling of whatever aspect of the process the hobby product consumer feels they don't have time for. You need to get enough like minded people together that those who just want to be sold a complete package aren't setting the tone for what's normal for the club.

Alan Merrit (head of GW IP) was right when he described GW customers as "indulging in their favourite hobby: buying stuff from Games Workshop" For many people, their actual hobby is not miniature wargaming, but just being a hobby product consumer.

**chaos0xomega**

TBH I think alpha did you a favor. Firestorm Armadas rules are fun for all of three games until you realize how basic and dice driven those rules are.

**Vertrucio**

frozenwastes wrote:
The sad fact is that most people want their hobby spoon fed to them.

And this is the sad fact about why this other way of thinking will go nowhere. Your first sentence was to poopoo a large chunk of gamers for not liking what you like.

It is, in essence, the reason why people don't play your games. The whole, "I'm better because I slave away making my own units, rules, and fluff," is exactly the same superiority complex that infects those who think, "I'm better because I follow the GW mantra, collect and buy all the GW things."

My local store used to be pure 40k. Now 40k and Fantasy aren't played outside of tournaments. Everyone, literally everyone has switched to different games. And how we got all those games played was that it was all a positive, encouraging experience of collecting new and cool models together. We all still like the other games in some way.

It also helps that the buy in for various newer games are low.

If you want to start a new game, packaged, or make your own setup, don't even pitch it to the group as you demoing a game. Buy and paint two small armies, get a terrain setup for it and paint that. When you setup a great looking display table, then ask someone to play, it will be hard for anyone to say no.

That's how I got people to try DZC. I didn't even need to paint. Many were already slightly interested, but as soon as the paper buildings hit the table they were in. The only problem was the buy in price, which with the new plastic kits is drastically reduced.

**Nightwolf829**

I know how you feel Farplane. Just conversely. Have been fighting a long uphill battle at my LGS to get people to try DZC. It has taken a long time and a lot of effort, but it has finally paid off. I would suggest that you try DZC if that is what your group is into, but try out Planetfall when it comes out too. If Planetfall is better it should speak for itself, if they are on par you have two good games, and if it is worse then your group made the correct decision after-all. I do think that if you approach DZC with an open mind it will surprise you, but bias and all that.

Regardless, good luck! I have empathy for your situation and know that it sucks. Let us know how things go!

**Eilif**

Frozenwastes,
It's definitely a matter of finding like-minded people. I don't think that the way our club games will ever be the norm, but it can be the norm for a specific group of gamers and I think that's what we've achieved. For example, when we get together to play Nuclear Renaissance this weekend, each player will show up with a warband, likely from different manufacturers, they'll probably have a bit of background if you ask, and it'll be a great game. After the game players will probably discuss the ruleset and whether or not they like it or want to try a different ruleset, the scenario, and how it might be improved. Their warband's performance and how the stats might be upgraded or downgraded, and each others minis and maybe where they can get some similar figs for their own warband.

All this to say, it's a mindset that is very open to the possibility of change. Now most likely, folks will be fine with the rules, scenario, stats and their minis, but it's at least an environment where change is possible and if the group wants to make a change, it won't require a huge outlay of $ for a new game with new figs. If we play a game for a month or so and decide the rules aren't up to snuff, we just get new rules.

Also, I've no desire to try and "convert" those who are happy with their game of choice. What I would like to see is those who are dissatisfied with their current game take action rather than just accept what they've been handed. Maybe dip their toes in something other than a pre-packaged game. It could be as simple as dropping $8 on a copy of SBH to try your fantasy figs in a skirmish game. If you don't like it, you're only out a couple bucks and you can always go back to your old game.

**frozenwastes**

Vertrucio wrote:

And this is the sad fact about why this other way of thinking will go nowhere. Your first sentence was to poopoo a large chunk of gamers for not liking what you like.

It is superior when all aspects of your hobby stand on their own merits. I'm sorry if me saying that offends you, but I'll simply point to the countless examples of when people become dissatisfied with one component of a complete package approach that we see here on Dakka Dakka all the time. The Privateer package turns some people off with its PVC plastic miniatures. GW turns people off with rules issues. Mantic turns people off with sculpts + PVC issues. Battlefront is being forced to adapt to the competition brought on by Plastic Soldier Company shaking their customers from the "one source for everything" mindset. There are many people who realize they can get twice the paint for the money by going with Vallejo rather than Citadel.

Choosing the best rules, miniatures, background fiction and supplies each on their own merit is obviously going to produce better results than just using whatever a company happens to bundle together.

I also happen to think that a lot of gamers out there want the package approach. They want the ease and simplicity of getting everything from one provider. Rules, miniatures, paints, background fiction. They don't want to do the thinking or the work to assemble their own tailor made package of hobby goodness. Those people need to be sold. Like in the OP when he sold them on the idea of 10mm sci-fi and then another gamer swooped in with DZC as the package of rules and miniatures that would meet their desires. GW's approach works for the businesses that use it because there are a lot of gamers out there who just want the least hassle possible. I happen to think that such an approach can be problematic. Like fracturing local communities into those who buy into package X and those who buy into package Y.

It is, in essence, the reason why people don't play your games.

But they do. I invite people and they play. Gaming is a social hobby and concentrating on that rather than expecting people to buy a complete package means more gaming with people I enjoy playing with. My gaming is not dependent on other people and myself both selecting the same commercial package.

If you want to start a new game, packaged, or make your own setup, don't even pitch it to the group as you demoing a game. Buy and paint two small armies, get a terrain setup for it and paint that. When you setup a great looking display table, then ask someone to play, it will be hard for anyone to say no.

This is the approach I have advocated numerous times. Except of course the packaged thing. I think it's a big conflict of interest when your rules providers are also selling you the miniatures. When that happens rules can overvalue or undervalue miniatures with unbalanced rules rather than letting the miniatures stand on their own merits-- how they look, the quality of the casting, the material, etc.,. And on the other hand people can be enthralled by beautiful miniatures and then slog through poorly written rules because they happen to be included as part of the same bundled approach.

It's a crazy idea, I know, having everything stand on its own merits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eilif wrote:It's definitely a matter of finding like-minded people. I don't think that the way our club games will ever be the norm, but it can be the norm for a specific group of gamers and I think that's what we've achieved.

I live in a place with a small fraction of the population of the Chicago area (rural prairie provinces in Canada) and I've still managed to succeed in getting something like you described going (we have 6-8 people show up every meeting and a lot of home gaming and gaming at board game club meetings between then).

All this to say, it's a mindset that is very open to the possibility of change. Now most likely, folks will be fine with the rules, scenario, stats and their minis, but it's at least an environment where change is possible and if the group wants to make a change, it won't require a huge outlay of $ for a new game with new figs. If we play a game for a month or so and decide the rules aren't up to snuff, we just get new rules.

To get back to the OP's question of "What to do when nobody wants to play your games..." I think your approach provides some very clear idea as to what's going on. If you have an approach where the possibility of change of individual elements is on the table, you can change them and address problems. But when you're advocating for complete package games, you end up asking a lot of people in terms of buy in.

It also ends up getting people's backs up. If I show up at a miniature night at a local store that's dominated by Warmachine and start trying to get the people who are playing that to play Flames of War instead, not only am I asking people to switch to another expensive package of miniatures and rules, I'm also directly competing with the development of the Warmachine community in the area. People encounter this exact problem when they go to a 40k night at a sore and wonder why they can't get anyone to try their games. It's a direct threat to the established player base of a game that requires a significant buy in.

Also, I've no desire to try and "convert" those who are happy with their game of choice. What I would like to see is those who are dissatisfied with their current game take action rather than just accept what they've been handed.

Exactly. I don't try to get anyone to stop playing what they are playing. When a package approach is working great for the person, why shouldn't they do what they like? When things go wrong though, I hope that instead of just quitting or subbing in some other package approach someone has sold them that they'll actually look at the components of their hobby and make it their job to find the solutions on their own rather than hoping to be sold an answer. When there's no issue though, there's no reason to advocate for such an approach. Instead I'll just show up with an army made of non-standard miniatures on the off hand chance someone there doesn't know you can do that yet

**FeindusMaximus**

I want to support the LGS too, but when i go to 6 different LGS in town and none carry it. WTF. One does sell it one line, but not in the store?????