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2014/11/26 06:24:58
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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I love the MC hate-train that the Riptide, Dread Knight and Wraith Knight have created. A new thread everyday with an idea on how to nerf MC's, that never give one iota of thought to the 2 codices that use multitudes of MCs as staples in their list.
Admittedly I'm probably just salty because Tyranids and Daemons are my main armies on the tabletop and favourite in both fluff and aesthetics.
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2014/11/26 06:42:00
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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the_Armyman wrote: Vaktathi wrote:To be fair, there have always been IG units able to do that. That's how they manage to work as an army, especially because their other guns certainly aren't gonna do squat
Not really. Vets with three specials were a product of 4th Edition, and they became instantly popular for obvious reasons. Prior to that, if you wanted one squad with that firepower, you had to take a Special Weapon Squad. At BS3. And no transport. My point being that there used to be compromises and trade-offs when building a list. Elite units with high pricetags and/or limited range and mobility were the ones packing the heat. S10 was a rarity and for good reason. Nowadays, IG can run 15 LR Demolishers in one CAD and still be Battle Forged.
If GW hadn't dug this hole, I'd genuinely feel bad for them. There is no easy way to fix the current arms race without pissing off the playerbase (again).
Vets with 3 specials were entirely an option going back to the original 3.0E codex and 3.5E codex, they were just an Elites unit (instead of Troops) until 5E, but you could take up to 3 units of "stormtroopers" as troops with 2 specials also with the 3.5E codex.
Either way, nothing new, the only reason they increased in popularity is because the Chimera finally became something that actually worked because it wasn't nearly 100pts after kit and had fire points that didn't make it absurdly easy to kill (and the core rules changed making non-skimmer transports something other than pointless deathtraps). One will notice that people still don't run vets without a transport. A huge deal with the Vets is that they're just cheaper to buy, easier to build, and easier to transport than platoons, which are also now more expensive with the new book (particularly if you want to mechanize them) while the Vets didn't get nerfed.
As for 15 demolishers in one CAD, well, yeah, but that'd be 2550pts, exceedingly short ranged, and 15 squadroned tanks are only about as effective as ~8-10 unsquadroned tanks. Meanwhile, in terms of S10, IG lost the Medusa from the Codex, and the Manticore (through the core rules) got its primary AT capability neutered. That said, IG have always been able to run absurd amounts of stuff in a single FoC, even in 3rd edition you could get 6 tanks and like 142 infantry in each Troops FoC slot if points were no issue.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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2014/11/26 07:23:36
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Zande4 wrote:I love the MC hate-train that the Riptide, Dread Knight and Wraith Knight have created. A new thread everyday with an idea on how to nerf MC's, that never give one iota of thought to the 2 codices that use multitudes of MCs as staples in their list.
Admittedly I'm probably just salty because Tyranids and Daemons are my main armies on the tabletop and favourite in both fluff and aesthetics.
speaking just for myself, here, I'm not hating on MCs at all. I just take issue with certain mechanical walkers being arbitrarily classified as MCs (and gaining significant benefits in the process) while others are classified as vehicles. why should a riptide be classified any differently than, say, a dreadnought?
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2014/11/26 07:33:21
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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varl wrote: Zande4 wrote:I love the MC hate-train that the Riptide, Dread Knight and Wraith Knight have created. A new thread everyday with an idea on how to nerf MC's, that never give one iota of thought to the 2 codices that use multitudes of MCs as staples in their list.
Admittedly I'm probably just salty because Tyranids and Daemons are my main armies on the tabletop and favourite in both fluff and aesthetics.
speaking just for myself, here, I'm not hating on MCs at all. I just take issue with certain mechanical walkers being arbitrarily classified as MCs (and gaining significant benefits in the process) while others are classified as vehicles. why should a riptide be classified any differently than, say, a dreadnought?
It shouldn't, the Riptide variants, Dreadknight, and Wraith Constructs should all be Walkers. But unfortunately they're not. A Monstrous Creature should be just that, a creature.. not a Metal Wraithbone walking thing with a living/ghost pilot.
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2014/11/26 11:47:10
Subject: Re:Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Denmark.
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This is the third time in two days I mention it, and I'll gladly do it again - there are no reason to differnetiate Vehicles and Mobstrous Creatures in the game at the moment. They have largely the same function in game, MCs being more melee and Vehicles more transports and guns.
This doesn't mean that all differences should be removed - I'd hate that, actually. Vehicles could naturally ignore Poisoned and Fleshbane, but be vulerable to Melta (1D3 Wounds when within half range, maybe?) , Armourbaneand Lance, while MCs are untouched by Armourbane and hurt normally by Lance and Melta, but can be taken down by and Fleshbane.Poisoned
Any extra damage worth of note is already here - Concussive, Strikedown and so forth.
And of course the Riptide and Dreadknight should be Vehicles, following tge rules above.
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2014/11/26 13:02:50
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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No, too messy. There's enough to keep track of already.
The Wise Dane wrote:And of course the Riptide and Dreadknight should be Vehicles, following tge rules above.
And the Eldar Wraiths? Are they MCs or vehicles? They're built, yet have no pilot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 13:04:21
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2014/11/26 13:42:29
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Denmark.
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Skinnereal wrote:No, too messy. There's enough to keep track of already.
The Wise Dane wrote:And of course the Riptide and Dreadknight should be Vehicles, following tge rules above.
And the Eldar Wraiths? Are they MCs or vehicles? They're built, yet have no pilot.
True, but their material is biological as I recall. Choosing if the things ought to be Vehicles or MCs are basically up to the producer's feelings about, so Wraithknight could go both ways.
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2014/11/26 17:18:58
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Hungry Ghoul
Corning, NY
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The Wise Dane wrote: Skinnereal wrote:No, too messy. There's enough to keep track of already.
The Wise Dane wrote:And of course the Riptide and Dreadknight should be Vehicles, following tge rules above.
And the Eldar Wraiths? Are they MCs or vehicles? They're built, yet have no pilot.
True, but their material is biological as I recall. Choosing if the things ought to be Vehicles or MCs are basicallzy up to the producer's feelings about, so Wraithknight could go both ways.
Wraithknight has a physical pilot. It is a walker.
Wraithlord is a construct which is adopted as the physical body of a fallen Eldar spirit. It is a monstrous creature.
Wraithguard are not big enough to qualify.
I feel the "does it have a pilot" question should answer if it is a vehicle or not. Though we then have to reevaluate dreadnoughts...
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2014/11/26 18:34:36
Subject: Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Preacher of the Emperor
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No. All the monstrous creatures this would need to apply too should be walkers anyway.
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2014/11/27 08:36:21
Subject: Re:Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
Denmark.
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When merging Vehicles and MCs, ALL things classifying as Walkers and Walking MCs will be the same thing, only differentiated by their "Organic" or "Mechanical" USRs!
DID I STUTTER?
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2014/11/27 11:38:36
Subject: Re:Should you be able to destroy Limbs/Weapons on MCs?
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Hungry Ghoul
Corning, NY
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The Wise Dane wrote:When merging Vehicles and MCs, ALL things classifying as Walkers and Walking MCs will be the same thing, only differentiated by their "Organic" or "Mechanical" USRs!
DID I STUTTER?
I was saying not to merge vehicles and MCs. Just move the piloted MCs to be vehicles and keep the distinctions we have now. Im still in the "no chart for MCs" camp
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