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2014/12/13 18:08:29
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Voted CSM, though I think you'll struggle with IG and Sisters the most.
I think I can make a usable, though not terribly good, list from the Daemons section though (mainly due to Karanak though) based around Tzeentch and Khorne.
Karanak gives one unit of crushers scout, they've got the icon for the bloodletters to come in and daisy chain from each other if they both come in. The other unit of 'Crushers are there to either threaten another flank (and have the icon/banner too) or simply provide even more target saturation. Blue scribes can try for whatever you think you need at the time; Invis, summoning, whatever while staying out of LOS. Horrors camp home objective and try not to die.
Furies either stay in reserve and cap distant objectives or go ahead and eat overwatch/a unit of shooting for the Khorne units as required. Burning chariots race up the field to shoot lascannons at transports/tanks. Skull cannon gives assault grenades to whatever the crushers charge turn 2 or has a crack at taking the last hull point off a transport.
Masque doesn't fit the theme and I cannot think of a single way to make the Changeling good remotely usable. Horrors are there as Tzeentch troops, and skull cannon so I'm not just spamming Chariots. Flesh hounds or screamers would be rad instead of one of the bloodletter & Furies units, but then, this is about using bad units, not propping them up with one of the best units in the 'dex, and both Tzeentch and Khorne have awesome fast attack choices.
Might want to consider dropping a unit of horrors and taking ADL w/Quad gun for the horrors to camp behind and get some AA.
Tau looks like you could make an ok'ish hybrid list though.
Darkstrider with the pathfinders, Stealths to harrass, Firewarriors to have lots of shots and the devilfish to provide cover/transport/objective secured as require. Vespid for anti-MEQ, Sunshark for AA, Longstrike and friends for some tank hunting or light infantry duality. Aegis to grant some of the cover that this list desperately needs.
Originally had a 7/2 sniper/firesight unit in there instead of the 3rd hammerhead, but it already had more than enough AI and very little way to deal with mech, so there you go. Could also trade out the 3rd hammerhead for a skyray with D-[pd and BSF, but again, we're trying not to rely on good units.
With the Pathfinders busy playing at being a heavy weapons team, we're going to have to rely on the tanks for BS4 and volume of fire from the stealths and fire warriors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/13 18:13:23
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
2014/12/15 18:17:38
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Flayed Ones are the classic, nuff said on these guys. They're junk like every other medium armored InfilFlankStrike melee unit. Their claws having no properties at all and zero special abilities makes em icing on the cake. Imotekh is the only prayer they have of making their points.
Lych Guard actually don't suck too much but they're never used. They are extremely costly for what they do, but the best way to bring them is with an attached HQ and a Veiltek to leap across the board. Only usable in big games.
Praetorians.....let's just say I'm absolutely amazed people complain about flayed ones when these exist. It's a dedicated forty point melee unit...with TWO attacks on the charge. Two. And a single piddly shot. Like, if their role is they wanna jump in and frag 2+ armor, they should have AP2 in melee and, oh I dunno maybe an invuln so they don't just universally die to TEQ? If you can make a list for them, power to ya.
Tomb Blades: possibly the most blatant case of GW going "our players already have one optional unit-we'd better make it super weak and release a new thing that's EXACTLY the same so people have to buy stuff". Unfortunately that fell flat because these guys are A) ugly as sin and B) a "meh" unit choice in a FOC slot that contains scarabs and wraiths. Not terrible, there's just oodles of better options
Destroyers: See above, but the unit they Nerfed down to replace with the new one. They're dead, Jim.
Orikan the Diviner: good news everyone we heard you Necrons wanted best stick HQs so we have you one! Except he stinks in combat, isn't much better even in his pseudo-MC form and lacks the options that make Necron HQs good (chariot, Warscythes, Scarabs)
Boris The Spider: the special Cryptek dude. If GW has sold a single copy of him color me surprised. Ditto as above, no chariot , no scarabs, see ya.
Trayzn the Trollfinite: never in the history of 40k has there been a rule that sounded so awesome on paper but was so worthless in practice. Hmmmmmm let's see...you put him with...Canoptek wraiths and a veiltek, and teleport into the center of an enemy ork or Nid army...then he might work. He is funny though especially as the Warlord.
Ctan Shard: Monstrous Creep at it's finest. THE ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE STARS AND THE COSMOS who comes up to the knee of a wraithknight and dies like a bitch in cc to it. He can hang out with the Avatar of Khaine and whine about kids these days and marneus Calgar.
While ranting is great fun and all, a lot of this is just factually wrong. Read the codex and FAQ again (Praetorians, for instance, do have AP2) and do some calculations on, for instance, a C'tan Shard vs. a Wraithknight (it's about even).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/18 09:10:10
2015/01/18 10:05:21
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
While ranting is great fun and all, a lot of this is just factually wrong. Read the codex and FAQ again (Praetorians, for instance, do have AP2)
They do - they're just bad of a lot of other reasons. Like being a 40pt dedicated melee unit with a single attack.
Alcibiades wrote: and do some calculations on, for instance, a C'tan Shard vs. a Wraithknight (it's about even).
Eh? You really think those are even remotely equal?
Wraithknight attacking C'tan 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/2 = 5/24 Having 4 attacks (5 when it charges) it will take the Wraithknight 4-5 rounds of combat to kill the C'tan
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that they're equal in melee (somehow - despite one wounding the other on 5s and getting wounded on 2s in return)
2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9 Having 4 attacks, it will take the C'tan 6-7 turns of combat to kill the Wraithknight.
So, the Wraithknight will win.
But, here's the thing - they will be battling entirely on the Wraithknight's terms. It can move 12", whilst the C'tan shard is stuck plodding along at 6". Also, it can be shooting 2 S10 AP2 guns at the C'tan, whilst it can, at best, respond with a single S9 AP2 shot (I think it might even have less range than the Wraithknight's cannons).
Furthermore, we're only looking at this from the perspective of them fighting each other - the Wraithknight is more mobile, much harder to kill and can contribute far more when not in combat.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2015/01/20 06:15:53
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
I will say that I don't think wraithknight encounters are few and far between, but I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a C'tan shard being used.I wonder if they will get buffed with the coming dex?
2015/01/26 02:11:17
Subject: Re:The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Thats it! The voting has closed, but what to do... the voting was real close with noise marines in the lead, followed by thousand sons and warp talons. Would you like to see a list with all of them or just noise marines?
2015/01/31 04:45:06
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Whenever you decide to do another of these things, I wanna throw my vote in for DE Hellions. I can't even look at these guys when every other DE fast attack choice is so much better than they are.
2015/01/31 05:33:41
Subject: Re:The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
i want gw to bring griffon back under the old point cost and make it with the same stats but make it. ordinace 2 accurate barrage. special rule, whens shooting the griffons heavy mortar shoots under the rules of ordinance but counts as heavy 2 for movement rules. basically this would let it get an extra shot, still reroll scatter and fire its after moving/not have to snap shot its heavy bolter.
2015/02/24 07:48:53
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Wyzilla wrote: Voting for Chaos Space Marines, specifically Warp Talons.
They're not half bad as a min charge-deterrence unit or with allied grimoire. Not bad as a retinue to a jumppack indep - namely sorc. Cause sorc is not fearless.
Don't forget that LC are prime weapons for killing bikes, asm/death company and something like 'ardboyz or ork bikers. Fear helps vs non-marines/fearless.
5 Talons are killing 4+ bikes on a charge.
Not talking about killing marines - their main role on the whole. There's plenty of 3+ droppod stuff.
Furthermore, their blind ability might get handy with the newcrons as you're gona see quite some number on ini2 shooty goodness.
Warp talon's problem is they're too situational for the points. But when the opponent's army meets the criteria, they're fine.
To be honest, i'd be more interested on how to run possessed effectively. As they're even more expensive than warp talons and have...s5 and a random table instead of LC, jumppacks and blind. Every time i've run them, the best i got from them was just reliably being in place thanks to fearless. Not a too cool feat for 26 ppm guyz. Even Crymson Slaughter possessed are used to just babysit potv sorc.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2015/02/24 10:35:19
2015/02/25 23:16:10
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
[u]Eldar: -HQ: Pretty much all Phoenix Lords, Prince Yriel, Illadin (sniper guy)
-Troops: Assault Guardians, Guardians without wave serpents
-Elites: Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Harlequins
-Fast Attack: Vipers, Swooping Hawks,
-Heavy Support: Vauls Weapons Platforms, Wraithlords, Falcons
To be fair, I have fairly regularly run in the same army:
-HQ: Prince Yriel
-Troops:Guardians without wave serpents
-Fast Attack: Vypers, Swooping Hawks,
-Heavy Support: Vauls Weapons Platforms, Wraithlords, Falcons
Spoiler:
Yriel is pretty useful for dealing with MEQ threats that get near your lines. If it's a combat squad, use the spear, if it's a full squad, throw down the pie-plate attack.
Guardian Defenders with Platforms are good back-field holding units. Give them Brightlances for AT and just let them camp a home objective. The main weapons might only have 12" range, but Shuriken catapults can still put out a bit of hurt if someone makes a move in your deployment zone. Throw in Yriels Warlord trait and the one-off re-roll 1's to wound within 12" buffs them a little.
Vypers: Okay, so they aren't ever going to be IA11 Hornets, but that aside 2 Shuriken Cannons on a fast platform for 60points isn't all that bad. They are pretty much the swiss army knife of the Eldar army as they can hurt pretty much anything apart from a monolith or land-raider. They might have paper armour, but they aren't meant to be tanking the enemies main assault, they are for flanking the enemy force and hitting from the side/rear.
Swooping Hawks: 24" range gun, only S3 AP5, but it's 3 shots, so attrition alone will whittle down targets.
Perfect for objective grabbing as they don't scatter on deep-strike, they can battle-focus to spread out and still shoot, drop the grenade template, Haywire grenades, plasma grenades, Fleet and wings all for 80 points. I love them.
Support Weapons: 30pts each... 90pts for the full squad (180 if D-cannon, but why bother?) for either 3 Str 6 (Str 7 vs I3 or lower) AP6 (Auto AP1 on a 6 to wound) Pinning or 1-3 Str7-9 AP 2-4 Pinning Barrage weapons that are T7 W2 3+ save.
I love them, they cause my opponents more grief than most other units and cost practically nothing, put out a great amount of damage relative to their cost, are hard as nails vs shooting forcing your enemy to assault them if he want's to deal with them. Absolute bargain.
Wraithlords: Not as cheap as support weapons, but frankly great value. Tough as heck, 2 flamers for mobs, 2 heavy weapons and a wraithsword for the re-rolls and they are the other swiss army knife of the Eldar army. Literally with the sword.
Falcon: This is a harder sell. With the resurrection of the Epic Serpent shield concept, Wave Serpents are better bang for buck due to the higher transport capacity but on a dakka comparison the traditional falcon loadout of Pulse Laser/Scatter Laser/Shuriken Cannon (4 S6 Ap6 laserlock 3 TL St6 AP5, 2 TL S8 AP2) is still useful, as is the fact a 6 man unit can hop in as it's not a DT.
2015/03/01 22:18:41
Subject: Re:The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
Well I presonally disagree about warpsmith. It's pretty decent choice, but very sensitive to challenging though.
I use him in formation of predator+ landrider + Ferrum Infernum dred + hell brute and works like charm.
Thousands sons work well too most of time for me, defilers are better than Maulfiends and forgfiends in my opinion, just models is incredibly big.
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2015/03/01 22:21:59
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up for this thread or not, so I apologize in advance.
But seriously, everything you mentioned of Necrons is not under rated. Pretty much everything in the book is good, especially the things you mentioned.
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2015/03/01 23:23:52
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
krodarklorr wrote: I don't know if anyone has brought this up for this thread or not, so I apologize in advance.
But seriously, everything you mentioned of Necrons is not under rated. Pretty much everything in the book is good, especially the things you mentioned.
I have only filled in what other commenters have mentioned by opinion, so if you have a different opinion about units please present your cases!
As for the necron stuff, that was per the previous codex as this thread was started before the update had come out, so if you have any new thoughts on the units in that codex please feel free to voice your opinions and I will update the list!
HQ Canoness, rosarius, combi-melta, mantle of ophelia, cloak of St. Aspira, book of saint lucius, litanies of faith 155 D2 Canoness, rosarius, combi-melta 90
Woah, who in their right mind would not take 6 swooping hawks in any hybrid eldar army. With Imperial knights roaming round and now vehicles getting a buff with 7th edition, 6 guys jumping around with an infantry killing gun and grenade pack on top of them all having haywire grenades at Initiative 5 is great!
Veritas Vos Liberabit
2015/03/02 10:52:31
Subject: The thread for the forgotten...units! Making fluffy/ underrated units work.
That is a horrible Night Lords list. If they would take a mark, they'd never go for Nurgle- Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh are the likely candidates, especially Slaanesh and Tzeentch.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
)!
-5000 pts
-2500 pts
