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Thanks for all your help so far guys. I really appreciate you answering my question.

Since my FOW stuff will be entirely out of what I get for christmas and what I can pick up from trades or selling old stuff I think ten may be a little too much for me for the time being always something I could expand towards later though. For Christmas I shall be getting the psc late british infantry and one PSC tank box which consists of 5 tanks and will probably try to expand from there. Along with the firefly and sherman I already have.

 Ghaz wrote:
Also note that after taking a quick look in my books, it looks like Churchills can only support ground pounders while lorried or motorized infantry are supported by Shermans or Cromwells. Of course you could always do a Tank Company (Churchills) instead of an Armoured Company (Shermans/Fireflies) or Armoured Recce Company (Cromwells) and have three or four platoons of Churchills along with a couple of rifle platoons.

I wouyldnt recommend that. You dont need many Chuchills, they are a garnish to an infantry list. A PSC Churchill box plus one extra sprue yields six Churchills, which is two platoons.

Remember we are helping this guy build a collection, not a list.
For a single list I would recommend Shermans with as many Firefly as can be fit in supporting or supported by infantry. However after getting the toys to have all that the next point of inclusion can be varied, there is room to buy Cromwells. I would suggest 3x PSC boxsets as that yields fifteen Cromwells, enough to do the list justice, especailly as you have no easy way of buying Chellengers. However Cromwell also require you invest in motor rifles, and Flames of War punishes British by insisting the halftracks are only half full, or lorried infantry, which have cheap transport but are vulnerable. All in all its a lot of extra stuff to buy to make your mechanised list with Cromwells, wheras six Churchills adds to the infantry already present and job done another list.

Put it this way.

1. Open Fire Shermans plus the two already bought.
2. PSC Infantry and heavy weapons
3. PSC Churchills plus one extra sprue
yields:

A. Fieldable infantry company with mortar and machine gun platoons
supported by 2x Sherman/Firefly platoons

B. or 2x Churchill platoons

C. Armoured Squadron
Sherman platoons with infantry support.

A is the default company infantry heavy with excellent fire support from the Shermans, needed as this list has no AT other than PIATS.
B is an acceptable alternative list, Churchills are solid in defence and plays to the British strengths.
C is the attacker force. The infantry support is lorried, but actually fielding the lorries is optional as an upgrade (Overlord book) so you don't have to wait until you can find a heap of 15mm lorries in order to play this.

Cromwells are a nice fourth option, generally with infantry lists support by Cromwells is pointless, a Cromwell company will be nice, but it would again need the lorries. I never recommend Churchill companies, Churchills lack attacking power.

There is a lot to go with and a lot that can be bought, its not so much buy Cromwells or Chuchills, to get the most out of the game you might as well buy both, that sounds expensive, however for chuchills you get the change with a single boxset (and sprue) that turns the existing force into a completely different one. Cromwells not fit into an alternatve build with existing models, the odd support unit excepting, it requires a larger investment and is essentially a second collection. What matters is the purchase order, and what can be afforded. The OP appears to be on a strict budget, mainly working from pre-chosen presents and pocket money. It costs a lot (relatively speaking) to do an Armoured Recon Squadron properly, if you buy Cromwells (and why not, they are great tanks) you need to go all the way and buy lots of them and you need to get the supporting units right too. A few Churchills however will dovetail seamlessly with the two infantry boxsets already on the purchase list.

Buying Cromwell company is worth it in the end, they are beautiful tanks, and fast tank companes are always fun to play. But in all honesty I have to save that as a recommendation for later and would stick with the Shermans, Chuchills and infantry for a while.

I don't have pocket money bit too old for that but I don't really have spare hobby cash ATM so you are right it will be on a budget.

I don't need a full playable force right away though it's something I can slowly add too.

I would rather variety where avalable rather than loads of identical models or tanks. Not sure how much of an option that is though.

I want some tanks in the list but it doesn't need to be a mechanised one, I am pretty flexible in unit reguard.

Just wanted to tell you all I really appreciate the help so far.

 carlos13th wrote:
I would rather variety where avalable rather than loads of identical models or tanks. Not sure how much of an option that is though.

There will almost always be at least one or more models that will be more prevalent in your collection due to the way the rules dictate you build your company. An armoured company will have a preponderance of tanks (usually of the same type), an infantry company will have lots of infantry, etc. It's just the nature of the game. Your best bet is to decide which you prefer (tanks, infantry, armoured cars, etc.) and choose a force based on that.

 Ghaz wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I would rather variety where avalable rather than loads of identical models or tanks. Not sure how much of an option that is though.

There will almost always be at least one or more models that will be more prevalent in your collection due to the way the rules dictate you build your company. An armoured company will have a preponderance of tanks (usually of the same type), an infantry company will have lots of infantry, etc. It's just the nature of the game. Your best bet is to decide which you prefer (tanks, infantry, armoured cars, etc.) and choose a force based on that.

This is true however if you get two staples: Shermans and infantry, you can ad to that with a multitude of different things.
I didnt know before today that PSc has now bought out 6pdrs, with transport, I think thats a good option.

Really it comes down to the fast that two boxsets of infantry, the basic infantry and th heavy weapons will fill out an infantry company list and can be used to stock motor infantry and support for armoured units at leisure.

Then you need a reasonably large squadron of similar tanks, and the easiest way into that are to get Sherman V and Firefly, you get two hulls types for variety and they are average non nonsense tanks you can learn to play on. Cromwells are great but can get you into trouble fast and Churchills are slow. The best way into getting Shermans is via Open Fire, especially if you double up with a swap with someone who wants Germans. Though ten Shermans is good enough for a reasonable start

You can then have variety a number of ways. The new 6pdrs are a good option, firepower is very average but the ROF is excellent they can lay down the hurt but will have problems with front armour of heavier German assets. Again if you8 want variety as boxset of Churchills will provide that and remember that your heavy weapons boxset gives you two mortar platoons, one of which is really for smoke deployment and the other havier tubes do the killing, and a machine gun platoon which again is different and provides some lethal static anti infantry firepower.
Zvezda do Dingo armoured cars and the PSC site sells them in sets of three which is enough for a recon patrol (though ideally you should be mixing with Daimlers. A number of manufacturers make Universal Carriers which are awesome for variety as you can add AA machine guns to them, or PIAT rocket launchers or flamethrowers, the latter being exceptionally useful. All those things can be added over time.

If you realy wants Cromwells now I suggest you avoid buying anty Shermans for now so you have the cash to buy enough, and you will ned to source Chellenger turrets from somewhere or you will end up with a total lack of viariety in your tanks. Frankly if variety means that much to you, (and I understand if it does, I much prefer to game with a mixed force almost regardless of which miniatures game it is) then I would leave the Cromwells well alone for now and budget instead for support units.

Forged in Battle do nice UC's, and other things:
http://www.forgedinbattle.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_41_36&products_id=231

Noticed that you can also buy 15mm Matadors
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_37_39_55&products_id=437

So thats lorried infantry sorted at a fair price, and you just add two lorries per platoon to do this. Note: Normally Matadors were not used for infantry transport, they were heavy duty and therefore normally allocated to artillery, but the rules specify lorries, not which lorries and its not unreasonable for Matadors to be used for infantry transport rather than Fodens or GMC. After all tyhery came from a motor pool, not platoon allocation.

I dont think you will have any trouble getting variety on a budget, the core is just to have enough for a legal infantry list and a legal tank list, so you attack or defend. Then add whatever you can and flesh out your collection. With smart puirchase you can have a lot of variety, multiple lists, and pay under £100 all told.

Managed to source a pack of five psc Sherman m4a2's for a tenner which seems like a great deal. After looking at comparisons I don't mind mixing the bf and psc shermans.

Just hope the m4a2's are acceptable for British use, ideally I would have went for the firefly pack but I saw the bargain price and jumped on it.

Sounds like giving the cromwells a miss is a good idea for now despite the fact I like the look of them. Like the look of the shermans too though so they will be an acceptable alternative.

So that's

Psc late british infantry
5 psc shermans
1 bf sherman
1 bf firefly

And younger sister wants to get me one more box from psc for Christmas, so from your suggestion the 6pdr artillery box with the loyd carrier is a good way to go.

I might get open fire sometime in the new year then once I have some more disposable cash. It also gives me a route into Germans in the future if I want an opposing force.

The M4A2 Sherman (known as the Sherman III to the British) were generally used in North Africa and Italy. Only rivet counters will complain if you try to use them as M4A4 Sherman (Sherman V) which is the variant used almost exclusively in Northern Europe. The only problem is if you want any Fireflies as they're only on the M4A4 kit and they're distinctive enough that you can't really substitute another model of Sherman without some conversion work.

Way I figure it if I pick up a firefly kit further down the line I can use that as a the fireflys and the m4a2 as m4a4s.

What are the differences between the a2 and a4's model wise btw?

The Firefly is a modified M4A4, so they're both on the same kit (PSC and Battlefront).

Rules wise, the Sherman III and Sherman V are identical. Primarily they're visual differences, hence only the rivet counters will care.

M4A2 SHERMAN



M4A4 SHERMAN / FIREFLY VC

I can see that the front of the chassis is different between the two now that you mention it. Never noticed before.

 carlos13th wrote:
I can see that the front of the chassis is different between the two now that you mention it. Never noticed before.

I believe what you're seeing is actually improvised armour created from spare tank tread sections, used to cover a weak spot on the front hull.

It's also hard to see especially at 15mm, but the Sherman V is also longer with more widely spaced bogies (the wheels in the tracks).

You may very well be right. I can't spot the difference in sizes in the photos but that's probably a combination of the small scale and not knowing what I am looking for.

I think customising tanks with stowage, soft/improvised armour etc could be a lot of fun and may help bring uniqueness and variety to painting the same tank too many times.

'Rivet counter' not heard that phrase before, it says a lot.

In general trying to get your tanks right is a duty you should at least pay nodding attention to, but never let it stand in the way of a deal or convenience unless you are using your collection strictly as a historical tool.

M4A2's will be fine anyway, especially if you field a generic force. Maybe some Sherman III's send over for testing or trainig purposes alongside the first purchases stayed in England until their allocation for field use for D-Day. It would make sense, besides I did some research fro my US Shermans and found that there was a lot of chopping an changing, so old hulls turrets even turret bustles were recycled and used on other tanks. There was quite a bit of scavenging going on and tanks would become less and less standardised over time.

Sherman III's will be fine, the only noticable difference is with the engine louvres, and while some may brandish their knowledge by pointing out they are Sherman III's not V's but only a dick would make an issue over it.

That being said the crews modification for later Shermans of mounting extra track over the front hull should be mimiced. By D-Day tankers were wise to this weak spot and normally put something there, normally track, but some tanks mounted wheels or metal plates etc.

Nice that you got yourself a deal. If you really want Sherman V's cut and reset the road wheel bogeys and cover the rear deck with camo scrim, nobody will notice then.

I beleive pre WW1 and 2 gamers who do the same thing are referred to as button counters.

The chopping and changing sounds interesting, got any links to that? Would be fun to read and see some of the modifications they did and maybe make some myself.

Thanks for the tip about the weakspot at the front.

Do you really need to fake Sherman V's?

I'm not going to cut the bogeys but in general mimicking some of the modifications to make unique looking tanks could be fun.

According to this website the M4A2 was 5.92 meters long while the M4A4 was 6.05 meters long. The centers of M4A4's bogies were 63.625" (162cm) apart, while those of other Shermans were 57" (145cm) apart. The most visible difference at this scale IMHO would be the armoured box on the back of the turret of the Sherman V.

Remember that this is a historical game based on real life vehicles. You don't want them to look unique, you want them to look authentic but at the end of the day they're your models and you can do with them what you wish.

I meant unique as in having a different commander sticking out of the to and most importantly Having different stowage on them . The base models will be identical if they are the same tank but the little touches by the crew is how I want to make them unique and interesting. Depending on huge modifications however if I can get a decent photographic reference one or two of them could be interesting to do depending on how common they were and how they look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Think I might go for these guys

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/53rd-Welsh-Division.pdf

 carlos13th wrote:
I meant unique as in having a different commander sticking out of the to and most importantly Having different stowage on them .

Then it takes us back where we started. PSC Shermans dont have a lot of stowage options on them, the ones that do are from the Open Fire box. PSC Shermans sprues have the same two generic commander figures one British, one American and both are limited in detail. Open Fire has three different commender figures for the Shermans, two unique and highly detailed on the infantry sprue, plus one generic commander repeated on every tank sprue, and plenty of stowage bags an strips of ttack of different length, the sprue also contains turret stowage.

PSC Shermans have some extra pieces and a rear rack piece the Battlefront Shermans doesn't supply but in general the PSC kits just provide the tank, little else. From experience I prefer the crisp lines of the PSC miniatures rather than the hand sculpted feel of the Battlefront ones but for stowage options Battlefront Open Fire wins hands down, far more stowage and more crew variation. The boxset have some really nice tank commender figures, the very characterful mutton chop mustached British tank commander is a must have for your CO. Good news is that as Open Fire sprue stowage is repeated on every sprue for all eight tanks, you will have more than enough to add individuality to all your Shermans, including the others you get elsewhere.

Honestly Open Fire and the two PSC infantry boxes, and the new PSC 6pdrs is all you need right now. But it's your call.

IIRC, PSC is supposedly working on a 15mm British Stowage Set similar to their recently released 1/72 German Stowage Set. No word on a release date unless we can Big P to spill the beans.

If I am reading it right the 53rd welsh list allows me to take fireflys and cromwells together.

 carlos13th wrote:
If I am reading it right the 53rd welsh list allows me to take fireflys and cromwells together.

Yes, there was a thread on this recently.

Awesome that lets me stick with the Cromwells I like the look of and get the Shermans too.