Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Always sad to hear about a gaming store going out of business.

 Darkness wrote:


Since GW stopped the bits business, Spikey Bits and by an extension, FTW Games has been losing money.

Hasn't GW not been selling bits for 5+ years (at least) or is that referring to some other GW-shop interaction tomfoolery/shenanigans?

 Pacific wrote:
Always sad to hear about a gaming store going out of business.

 Darkness wrote:


Since GW stopped the bits business, Spikey Bits and by an extension, FTW Games has been losing money.

Hasn't GW not been selling bits for 5+ years (at least) or is that referring to some other GW-shop interaction tomfoolery/shenanigans?

Basically FLGS owners were buying boxes at their discount rate and breaking open boxes which were meant for retail for bitz. GW made that not allowed by trade partners. They also said if we find you are selling discount to a bitz dealer, your account will be shut off. Making the only LEGAL bitz dealings was to buy a product at full MSRP from GW and bitting it up. Making the whole mess unprofitable.

So that is what people call 'stopping the bitz business' was when those changes to the TOS happened.

At the time, Spikey Bits was effectively the largest US bits seller. One could surmise that the actions taken by GW were directly aimed at Spikey Bits.

Which of course never made sense. GW never really sold bits, Spikey Bits bought GW product to turn into bits, GW sales were up which is good for investors.

 juraigamer wrote:
At the time, Spikey Bits was effectively the largest US bits seller. One could surmise that the actions taken by GW were directly aimed at Spikey Bits.

Which of course never made sense. GW never really sold bits, Spikey Bits bought GW product to turn into bits, GW sales were up which is good for investors.

That's because in GW's blind rush to make as much money as possible, they often screw themselves over and end up losing money and business.

The lease terms - while onerous, are not uncommon for newer construction strip malls. They do that so that they can ensure the foot traffic stays up and they are not leasing out to companies that will devalue the property to the left and right of them. They also get into types of displays, signage, windows, hours of operation and a whole host of other issues that - seem ridiculous until you look at why those clauses are written into the lease.

I myself wouldn't consider signing it for a game store (too volatile of an operation) but depending on the local market - it might have been the only facility that fit their needs as a business.

Regarding "taking money" till the last minute... Quite common to be honest. More often than not - the difference between bankruptcy and insolvency for a small business is the difference between a good day of sales on Monday and a bad day of sales on Friday. If the sales had come in strong over the weekend - it might have allowed them to have the capital to keep the business open. If they didn't...that would mean bankruptcy. You roll the dice, and hope you win.

That may or may not apply to Spikey Bits/FTW (never bought from them - have no knowledge of the owners) - but simply trying to keep the business running by maintaining the website doesn't immediately mean they were looking to fleece anyone.

nkelsch wrote:

I think people who are valid customers and have direct interactions with the person in question are valid observations... Maybe all of the discussions of the multiple frauds Dakka exposes is trash talking too? maybe anyone who does a user transaction report in the swap shop is trash talking?

I quoted 3 people. One person simply called him an expletive. One person heard "scuttlebutt" that he ran off with the till the night of the lockdown. I don't have problems with someone mentioning a bad experience with a business or individual in the appropriate thread, but this isn't really the place for that.

Your 'Woe be to poor business owner, his family and livelihood' what about the poor customers whoa re out real money due to no fault of their on except trusting a company to not screw or cheat them? It is best for everything to be brought to the surface so those who can get their money back can and in the future those people can see a history and make decisions if to trust that person again. Dakka has a great history of documenting such actions for posterity and never forgetting, so I would like to see that continue opposed to have things shouted down and covered up by people like yourself.

Shouted down and covered up? You are aware there are other reasons beyond a store owner's control that would make it impossible for him to offer refunds? There are even reasons why he might be planning events and taking pre-orders. The IRS can show up and put a lock on your door in the middle of a business day. A leasing company can do what they wish with their property within the confines of your contract. Neither of these events come with a conveniently scheduled date and time. Neither of these have to do with cheating or defrauding the customer.

All I asked was for some civility.

Personally I've had nothing but good experiences with FTW and Rob. He seemed like a great guy like the rest of his staff. It sucks that I got screwed with my pre order (and the exclusive mini that came with it) but the store closing and great people losing their jobs sucks way worse. Thanks for making the last four years rock FTW.

 the_Armyman wrote:


Shouted down and covered up? You are aware there are other reasons beyond a store owner's control that would make it impossible for him to offer refunds? There are even reasons why he might be planning events and taking pre-orders. The IRS can show up and put a lock on your door in the middle of a business day. A leasing company can do what they wish with their property within the confines of your contract. Neither of these events come with a conveniently scheduled date and time. Neither of these have to do with cheating or defrauding the customer.

All I asked was for some civility.

Well it is never 'impossible'. If he is incorporated, his personal finances would be untouched and if he so chose he could go into personal debt to make things right with customers. So I would hardly call it impossible, simply 'I am not required to by law'. I have seen many small businesses fail online despite best intentions but leaving customers without money is universally going to be bad. You can call it whatever you want, but giving a business money and having that money lost and never getting the money or product is going to be seen by a vast majority of people as being cheated regardless of circumstances.

I hope there is transparency moving forward so if there was any ill dealings which lead up to this they are exposed and give people recourse to reclaim their money. Transparency is good for all involved even if it exposes ugly things.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Personally I've had nothing but good experiences with FTW and Rob. He seemed like a great guy like the rest of his staff. It sucks that I got screwed with my pre order (and the exclusive mini that came with it) but the store closing and great people losing their jobs sucks way worse. Thanks for making the last four years rock FTW.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I don't believe there was any shady wrong doing by Rob at all. It was hands down the best FLGS I've ever seen.

It's a shame to see FTW/Spikey close. If it wasn't for Rob and his original foray into bits with Battle Wagon Bits, I would not be the modeler I am. And if it wasn't for Rob's friendship and Spikey Bits, I would not have the modeling commission business I have now that is my sole source of income and allows me to live pretty decent.

Because of this, it greatly saddens me to see Rob and his employees out a job. I feel for his customers too, as I was one, and having to shop elsewhere will now cut into my profits.

nkelsch wrote:
You can call it whatever you want, but giving a business money and having that money lost and never getting the money or product is going to be seen by a vast majority of people as being cheated regardless of circumstances.

If you paid with a credit card - call your company and have them do the charge back. Tell them the business went into bankruptcy (they handle those a bit differently).

Same goes for PayPal (again - they have ways to handle that...).

If you paid with debit card...it depends. Technically you have the right to do a charge back for an EFT (all debit card activities) under CFR 12 Regulation E. However, many banks are a PITA to deal with or have odd hoops to jump through. If you have enough money out there to justify it - you certainly can...but you may have a liability on your part of $50 depending on your bank and how they decide to proceed.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The lease terms - while onerous, are not uncommon for newer construction strip malls. They do that so that they can ensure the foot traffic stays up and they are not leasing out to companies that will devalue the property to the left and right of them. They also get into types of displays, signage, windows, hours of operation and a whole host of other issues that - seem ridiculous until you look at why those clauses are written into the lease.

I myself wouldn't consider signing it for a game store (too volatile of an operation) but depending on the local market - it might have been the only facility that fit their needs as a business.

Regarding "taking money" till the last minute... Quite common to be honest. More often than not - the difference between bankruptcy and insolvency for a small business is the difference between a good day of sales on Monday and a bad day of sales on Friday. If the sales had come in strong over the weekend - it might have allowed them to have the capital to keep the business open. If they didn't...that would mean bankruptcy. You roll the dice, and hope you win.

That may or may not apply to Spikey Bits/FTW (never bought from them - have no knowledge of the owners) - but simply trying to keep the business running by maintaining the website doesn't immediately mean they were looking to fleece anyone.

Or even older malls that have been purchased by a certain corporation that owns a very large number of malls... (I believe that they are #1 in the business)

Or, that they used to own at least... They took over ownership of the Maine Mall, kicked out a lot of the older (mostly local) stores, then waited with 'bated breath for the chic big name stores to move into the now vacant spaces.

And waited.

And waited.

And waited.

And sold out as the mall approached bankruptcy.... It seems that the traffic just wasn't sufficient for the stores that the company wanted to take over the spaces.

The Maine Mall still hasn't recovered. (The economy isn't exactly helping....)

The Auld Grump - one of the stores forced to move out was a game store... surprised?

I think the issue is that there are several people who sold large collections of items/MTG cards to the store and were given credit as payment (for the record if I got any store credit from them, I tried to use it immediately). This was happening as of Sunday before it closed. If the store was hurting for income, doesn't it make sense to reduce costs by not buying more merchandise? That is what struck many people as odd/inappropriate. Another concern was the fact that all the information given was 1. A so long post by Rob and 2. A post of the FB page not made by Rob. I would think it would be better to get a response from Rob instead of his sticking his head in the sand. If he went bankrupt, a good way to keep good rapport with people would be to let them know what was happening (and if there is to be an auction, to ensure more people would show up).

This is a very sad situation. I feel for everyone who has lost money on account of this.

From the sound of things, it seems that GWs policies were directly involved in the failure of the business. Another win for GW. Selling bits was not harming GWs business. If a person went to a bits seller to purchase whole models they would end up paying more than retail. Thus, their customers most likely already purchased GW product and were getting extra bits to customize their models. (At GWs current prices I would not think that customers would buy a whole extra kit just for parts.) Fortunately, I am no longer a GW customer, so I am somewhat insulated from their nonsense. However, it is sad to see their policies destroy other business and gaming communities.

To be fair to GW if a bitz seller broke up a kit and sold for example 20 separate items if only 2 of those buyers HAD to have the bit and would have bought a kit to get it they would have lost an extra sale (and more if more of the bitz buyers were in a similar position)

I think it's not unreasonable given the number of bitz a single kit can provide that in at least some of the cases this would have happened

(not to say that the bitz sellers did not provide a much valued service that many of us including me have used, but possibly not as harmless a one as you might first think)

Rob is a stand up guy, he's in a rough spo here

The majority of people ITT and the other thread that are harping on him never actually had IRL dealings with him

 vitki wrote:

 keas66 wrote:
Just curious as I have no idea about leases on shops but why would the terms of a lease include stuff like that ? - I mean a landlord wants his/her rent ....what does he/she care about sales figures/number of employees/stock levels ?

It depends on where the shop is. I know a lot of malls require a certain minimum number of employees be in the store during business hours. Not sure of the other stuff though.

If he signed that lease, he's a moron. FTW is in the same shopping center as a used book store that has like 2 old lady employees and probably does 1/8th of FTW's sales per month.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stevefamine wrote:
Rob is a stand up guy, he's in a rough spo here

The majority of people ITT and the other thread that are harping on him never actually had IRL dealings with him

You're kidding, right? FTW is not the first game store he's opened, and it won't be the last, nor is it the first time he's screwed people out of collection of miniatures/store credit/magic cards, and I can guarantee you it won't be the last. Maybe 6 years ago it was a sad story and it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't feel bad for all the poor gamers he owed money too, cry cry cry. But now it's a pattern. Ask anyone from the Tidewater area about his dealings with Atlantis Comics & Games and his destruction of Legends in Hampton, VA, and why he's reviled in that area.

Let's also talk about his track record with the local community. FTW was suspended from selling GW product at least _twice_ for violating their trade terms, and one time, One Eyed Jacques allowed FTW to place several GW stock orders through their account, and the second time, Dragon's Den did the same thing. Rob then rewarded both of them by reporting them to his GW sales rep that they had GW product in their ebay stores, promptly getting them placed on notice and suspended for a few weeks.

I've been gaming in RVA since '94 or so and Rob Baer is synonymous with super shadiness - almost as bad as Rusty, but at least Rusty when to jail. There will always be apologists no matter the years - decades - worth of evidence against this guy.

 judgedoug wrote:

 vitki wrote:

 keas66 wrote:
Just curious as I have no idea about leases on shops but why would the terms of a lease include stuff like that ? - I mean a landlord wants his/her rent ....what does he/she care about sales figures/number of employees/stock levels ?

It depends on where the shop is. I know a lot of malls require a certain minimum number of employees be in the store during business hours. Not sure of the other stuff though.

If he signed that lease, he's a moron. FTW is in the same shopping center as a used book store that has like 2 old lady employees and probably does 1/8th of FTW's sales per month.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stevefamine wrote:
Rob is a stand up guy, he's in a rough spo here

The majority of people ITT and the other thread that are harping on him never actually had IRL dealings with him

You're kidding, right? FTW is not the first game store he's opened, and it won't be the last, nor is it the first time he's screwed people out of collection of miniatures/store credit/magic cards, and I can guarantee you it won't be the last. Maybe 6 years ago it was a sad story and it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't feel bad for all the poor gamers he owed money too, cry cry cry. But now it's a pattern. Ask anyone from the Tidewater area about his dealings with Atlantis Comics & Games and his destruction of Legends in Hampton, VA, and why he's reviled in that area.

Let's also talk about his track record with the local community. FTW was suspended from selling GW product at least _twice_ for violating their trade terms, and one time, One Eyed Jacques allowed FTW to place several GW stock orders through their account, and the second time, Dragon's Den did the same thing. Rob then rewarded both of them by reporting them to his GW sales rep that they had GW product in their ebay stores, promptly getting them placed on notice and suspended for a few weeks.

I've been gaming in RVA since '94 or so and Rob Baer is synonymous with super shadiness - almost as bad as Rusty, but at least Rusty when to jail. There will always be apologists no matter the years - decades - worth of evidence against this guy.

Who are you again? Have you ever even spoken to him in person?

1994? Yes tell me more about how a 50 year old man is tarnishing a rep of someone who he's never met.

This is a bummer, never went to play at the store but I contantly got stuff from its big stock and used/bits piles when they still existed.

That whole strip mall seems like its not doing so well.

in the meantime is there any plans to meetup the same people in another place?

Jaques doesnt do wargamming anymore (though maybe after their exspansion)

and DD cant handle two stores worth of gamers

I wanted one of their gaming mats...well shucks.

 Stevefamine wrote:
1994? Yes tell me more about how a 50 year old man is tarnishing a rep of someone who he's never met.

Whew, I don't think anyone in the world can tarnish Rob Baer's reputation as much as he's tarnished it himself over the past decade.

As far as nkelsch and the_Armyman's goings backs and forths.... Breotan's comment was the only valid one. It is shady as hell to take preorders till the last minute when you know you're going down. Closing the doors isn't a surprise, taking those preorders is the exact type of gak that keeps Dakkadakka cynical. The other two comments were spiteful and unproductive.

Here is the best post of the page and should be remembered for all online transactions.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

If you paid with a credit card - call your company and have them do the charge back. Tell them the business went into bankruptcy (they handle those a bit differently).

Same goes for PayPal (again - they have ways to handle that...).

If you paid with debit card...it depends. Technically you have the right to do a charge back for an EFT (all debit card activities) under CFR 12 Regulation E. However, many banks are a PITA to deal with or have odd hoops to jump through. If you have enough money out there to justify it - you certainly can...but you may have a liability on your part of $50 depending on your bank and how they decide to proceed.

Then way we do business today, we have protection. You just have to remember it's there. For the people who walked in to the brick and mortar and paid cash I do feel for ya, but you can get yourself on the bankruptcy creditor list.

Past all of this I'd like to say that my condolences go out to FTW/Spikeybits. I mean I wouldn't have gotten as much enjoyment out of 40k as I did through the last 10 years if it weren't for Battlewagon Bits, then Spikeybits. You guys kept the game fun for a lot of people and I hope you'll be recover.

 juraigamer wrote:
At the time, Spikey Bits was effectively the largest US bits seller. One could surmise that the actions taken by GW were directly aimed at Spikey Bits.

Which of course never made sense. GW never really sold bits, Spikey Bits bought GW product to turn into bits, GW sales were up which is good for investors.

Ya actually that's not true as several other companies were selling a ton more bits. Heck when I had my bits business I was doing in excess of 30k a month and could barely keep with demand and hoard'o'bits did ten times as much as me.

It sucks that he had to go into bankruptcy, but hopefully he bounces back.

Companies? Ebay accounts aren't necessarily the same.

If FTW had a judgment against it (for non-payment of rent, breach of lease terms, etc.), the Sheriff could just show up and lock them out of the story. End of story. There is no need to jump into conspiracy theories. Sucks for those who had store credit, but it is entirely possible to be unwillingly forced into bankruptcy by a creditor, which is what it sounds like may have happened (or he may have declared bankruptcy after the creditor started seizing assets, which is also common).

I think the issue also is that Rob has not spoken out about it at all. The customers at least deserve the right to know what happened for posterity if nothing else. Cutting and running with no comment comes off poorly.

IngusMaximus wrote:
I think the issue also is that Rob has not spoken out about it at all. The customers at least deserve the right to know what happened for posterity if nothing else. Cutting and running with no comment comes off poorly.

In the gaming community yes, but any good lawyer will tell you to "keep your mouth shut until everything is said and done." If there's any hope of him straightening things out, or if lawyers are involved then being silent is the best thing. He doesn't need to air his dirty laundry and possibly get into deeper trouble by blaming others or opening himself up to personal litigation if FTW was established as a true LLC.

 Theophony wrote:

IngusMaximus wrote:
I think the issue also is that Rob has not spoken out about it at all. The customers at least deserve the right to know what happened for posterity if nothing else. Cutting and running with no comment comes off poorly.

In the gaming community yes, but any good lawyer will tell you to "keep your mouth shut until everything is said and done." If there's any hope of him straightening things out, or if lawyers are involved then being silent is the best thing. He doesn't need to air his dirty laundry and possibly get into deeper trouble by blaming others or opening himself up to personal litigation if FTW was established as a true LLC.

I don't see how making any kind of public statement will do him any good. Some people are going to be pissed no matter what he says, or where blame gets pointed. Others (myself included) will choose not to support anything else he ever does in the gaming community. Yet others will come to his side to defend him. No point in giving any of those people ammunition.

Like was said, if you put the purchase on a card, get the charge reversed.

If you paid cash, that sucks and sorry to hear it.

Won't be missed my me. I ordered online a few times from them and found their service to be indifferent at best. I moved on to other providers.

Also, this will hopefully be the end of the terribly named 'Forge The Narrative' podcast, and maybe someone that actually cares about the game and lore can start using it instead. It was a joke to call a podcast that was mostly devoted to breaking and bending rules and WAAC tournament gaming that.