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2014/12/10 02:59:03
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Watchful I: Hey thanks for the reply Watchful I, makes me feel happy that you folks found this little thread on Dakka Dakka. I'll be sure to keep updating from your FB page as much as possible cause I'm excited to see where this goes.
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Manchu: I know the frustration, the closet that I've come to watching a documentary on the warring states period is by watching History Channels documentary on him.
As for rules I think there is an unofficial warhammer army book dealing with a fantasy version of ancient China. Here is a link to the site.
ttp://battlereporter.freeforums.org/cathay-f87.html
And then there is the Kings of War Kingdoms of Men which you can use as a proxy army for the Warring States.
I am working on an expansion to Through Fields of Smoke and Fire (personal Rule set I'm going to Demo at Huzzah) that does feature Asian armies. Sadly goes only from the late 17th century to the Boxer Rebellion, if I knew more about the warring states I could create a ruleset.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/10 03:01:53
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2014/12/10 03:47:04
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Thanks for the replies guys.
@ Manchu - well, when we first created this company we thought we would release a set of rules first and then fill in the armies with miniatures as we went along. We decided we wanted to spend our energy and time on miniatures first and then develop a set of rules along the way and once we have a few armies released we would publish the rules. For selfish reasons we would rather populate the rulebook with our toys rather than another company. I know, shame of us for doing that. So to answer your question, yes, we have long term plans of releasing a rulebook and populating 'our world' with a few armies before the book comes out.
Joe
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2014/12/10 05:31:22
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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That's not selfish at all. It's good business.
Besides, rules are quickly discarded and forgotten by the few who even bother to look at them in the first place, but everyone loves plastic minis.
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2014/12/10 09:10:51
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Commissar-Danno wrote:
Manchu: I know the frustration, the closet that I've come to watching a documentary on the warring states period is by watching History Channels documentary on him.
As for rules I think there is an unofficial warhammer army book dealing with a fantasy version of ancient China. Here is a link to the site.
ttp://battlereporter.freeforums.org/cathay-f87.html
And then there is the Kings of War Kingdoms of Men which you can use as a proxy army for the Warring States.
I am working on an expansion to Through Fields of Smoke and Fire (personal Rule set I'm going to Demo at Huzzah) that does feature Asian armies. Sadly goes only from the late 17th century to the Boxer Rebellion, if I knew more about the warring states I could create a ruleset.
Documentaries on the First Emperor only cover part of the story, and he naturally took the credit for the final conquest and unification despite never having been recorded taking to the field in person, but arguably the writing had been on the wall since the Battle of Changping (i.e. around the time of his birth). Qin had risen to a position of dominance not just through generalship and military victories but through political reform and territorial expansion that gained it a decisive geopolitical and economic edge in the sheer number of men and resources it could bring to bear on the enemy, and this only occurred over the scale of generations, from about the time of Duke Hsiao and the reforms of Shang Yang about 140 years before the unification. Qin's edge became so large that by the time of the First Emperor, it has been argued that the other kingdoms could at best only delay the end. Of course, conquest by sheer pressure of socioeconomic forces is less romantic/heroic than tales of heroes and generals.
More inspirational Qin/Warring States era stuff/music video, including showing a short bit showing some of the Qin crossbows which were mass produced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNlI-YCVbU&list=PLiNAhjesNsPPw_nyfl4T77Eo6SMKPSbKO
A translated Chinese documentary on the First Emperor, with the 1st part showing a few weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qay14bpo6RI
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/10 09:14:34
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2014/12/10 18:09:44
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Executing Exarch
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Manchu wrote:
This is pretty frustrating considering how important the period is for all subsequent eras of Northeast Asian history, especially in terms of Chinese thought. Confucius, Zhuangzi, Sunzi ("Sun Tzu") are all famous in the West -- this when they lived and taught. The fall of the Zhou and rise of the Qin provided the paradigmatic conception of Chinese political philosophy for the next two thousand years and remains relevant even today. Chinese language itself is full of idioms derived from stories and legends of these times.
I keep hoping that we'll get a Total War game set in China, but aside from Japan (which is where the series started, after all), everything's been exclusively focused on Europe.
Booooring...
I'm hoping this turns out to be a good release. The timing's not the best where my wallet is concerned, but hopefully I can work around that if I like with the KS page ends up advertising.
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2014/12/10 18:18:44
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Eumerin wrote: Manchu wrote:
This is pretty frustrating considering how important the period is for all subsequent eras of Northeast Asian history, especially in terms of Chinese thought. Confucius, Zhuangzi, Sunzi ("Sun Tzu") are all famous in the West -- this when they lived and taught. The fall of the Zhou and rise of the Qin provided the paradigmatic conception of Chinese political philosophy for the next two thousand years and remains relevant even today. Chinese language itself is full of idioms derived from stories and legends of these times.
I keep hoping that we'll get a Total War game set in China, but aside from Japan (which is where the series started, after all), everything's been exclusively focused on Europe.
Booooring...
I'm hoping this turns out to be a good release. The timing's not the best where my wallet is concerned, but hopefully I can work around that if I like with the KS page ends up advertising.
Have you played the Kessan Mod for Rome 2?
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2014/12/10 18:21:15
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Executing Exarch
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Don't own Rome 2.
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2014/12/10 18:29:16
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Cosmic Joe
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I see this and I want to make Mulan's army. Though an accurate Han army is also very tempting.
Edit: Oh, and there is evidence that several legionaires survived as fighting slaves against some Chinese on the borders. Interesting stuff. I'll see if I can find it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/10 18:31:15
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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2014/12/10 19:54:52
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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[MOD]
Solahma
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MWHistorian wrote:I see this and I want to make Mulan's army. Though an accurate Han army is also very tempting.
I think these miniatures are based on the terracotta soldiers buried in the tomb of Qin Shihuang. The pseudo-historical Mulan is said to have lived between 600 to 800 years after this period. The Han dynasty was founded immediately after the fall of the Qin but lasted for 400+ years so bringing up an "accurate Han army" is ... a little confusing? That said, this only matters in terms of historical wargaming. If you want to make an army for Disney's Mulan, these guys should work pretty well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/10 19:55:38
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2014/12/10 20:12:50
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Cosmic Joe
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Manchu wrote: MWHistorian wrote:I see this and I want to make Mulan's army. Though an accurate Han army is also very tempting.
I think these miniatures are based on the terracotta soldiers buried in the tomb of Qin Shihuang. The pseudo-historical Mulan is said to have lived between 600 to 800 years after this period. The Han dynasty was founded immediately after the fall of the Qin but lasted for 400+ years so bringing up an "accurate Han army" is ... a little confusing? That said, this only matters in terms of historical wargaming. If you want to make an army for Disney's Mulan, these guys should work pretty well.
I should have read closer. I missed the part about the Qin.
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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2014/12/10 21:07:25
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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[MOD]
Solahma
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That actually brings up a point that I find particularly interesting about this period from the perspective of historical wargaming. The ascendance of Qin involved development away from chariot-based infantry units to huge infantry armies. This change strikes right to the heart of what is so fascinating about the Warring States period. The chariot-based army reflected the decentralized pseudo-fedual aspect of Zhou society. Charioteers were skilled warriors of noble birth supported by 10-70 retainers on foot. The increasing intensity and frequency of warfare, however, favored larger, less specialized units, the recruitment of which implicates a far more centralized social structure. The so-called Legalist school of governance that rose to especial prominence in Qin proved conducive to raising exactly this kind of force. The Legalists emphasized rule of law, which has egalitarian implications. This perfectly suited the needs of the new kind of military, in which adaptability and resourcefulness count for more than status afforded by birth. At the same time, the early Confucians argued that the virtues traditionally associated with noble birth could be cultivated by (nearly) any person through education and moral discipline. The Confucians and Legalists became deadly enemies. Li Si, the legalist prime minister of Qin, famously sentenced Qin's Confucian scholars to be buried alive. This seems odd in a sense because both schools advocated, at least indirectly, for radical social mobility. It was this very similarity, however, that highlighted their differences: for the Legalists, the ends always justified the means -- and the end was always the good of the state. Confucians utterly rejected this ruthless logic, arguing that personal moral achievement rather than brute force is the true basis for legitimate government. For the Legalists, Confucians were therefore potential traitors to the state. The Warring States period was hard on Confucians, who found themselves and their views largely dismissed at best if not outright persecuted. For one thing, they could not or refused to focus on military solutions to the problems of governing. By contrast, the Legalists believed (to oversimplify things) that because might makes right the state must militarize all of society so that it could mobilize and maintain huge, rationally administrated armies. For wargaming purposes, these historical developments might be roughly simulated by building a Qin list that downplays chariots in favor of mass crossbows. By contrast, more traditional states could do the reverse, preserving the heroic charioteer-based infantry units. For me, capturing this romantic image of an idealized past confronting the gritty pragmatism of the looming future is one of the highlights of historical wargaming.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/10 21:09:58
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2014/12/11 06:01:46
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote: MWHistorian wrote:I see this and I want to make Mulan's army. Though an accurate Han army is also very tempting.
I think these miniatures are based on the terracotta soldiers buried in the tomb of Qin Shihuang. The pseudo-historical Mulan is said to have lived between 600 to 800 years after this period. The Han dynasty was founded immediately after the fall of the Qin but lasted for 400+ years so bringing up an "accurate Han army" is ... a little confusing? That said, this only matters in terms of historical wargaming. If you want to make an army for Disney's Mulan, these guys should work pretty well.
That first line... its given me a whole new idea for a fantasy project. An entire army of terra cotta warriors. I just need to assemble, base, then spray them brown, high light the weapons then shade and I have an entire army ready to go.
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2014/12/11 14:44:59
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Infiltrating Broodlord
Lake County, Illinois
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Commissar-Danno wrote:
That first line... its given me a whole new idea for a fantasy project. An entire army of terra cotta warriors. I just need to assemble, base, then spray them brown, high light the weapons then shade and I have an entire army ready to go.
But those terra cotta soldiers were originally all painted.
Unless your terra cotta army was for modern times to face a modern opponent. But I think they wouldn't stand much chance in that case.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/11 14:45:31
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2014/12/11 15:29:54
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Albino Squirrel wrote: Commissar-Danno wrote:
That first line... its given me a whole new idea for a fantasy project. An entire army of terra cotta warriors. I just need to assemble, base, then spray them brown, high light the weapons then shade and I have an entire army ready to go.
But those terra cotta soldiers were originally all painted.
Unless your terra cotta army was for modern times to face a modern opponent. But I think they wouldn't stand much chance in that case.
Well they can be used in pulp games as well, like a horde of undead if you will.
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2014/12/11 17:01:40
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Since the idea is that statutes magically come to life I doubt the historical accuracy of the painting is too much of an issue.
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2014/12/11 17:47:03
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Executing Exarch
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Albino Squirrel wrote:Unless your terra cotta army was for modern times to face a modern opponent. But I think they wouldn't stand much chance in that case.
It depends. Are they actually earth elementals in disguise (like in one episode of 'Middleman')? That might change things up a bit.
On a more serious note, Arcane Legions ran with the "animated terra cotta warriors" angle for one of its factions. I don't know how accurate the figures were, though. Or how accurate the non-terra cotta Asian troops were.
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2014/12/11 23:59:07
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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Arcane Legions was kind of all over the place. Their Asian faction had ghostly samurai spirits in it as well if I remember. Fun stuff though.
Reaper makes a fiendish Dr. Wu figure (or at least that's what he gets called around my house) that would totally be perfect to hang out with these guys in a pulp setting. You can most certainly believe he'll be getting a few animated statues to take on that jive talkin' turkey Black Dynamite when this thing launches.
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2014/12/12 03:15:59
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Which Reaper figure are you talking about? The guy with the monkey?
I love their Jade Regent figure, even if I'm not really sure what's going on with that model's face or weapon.
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2014/12/12 03:30:10
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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As a big Three Kingdoms fan this interests me. Other than some changes I imagine a Theee Kingdoms army would look similar to a Qin or Chu-Han force b
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 03:31:50
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2014/12/12 04:09:51
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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Yeah, the guy with the monkey- Xiang Lung, Chinese Villain
Barzam went and gave him a jade monkey.
I've had an unpainted Jade Regent sitting on my desk for FAR too long now. Have never been able to make up my mind how I want to paint him.
He's on my list of things to do during vacation.
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2014/12/12 07:09:29
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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highlord tamburlaine wrote:Yeah, the guy with the monkey- Xiang Lung, Chinese Villain
Barzam went and gave him a jade monkey.
I've had an unpainted Jade Regent sitting on my desk for FAR too long now. Have never been able to make up my mind how I want to paint him.
He's on my list of things to do during vacation.
I've got that guy, too! And if you figure out a good color scheme for the Jade Regent, please let me know. Heck, I'd love to finally have a color theme for my not-Chinese troops that I'm satisfied with. Any Suggestions?
PS: You really need to have this guy sitting around unpainted:
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2015/01/21 00:21:41
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Hey folks get ready for some chariots soon
https://www.facebook.com/watchfulistudio
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2015/01/22 21:15:32
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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highlord tamburlaine wrote:Yeah, the guy with the monkey- Xiang Lung, Chinese Villain
Barzam went and gave him a jade monkey.
I've had an unpainted Jade Regent sitting on my desk for FAR too long now. Have never been able to make up my mind how I want to paint him.
He's on my list of things to do during vacation.
I don't know why, but I find that monkey miniature one of the scariest miniatures I have ever seen.
Really unsettling, even more so than the Nagash miniature or anything that has come out of Kingdom Death!
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2015/02/02 17:14:02
Subject: Re:Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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Regular Dakkanaut
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2015/02/02 21:24:16
Subject: Ancient Chinese Miniatures- Coming Soon to KIckstarter
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Thanks for letting us all know about this.
Watchful I has started an official thread so I'm going to close this one.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634008.page
Cheers!
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