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And for the record, this line is just hilarious

Oddnerd wrote:
It has been a while since I played Magic the Gathering, but I wouldn't be surprised if 3 mana could buy you a 10/10 indestructible monster with trample and landwalk at this point.

Or in other words, "I don't know for sure, I've been out of the loop for a while, but I'm just going to assume this is the way things are in MTG now. Aren't you afraid that things in 40k are turning out the way things I only assume are in MTG?"

Ferros wrote:
Just took a quick look at GW's stock from the 2y, 5y, and 10y standpoint.

Whoever is saying they're about to go bankrupt is either going off hearsay or prefers to live in their own imagination.

It's certainly not at a peak, but it's gone through two similar cycles and in this new, third cycle, it is performing much better historically than before.

Stock price is meaningless. An 8% drop in revenue and a 42% drop in profits in a market that has been experiencing unprecedented growth is very telling.

If only the name "Games Workshop" conjures images of erstwhile craftsmen bent over the ruleset, striving for perfection.
That was a loooong time ago, and they've all moved onto other things.

MtG may have become a rolling range of card sets, each making sections of the previous sets obsolete. Or, it was when Slivers first appeared, when I last played.
40k Codex Creep seems to have been based on making unpopular units cheaper or more useful, to get more people to buy them models.
Also, units generally cheaper, to fit more into the battlefield, meaning you need to buy more models than before.
Then, add fliers and fortifications to Super-Heavies. Having more choice is good, but not at the detriment to gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissors is good enough, but adding Lizard and Spock makes the game silly.

koooaei wrote:Cause...well, i don't know. People like to panic and hate.

Or, they just liked the way the game was, and not what it's turned into.

Just because you like Titans and superheavies and giant robots and D-weapons doesn't mean everyone has to. Or that they're "panicking" or "haters". Maybe it's just that 7th Edition is a radical departure from when playing with giant units was for people who liked playing with giant units, and the people who didn't want to play with giant units didn't get berated by the goons who do.

Heck, some of us liked when the game was platoon sized.


Then again, that's why I've played more games of Necromunda in the last month than I have 40K in the last decade, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
GW invested a lot of money back into the business this year, so profit reports could be somewhat deceiving.

What, you mean like the £4000000 they spent on their new website?

Yeah, I'm sure that'll make some great returns...

As a tournament mtg player, I feel the need to interject in its defense. Some of the most powerful cards are also some of the oldest, and they have repeatedly made awesome things like removal and counter spells "just a bit worse" in an ongoing attempt to see how bad they can make them before players won't use them.

The real truth is GW don't actually know what will be far too good and what will be useless.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
40k is fine. The only people who don't think so are those who are butt hurt over the direction of the game... There's more people that like the game, than those that don't. The company is MAKING MONEY. I've never seen more doomsday malarkey over a PROFITABLE company in my life...

40k is fine.

No, it's not. Check the latest two financial reports.

The only people who don't think so are those who are butt hurt over the direction of the game.

Thanks for the insult. (rule #1 anyone?) But if someone doesn't like a game, isn't that the biggest reason to stop playing? It's not a job, research project or charity, it's a game people play for fun. If they no longer find it fun, they stop playing.
Why are you upset about people criticizing your favorite game?

There's more people that like the game, than those that don't.

False. There are over six billion people on the planet. The vast majority don't play 40k or even know what it is.

The company is MAKING MONEY.

True, but it's less and less money every year, which leads to...

I've never seen more doomsday malarkey over a PROFITABLE company in my life.

....Profits aren't what the issue is. Revenue. Sales. They're losing sales and if they continue to lose sales they will go under within five years at the current rate. After cutting all the fat they could and releasing major items, they still lost sales. The fact that they gloated about doing no market research shows that they won't understand what the problems are or how to fix them.

Applied some thread clean-up. Carry on. Politely.

That market research comment continues to blow my mind. How any company in this day and age in such a booming industry can simply ignore market trends and consumer feedback is incredible. If only they'd own their eyes to the great tools that companies have today to listen to the customer and provide a better product as well as a better financial statement for the company.

While I know little about MTG, clearly wizards of the coast works to address this with the game. I've never gotten into it but my buddies all just did again, praising it. Guess I should get on that train.

My 2 (what does the imperium use for currencies?)

FM Argos

The game currently has little or no power creep.

 PhillyT wrote:
The game currently has little or no power creep.

It's more like power undulations and scale creep.

When i was studying my degree on philosophy, we use to had a saying: from the things you have no knowledge or ignores, its better to remain silent
And looks like there is a lot of poeple here with dregrees on economics, marketing and managent of big companys...
I cant say if GW going to dissapear, if its doomed or if they are in red numbers, simple, i dont know because i know nothing about economics, inflation, variotions in the market, invesment and inner working of a company the size GW.
The only thing i can speak is about the balance that the game gain with the last armys reales, and i can speak about it because i have read all the the codex and play alot of games systems and have more than 5 years playing 40k.
And the only thing i can said about it is that i find it fine, the new codex´s are allright, the new models, i love them and i only hope they keep this new way of make the things


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

The only people who don't think so are those who are butt hurt over the direction of the game.

1 Thanks for the insult. (rule #1 anyone?) But if someone doesn't like a game, isn't that the biggest reason to stop playing? It's not a job, research project or charity, it's a game people play for fun. If they no longer find it fun, they stop playing.
Why are you upset about people criticizing your favorite game?

There's more people that like the game, than those that don't.

2 False. There are over six billion people on the planet. The vast majority don't play 40k or even know what it is.

The company is MAKING MONEY.

3 True, but it's less and less money every year, which leads to...

I've never seen more doomsday malarkey over a PROFITABLE company in my life.

4 ....Profits aren't what the issue is. Revenue. Sales. They're losing sales and if they continue to lose sales they will go under within five years at the current rate. After cutting all the fat they could and releasing major items, they still lost sales. The fact that they gloated about doing no market research shows that they won't understand what the problems are or how to fix them.

1. Ok. its allright if you dont like a game and i agree about its not a obligation to keep playing it, and yes, if they no longer find it fun, they stop playing and leave it for the peace; the problem comes when they beging to keep talking about it, they keep making baseless arguments about the bad things, even when they change their profile pic they keep talking about that game and even begin some kind of campaing trying to covert others to fallow other game systems (like infinity or warmachine or hordes) if a person already make his desicion to begin to play 40k, you dont have to appear and trying to covert it to your game system
2. He is talking about the comunity, so a little of common sense here please, and i am not trying to defend him here, this is something relative, around here the people who know something about wargaming they all like the new rules and have no complains about it (about 40k), and the ones that have complains, they have internet complains, including one, who quated, word by word, one post from here that was about the nerf to the flamers of tzeentch (you know, when they were broken as )
3/4. See my comente above

You like Murder McMurderson, Santa Sleigh and Taurox?? To each his own I guess...

And looks like there is a lot of poeple here with dregrees on economics, marketing and managent of big companys...

You would be surprised at the RL backgrounds of the people who post on these forums. As a matter of fact, when it comes to the financial analysis of GW, it *has* been done by people with degrees in economics, working in marketing and currently or previously in control of big companies.

 anyeri wrote:
When i was studying my degree on philosophy, we use to had a saying: from the things you have no knowledge or ignores, its better to remain silent
And looks like there is a lot of poeple here with dregrees on economics, marketing and managent of big companys...
I cant say if GW going to dissapear, if its doomed or if they are in red numbers, simple, i dont know because i know nothing about economics, inflation, variotions in the market, invesment and inner working of a company the size GW.
The only thing i can speak is about the balance that the game gain with the last armys reales, and i can speak about it because i have read all the the codex and play alot of games systems and have more than 5 years playing 40k.
And the only thing i can said about it is that i find it fine, the new codex´s are allright, the new models, i love them and i only hope they keep this new way of make the things


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

The only people who don't think so are those who are butt hurt over the direction of the game.

1 Thanks for the insult. (rule #1 anyone?) But if someone doesn't like a game, isn't that the biggest reason to stop playing? It's not a job, research project or charity, it's a game people play for fun. If they no longer find it fun, they stop playing.
Why are you upset about people criticizing your favorite game?

There's more people that like the game, than those that don't.

2 False. There are over six billion people on the planet. The vast majority don't play 40k or even know what it is.

The company is MAKING MONEY.

3 True, but it's less and less money every year, which leads to...

I've never seen more doomsday malarkey over a PROFITABLE company in my life.

4 ....Profits aren't what the issue is. Revenue. Sales. They're losing sales and if they continue to lose sales they will go under within five years at the current rate. After cutting all the fat they could and releasing major items, they still lost sales. The fact that they gloated about doing no market research shows that they won't understand what the problems are or how to fix them.

1. Ok. its allright if you dont like a game and i agree about its not a obligation to keep playing it, and yes, if they no longer find it fun, they stop playing and leave it for the peace; the problem comes when they beging to keep talking about it, they keep making baseless arguments about the bad things, even when they change their profile pic they keep talking about that game and even begin some kind of campaing trying to covert others to fallow other game systems (like infinity or warmachine or hordes) if a person already make his desicion to begin to play 40k, you dont have to appear and trying to covert it to your game system
2. He is talking about the comunity, so a little of common sense here please, and i am not trying to defend him here, this is something relative, around here the people who know something about wargaming they all like the new rules and have no complains about it (about 40k), and the ones that have complains, they have internet complains, including one, who quated, word by word, one post from here that was about the nerf to the flamers of tzeentch (you know, when they were broken as )
3/4. See my comente above

Actually, I think it's perfectly alright to try to get people to try other games.
2 was a joke, yes. But also one he can't support with any kind of facts or numbers, just his opinion.
3/4 A lot of people with a great deal of experience and knowledge about economics say that GW is not doing good at all. It's hard to argue against what they say. Can they be wrong? Absolutely. But I also think it wouldn't be right to pretend everything is A Okay at GW.

I tend to think that being run like Magic would be the second best thing that could happen to 40k. The first best would be the entire design studio being fired and the FFG designers taking over 40k. FFG has a track record of doing really solid, high quality products and supporting every aspect of their customer community.

MTG has power creep? Is that why a tournament vintage deck will roflstomp a standard tournament deck by turn 3 almost every game? Is that also why the large majority of banned cards in formats like modern are from the older sets? The most broken cards and combos in MTG are from 15 years ago. 40k does have power creep but how do you expect GW to sell a new kit if it isn't even as good as the ones already on the market for that army? I would say the 7th edition codex releases have done away with power creep in favor of a more internally and externally balanced game. Once they redo the tau and eldar books, the game will be more balanced than it ever has.

MtG has reverse power-creep. The old decks... what are now called "vintage" (and what I call "what I owned in high school") were, indeed, subject to power creep, and sometimes to a very great degree.

So much so that certain cards, because of how broken they were, were selling for rather a lot of money on the secondary market.

WotC looked at this and said, "oops", and so create a new system of ranking their cards, which is why their various tournaments now only permit cards within a certain, or certain range of, release series. This helps maintain the balance between cards and decks being played in that tournament, and makes it much less a pay-to-win game (as, in those "vintage" decks, paying $8000 for just the right card or cards on Ebay is, in many cases, a guaranteed win among players of similar skill level).

^ which is why I laugh when people talk about 40k being more expensive than MTG or more "pay to win". I spent as much on 4 tarmogoyfs as I did on a 1500 point army. The difference is after I bought the goyfs I needed $1000 of other cards to have a top tier deck.

... and the funny thing is, those cards won't be permitted in tournament play in, like, a year, and so will be practically worthless (outside of the specialist tournies).

For the casual player, though, MtG is a much, much cheaper game to get into and continue in, and WotC is *much* better now at balance than they were at first.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Two more years of 42% drops in profits and they will be into the red with no way out.
That might sound extreme but they have also shown they have no idea out of their current decline and have blatantly stated that they don't think asking us what we want is a good idea.
Its TSR all over againm they seem too big to fail and then they disappear overnight.

TSR didn't "disappear overnight". They got bought out by WoTC and then absorbed. There was a two year gap between WoTC appearing on the scene, and TSR ignoring them as irrelevant and WoTC becoming the BIG fish in that pond and eating them.

 chromedog wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Two more years of 42% drops in profits and they will be into the red with no way out.
That might sound extreme but they have also shown they have no idea out of their current decline and have blatantly stated that they don't think asking us what we want is a good idea.
Its TSR all over againm they seem too big to fail and then they disappear overnight.

TSR didn't "disappear overnight". They got bought out by WoTC and then absorbed. There was a two year gap between WoTC appearing on the scene, and TSR ignoring them as irrelevant and WoTC becoming the BIG fish in that pond and eating them.

Yes but my understanding was that right up till the end they where still profitable and still the big shots of the industry. There were showing all the same warning signs GW are now like not doing market research and accelerating their release scedual and people where saying what people here have been saying, that they are too big to fail.

 chromedog wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Two more years of 42% drops in profits and they will be into the red with no way out.
That might sound extreme but they have also shown they have no idea out of their current decline and have blatantly stated that they don't think asking us what we want is a good idea.
Its TSR all over againm they seem too big to fail and then they disappear overnight.

TSR didn't "disappear overnight". They got bought out by WoTC and then absorbed. There was a two year gap between WoTC appearing on the scene, and TSR ignoring them as irrelevant and WoTC becoming the BIG fish in that pond and eating them.

and honestly TSR dismissing WOTC as irrelevent was a valid decision. WOTC produced a CCG, totally differnt product. sure there was some market overlap but TSR's problems wheren't due to MTG

Forgemaster Argos wrote:
That market research comment continues to blow my mind. How any company in this day and age in such a booming industry can simply ignore market trends and consumer feedback is incredible. If only they'd own their eyes to the great tools that companies have today to listen to the customer and provide a better product as well as a better financial statement for the company.

While I know little about MTG, clearly wizards of the coast works to address this with the game. I've never gotten into it but my buddies all just did again, praising it. Guess I should get on that train.

My 2 (what does the imperium use for currencies?)

FM Argos

You should. There are preconstructed decks of all kinds available for around $10, just get then one with the art that appeals most to you and give it a spin. You'll find out whether you like magic or not very fast. At worst, you'll have wasted ten bucks.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I tend to think that being run like Magic would be the second best thing that could happen to 40k. The first best would be the entire design studio being fired and the FFG designers taking over 40k. FFG has a track record of doing really solid, high quality
products and supporting every aspect of their customer community.

Yeah, FFG would be awesome as well. I'm still amazed how awesome their Game of Thrones board game is - every game the story from the books basically retells itself (with variations) because the game was designed to make the same things possible that happened in the books/series.

Toofast wrote:MTG has power creep? Is that why a tournament vintage deck will roflstomp a standard tournament deck by turn 3 almost every game? Is that also why the large majority of banned cards in formats like modern are from the older sets? The most broken cards and combos in MTG are from 15 years ago.

Oh, there still is power creep, it's just not universal. Just compare three mana artifacts with mana abilities across editions - the started with CIPT and "add one colorless mana" and arrived at "all your lands produce mana of any color, add a mana of any color". Similar things are true for creatures. Fifteen years ago the Morphling was one of the most powerful creatures in the game. Nowadays is mediocre at best. Also not that broken cards a tournament-level combos are usually not designed to be that way, while power-creep is an intentional design decision.

Psienesis wrote:MtG has reverse power-creep. The old decks... what are now called "vintage" (and what I call "what I owned in high school") were, indeed, subject to power creep, and sometimes to a very great degree.

So much so that certain cards, because of how broken they were, were selling for rather a lot of money on the secondary market.

WotC looked at this and said, "oops", and so create a new system of ranking their cards, which is why their various tournaments now only permit cards within a certain, or certain range of, release series. This helps maintain the balance between cards and decks being played in that tournament, and makes it much less a pay-to-win game (as, in those "vintage" decks, paying $8000 for just the right card or cards on Ebay is, in many cases, a guaranteed win among players of similar skill level).

Actually, when they went "oops" about competitive play the first time, many of the tournament brackets were already in place. When combo-winter pretty much limited all competitive play to coin-flips who goes first, we already hat legacy, vintage, extended and standard (though called T1, T1.5, T2 and extended back then).

Toofast wrote:^ which is why I laugh when people talk about 40k being more expensive than MTG or more "pay to win". I spent as much on 4 tarmogoyfs as I did on a 1500 point army. The difference is after I bought the goyfs I needed $1000 of other cards to have a top tier deck.

The difference is that you don't need a single tarmogogyf to play a game, but you still need that 1500 point army. I have been playing magic continuously for 20 years now, and the only tarmogyf I have very had was sold to pay for two complete decks. Considering those prices I also assume that you're talking about competitive vintage - that's not the only way to play. You'll be hard pressed to actually spend $1500 on a standard deck, and even then, you could just buy display boxes.

I'm not sure it can be compared at all.

These days I mostly play drafts. It's very fair, very balanced and I play less for 3-4h of entertainment than when I go to see one of those 3D movies in cinema.

Constructed on tournament level is broken is very expensive and unfair in many ways. If you want a perfectly fair game you have to play something like chess. But that's pretty boring to me after some time and I like the constantly changing environment in Magic, new cards etc.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 anyeri wrote:
When i was studying my degree on philosophy, we use to had a saying: from the things you have no knowledge or ignores, its better to remain silent
And looks like there is a lot of poeple here with dregrees on economics, marketing and managent of big companys...
I cant say if GW going to dissapear, if its doomed or if they are in red numbers, simple, i dont know because i know nothing about economics, inflation, variotions in the market, invesment and inner working of a company the size GW.
The only thing i can speak is about the balance that the game gain with the last armys reales, and i can speak about it because i have read all the the codex and play alot of games systems and have more than 5 years playing 40k.
And the only thing i can said about it is that i find it fine, the new codex´s are allright, the new models, i love them and i only hope they keep this new way of make the things


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

The only people who don't think so are those who are butt hurt over the direction of the game.

1 Thanks for the insult. (rule #1 anyone?) But if someone doesn't like a game, isn't that the biggest reason to stop playing? It's not a job, research project or charity, it's a game people play for fun. If they no longer find it fun, they stop playing.
Why are you upset about people criticizing your favorite game?

There's more people that like the game, than those that don't.

2 False. There are over six billion people on the planet. The vast majority don't play 40k or even know what it is.

The company is MAKING MONEY.

3 True, but it's less and less money every year, which leads to...

I've never seen more doomsday malarkey over a PROFITABLE company in my life.

4 ....Profits aren't what the issue is. Revenue. Sales. They're losing sales and if they continue to lose sales they will go under within five years at the current rate. After cutting all the fat they could and releasing major items, they still lost sales. The fact that they gloated about doing no market research shows that they won't understand what the problems are or how to fix them.

1. Ok. its allright if you dont like a game and i agree about its not a obligation to keep playing it, and yes, if they no longer find it fun, they stop playing and leave it for the peace; the problem comes when they beging to keep talking about it, they keep making baseless arguments about the bad things, even when they change their profile pic they keep talking about that game and even begin some kind of campaing trying to covert others to fallow other game systems (like infinity or warmachine or hordes) if a person already make his desicion to begin to play 40k, you dont have to appear and trying to covert it to your game system
2. He is talking about the comunity, so a little of common sense here please, and i am not trying to defend him here, this is something relative, around here the people who know something about wargaming they all like the new rules and have no complains about it (about 40k), and the ones that have complains, they have internet complains, including one, who quated, word by word, one post from here that was about the nerf to the flamers of tzeentch (you know, when they were broken as )
3/4. See my comente above

1a. Actually, I think it's perfectly alright to try to get people to try other games.
2a was a joke, yes. But also one he can't support with any kind of facts or numbers, just his opinion.
3/4a A lot of people with a great deal of experience and knowledge about economics say that GW is not doing good at all. It's hard to argue against what they say. Can they be wrong? Absolutely. But I also think it wouldn't be right to pretend everything is A Okay at GW.

1a. Of course is perfectly alrighto to try to get people to other games, if they ask you first abouyt options or other games, if not, well then you become tfg, again, it better to remain silent in the things you dont know, plus, when nobody ask you about it
2a. Its his opinion, like the opinion oif everyone else here in the internet, popularity here is so relative


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

And looks like there is a lot of poeple here with dregrees on economics, marketing and managent of big companys...

You would be surprised at the RL backgrounds of the people who post on these forums. As a matter of fact, when it comes to the financial analysis of GW, it *has* been done by people with degrees in economics, working in marketing and currently or previously in control of big companies.

Ok, then there is a lot of people that have some knowledge on the subject, but my point is the same, I will not make any judgment, neither positive or negative about GW and their economic situation, for three simple reasons:
1 its a game
2 its a game
3 its a game (well it was just one)
People take it so seriusly, for a variety of reasons, because they have invested heavily, they have a lot of time invested or simple they have a lot of free time, ok, i agree that they the right to feel angry about the subject, but the maybe a rant here or there is alright, but people have take it to another level, when i read the discuicion about how GW is going under, people imbues his word with so much hate, thats even looks like they enjoy the fact that the company is going down and tons of people will lose their jobs, insurence, their retirement etc....
That why i put myself in a neutral stance here, its not like i am pretending everything is alright and live in a honey world, but simple, i dont wish any bad thing to the people who make the company and make possible that i can have some space marines to collect and paint, thats my point true point here




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:
You like Murder McMurderson, Santa Sleigh and Taurox?? To each his own I guess...

I love to read Baudelair and liston to Dvorak, when everyone else find it boring, other find entertaining to wacht football and listen metal, something i find boring...
I love those models, in fact the three of them, there is anything wrong in that?

 anyeri wrote:
Ok, then there is a lot of people that have some knowledge on the subject, but my point is the same, I will not make any judgment, neither positive or negative about GW and their economic situation, for three simple reasons:
1 its a game
2 its a game
3 its a game (well it was just one)
People take it so seriusly, for a variety of reasons, because they have invested heavily, they have a lot of time invested or simple they have a lot of free time, ok, i agree that they the right to feel angry about the subject, but the maybe a rant here or there is alright, but people have take it to another level, when i read the discuicion about how GW is going under, people imbues his word with so much hate, thats even looks like they enjoy the fact that the company is going down and tons of people will lose their jobs, insurence, their retirement etc....
That why i put myself in a neutral stance here, its not like i am pretending everything is alright and live in a honey world, but simple, i dont wish any bad thing to the people who make the company and make possible that i can have some space marines to collect and paint, thats my point true point here

I honestly think you are taking it entirely the wring way if you are reading hate in any discussions about GW going under. Disappointment sure. Frustration absolutely. But not hate.
At least here on Dakka most of the people talking about how they think GW are going under (myself included) are not wishing GW would go under at all. They are seeing a company they used to love treating them like and they are annoyed, but most would want nothing more than to see GW become something great again.

Actually I'll give you that some people seem to want GW to fail, but you'll find those words always followed by things like "because that seems to be the only way we'll see any real, posative change".

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
So how do you turn the game back in a direction with more appeal, without alienating all the players who bought in on the latest rounds of product waves (LoWs, flyers, etc).

It's a mess, that much is for sure.

Flyers and LoW is not the problem. They would be fine especially Low if things were balanced priced properly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
As a tournament mtg player, I feel the need to interject in its defense. Some of the most powerful cards are also some of the oldest, and they have repeatedly made awesome things like removal and counter spells "just a bit worse" in an ongoing attempt to see how bad they can make them before players won't use them.

At least you can use some of the oldest cards. What can you use that is old from GW? Nothing. Everything is redone every 18 months now and invalidated. Hell you can't even use old minis with square bases without someone crying, "It's not a circle and proper size!"

 koooaei wrote:
7-th edition is way better than 6-th. And new codexes are way better ballanced than all of the the 6-th ones and ba/gk/sw of the 5-th. So if all's going the route of the early 7-th, than it's gona be great. Though, lots of people quit with 7-th due to "you can play whatever you want" and "you can summon daemons". Cause...well, i don't know. People like to panic and hate.

Agreed. So very much agreed.

As much as everyone likes to talk, Warhammer isn't going anywhere, even is GW is. And the big issue that might be causing the drop in revenue is the fact that almost all of their kits now are getting more and more expensive, which a lot of people just can't afford. Granted, yes the kits are awesome and the model detail is pretty amazing, but still.