Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I thik Khador relies more on their caster then any other faction really does though.

Only faction more warcaster-dependent is Cryx.

I had a 50 point game against a Cygnar player last night with eHaley and the Stormwall, and it showed me just how bad RAT 4 really is. I took the Conquest and the Stormwall outclassed it in virtually every way possible, not even taking into account the fact that Cygnar has actual defensive buffs they can put on it, while Khador has none that I'm aware of. A Stormwall with Deceleration and Arcane Shield is basically immune to shooting and almost immune to melee. Couple that with 6+ shots per turn AND being able to drop a lightning pod AND having better covering fire templates, and I don't see how that thing is even remotely balanced with the others.

In the end though he got careless and I got a charge land with a Blood of Kings Vlad1 to Haley, and she went splat.

Still, I constantly find myself outclassed with Khador. I don't feel we have anything to deal with the shooting that Cygnar can do, or the attrition of Menoth (for instance what does Khador have that can compare with Bastions + Seneschal? They're better than our MoW in every way possible and being weaponmasters can mulch anything we put against them), or basically anything other than having good single wound infantry that can die easily to blasts and whatnot. That remains a major pain point for me in that I feel our infantry isn't as good anymore since others can have good infantry too and generally have more buffs that they can put out, with no balancing factor.

Khador basically has Butcher and Vlad, and that's supposed to make up for lackluster everything else. Butcher (especially Butcher3) can basically take out an army by himself, but if you ask me that's not balance to make everything else we have subpar or not able to do as much work or get buffed as much.

Same issue one of the top Khador players had at the UK Masters. He won it two years in a row with Khador's usual trick of lots of DEF17+ infantry spam.

Then Stormwall came out and he played dozens of practice games and decided that Khador simply couldn't win vs. Cygnar with Stormwall. So he jumped ship to Legion and won the Masters that year with them.

He did discuss in a later podcast possibly trying again with PVlad and Conquest. No idea how that went.

A Stormwall with Deceleration and Arcane Shield is basically immune to shooting and almost immune to melee.

From Khador maybe. A lot of the factions can deal damage to the stormwall and one round it. But Khador crutches on its single wound infantry and they never get to see it in melee.

Khador basically has Butcher and Vlad

Apparently Sorscha's good as well.

Butcher (especially Butcher3) can basically take out an army by himself, but if you ask me that's not balance to make everything else we have subpar or not able to do as much work or get buffed as much.

I refer you to my "Vlad Tax" theory above. Because he makes everything so good with one spell, Khador doesn't get the shiny toys. Ergo the only way PP can add good things to Khador is with a new caster, otherwise the new addition just invalidates an entire unit.


Gaz

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had a 50 point game against a Cygnar player last night with eHaley and the Stormwall, and it showed me just how bad RAT 4 really is. I took the Conquest and the Stormwall outclassed it in virtually every way possible, not even taking into account the fact that Cygnar has actual defensive buffs they can put on it, while Khador has none that I'm aware of. A Stormwall with Deceleration and Arcane Shield is basically immune to shooting and almost immune to melee. Couple that with 6+ shots per turn AND being able to drop a lightning pod AND having better covering fire templates, and I don't see how that thing is even remotely balanced with the others.

In the end though he got careless and I got a charge land with a Blood of Kings Vlad1 to Haley, and she went splat.

Still, I constantly find myself outclassed with Khador. I don't feel we have anything to deal with the shooting that Cygnar can do, or the attrition of Menoth (for instance what does Khador have that can compare with Bastions + Seneschal? They're better than our MoW in every way possible and being weaponmasters can mulch anything we put against them), or basically anything other than having good single wound infantry that can die easily to blasts and whatnot. That remains a major pain point for me in that I feel our infantry isn't as good anymore since others can have good infantry too and generally have more buffs that they can put out, with no balancing factor.

Khador basically has Butcher and Vlad, and that's supposed to make up for lackluster everything else. Butcher (especially Butcher3) can basically take out an army by himself, but if you ask me that's not balance to make everything else we have subpar or not able to do as much work or get buffed as much.

Why are you entering into a gunfight with Cygnar under those conditions? A feated + Signs and Portented Conquest will almost one round an Arcane Shielded Stormwall (you just need to put in 6 extra damage).

Like others have said, Khador is probably the most caster dependant faction out there, you will need to tailor your caster to your army. Do you wan't to out attrition Menoth? Choose eIrusk. Do you wan't your infantry to have outrageous damage output in mellee? Choose Butcher. Do you wan't a shooting heavy force? Choose pVlad. Etc, etc.

WayneTheGame wrote:
In the end though he got careless and I got a charge land with a Blood of Kings Vlad1 to Haley, and she went splat.

This is how you fight most Gargantuans and Colossals.

Remember. The game isn't about tableing your opponent, the game is about the scenario/killing the warcaster.

WayneTheGame wrote:I had a 50 point game against a Cygnar player last night with eHaley and the Stormwall, and it showed me just how bad RAT 4 really is. I took the Conquest and the Stormwall outclassed it in virtually every way possible, not even taking into account the fact that Cygnar has actual defensive buffs they can put on it, while Khador has none that I'm aware of. A Stormwall with Deceleration and Arcane Shield is basically immune to shooting and almost immune to melee. Couple that with 6+ shots per turn AND being able to drop a lightning pod AND having better covering fire templates, and I don't see how that thing is even remotely balanced with the others.

Firstly, shooting isn't meant to bring down the big guys. It's support. Melee is where the massive damage is done. And I’d hardly consider the thing ‘immune’ to melee. Khador does ‘excessive force’ extremely well. a kiss from Aiyanna, fury, or battle lust combined with some great bears, iron fangs or an uhlan charge (personal favourite). Covering fire? Pfft. My cavalry laugh at it. Then there is the current anti-armour king (or queen, rather) of khador which is personified by epic Sorscha. If you’re bothered about pesky upkeeps, then take Eiryss along. Stormwalls are nasty, but all that means is it should be the top priority. TH problem isn’t that the Conquest is poor, its that the Stormwall is that bit OTT. It is, however, not broken. There are enough answers to it in the game.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Still, I constantly find myself outclassed with Khador. I don't feel we have anything to deal with the shooting that Cygnar can do, or the attrition of Menoth (for instance what does Khador have that can compare with Bastions + Seneschal? They're better than our MoW in every way possible and being weaponmasters can mulch anything we put against them), or basically anything other than having good single wound infantry that can die easily to blasts and whatnot. That remains a major pain point for me in that I feel our infantry isn't as good anymore since others can have good infantry too and generally have more buffs that they can put out, with no balancing factor.
.

Why? I got back into Khador this year, and I’m loving them. We can deal with Cygnar. Shooting? High armour. We’ve got ARM22 black dragon pikemen, who are frankly, nuts with the Kovnik, and since the dawn of colossals, our cavalry has found its niche. I’ve been running the uhlan boat (max uhlans + Markov) a lot and they’re extremely solid, and a lot better than the ‘casually dismissed’ view that is typical regarding cavalry. Khador isn't about 'just' single wound infantry. My huge issue with our love of high def single wound infantry spam as the 'only' thing khador does is that it blinds people to a wealth of viable alternative options.

Regarding Menoth, I’ve never found them able to out attriton khador. Bastions? Really? Khador is the tough, damage output faction. Bastions aren’t a problem. I’ve faced them, and never been phased by them. And so what that they can kill a bunch of stuff – this is warmachine. Everything can kill stuff. Khador happen to be rather good at it too. Beyond that, bring irusk to the party, drop inhospitable ground and watch menoth weep with an army that largely lacks pathfinder. No arguments regarding lacklustre Men o War – with eIrusk, they’re solid, otherwise they fall short. Its not unfixable though, thankfully.

Khador’s infantry is solid. I don’t understand your view that it “isn’t as good any more” because its not backed up by the reality that I see, and the metas that I study. High def was a janky, and ‘obvious’ party trick, and it blinded people to a lot of the versatility that Khador can wield. And Khador’s playbook has grown a lot lately. You’ve got your traditional winter guard, boomhowlers, and nyss hunters, who are still, despite what the internets say, extremely solid, backed up by the likes of the new Outriders and the IFK has breathed new life into our Iron Fangs and even Kommandos (they’ve been surprisingly me lately! Especially against legion). Our cavalry has found its niche too.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Khador basically has Butcher and Vlad, and that's supposed to make up for lackluster everything else. Butcher (especially Butcher3) can basically take out an army by himself, but if you ask me that's not balance to make everything else we have subpar or not able to do as much work or get buffed as much.

If you see khador as only one thing, then you’re only fooling yourself Wayne. Everything else lacklustre? Short sighted and inaccurate. You’re doing the faction a disservice, and falsely selling them short. At the recent world team championship, something like 80% of the khador playbook hit the table top, and khador ended up with the highest overall win rate of any faction. With respect, it sounds like the issue isn’t with the faction at all – from what I’ve been seeing, khador is riding pretty high at the moment. Khador isn’t a faction that asks a lot of tricky ‘questions’, it is, however, a faction with a lot of ‘answers’.

Gazzor wrote:Same issue one of the top Khador players had at the UK Masters. He won it two years in a row with Khador's usual trick of lots of DEF17+ infantry spam.
Then Stormwall came out and he played dozens of practice games and decided that Khador simply couldn't win vs. Cygnar with Stormwall. So he jumped ship to Legion and won the Masters that year with them.
He did discuss in a later podcast possibly trying again with PVlad and Conquest. No idea how that went.

Jamie p.
That was about two or three years ago. A lot of things have changed. Black dragons, outriders and ifk's have genuinely reinvigorated the faction. Fact is, Jamie p came back.

Edit. This post on the pp boards sums up my thoughts quite nicely. Cheers to lunar sol.

LunarSol wrote:I've yet to play a game where this sentiment and feeling doesn't set in at some point. Sometimes the feeling is a real problem with the game, but most of the time the truth is that relatively few players are truly into creative min/maxing and iterative list design. Remember that every player has to choose something and for most people, they'd rather go with something vetted by someone else than spend the time failing into success. That's true with anything really.

There's way more available to every faction that's viable than people think. The trick is that there are comparatively few things that anyone has put the time and effort into honing to a razors edge. Just look at the last two Invitationals: one was Sevy2 vs Kaya2 while the one before that involved Assault Kommandos facing down Dahlia and Skarath. Most people just aren't willing to put the effort into developing new designs and sadly, fewer still are willing to listen until they're proven on a major stage. Just look how long it took Warders to become a Troll stable or for Sorscha1 to become popular after the release of Wyshnayler.

I don't think there's a faction with less than 6 competitively viable casters (except Cyriss I suppose) and even then, I'd wager most are closer to the 8-10 range. The hard part is coming up with a list and moreover coming up with a list that pairs well with that list. The more you wipe the slate clean, the better chance you often have to finding the next big thing, but sadly, the easier it is to slip back into old, comfortable territory.

Fact is, Jamie p came back.

Glad to hear it. With Stormwall PP gave Khador the stick to stop spamming high DEF infantry, but no carrot to make the other stuff worth taking. Seems like they're starting to sort them out at last, which is good.

Gazzor wrote:

Fact is, Jamie p came back.

Glad to hear it. With Stormwall PP gave Khador the stick to stop spamming high DEF infantry, but no carrot to make the other stuff worth taking. Seems like they're starting to sort them out at last, which is good.

I disagree. Khador always had 'answers', the community as a whole was simply unwilling to look beyond 'iron flesh, kayazy and wgids' as a plan. New stuff was universally hated on, as were older and alternative 'answers' because they did not fit the small box of high def spam. Colossals shifted the meta to one that requires a hard anti armour ability, but people were unwilling to move. Options were there, regardless. Butcher 1 saw a revival. feat turn, fury and uhlan boat charge. Guess what that'll do to a stormwall from crazy range, whilst also laughing maniacally at the stormy's vaunted covering fire.

Look at the response vlad 3 and outriders got when they initially hit. Hated. Not good enough. Terrible. Etc. and yet, now, they're both quite popular and well regarded. Certainly no where near as bad as people claimed and ranted about.

Since then, there has simply been more of an effort on the part of the community to branch out and explore other options. People have been surprised that options previously scoffed at, and dismissed are actually rather effective and have a role to play- look at the resurgence in use of uhlans and other cavalry as a single example.. People like kriegspiel on the pp boards have helped ferment a far more positive and embracive attitude than the sea of toxicity that was there when Jamie p jumped ship for everblight that one year. Combine this with the most recent wave of excellent tools, excellent models and solos (black dragons. If kovniks, outriders, eliminators, etc) and even casters and you have an interesting faction with a nce play book. A lot of people argue khador 'won' vengeance, or tied with retribution. I don't disagree.

Could things be better? Yes. Absolutely. Men o war. Most crucially. Also, Assault kommandos are under appreciated and under used, and whilst sirprisingly useful and more effective than people give them credit for, a ua granting even as simple a thing as cra would do a huge amount of good. A solo through which casters can channel spells (like circle's bark nodes), some ancillary jack support/battlegroup solos (a greylord with artillerist for example) to allow for a more jack heavy style wouldn't go amiss either, and I'd like to see an arm buff available to infantry (inviolable resolve is nice, but I personally find unyielding far more thematic) but being honest, these even considering g these issues, khador is quite a healthy faction.

Black Dragons are ARM 22 for one turn, then they're ARM 18 if you can Shieldwall. That's not a ton if you are facing Weaponmasters (which can often be the high ARM troops that IFP are meant to combat) or something that can ignore Shieldwall (which Menoth also has a few things that can do), at which point they die pretty easily. Don't get me wrong I love my BDIFP but thus far my opponents haven't had a very hard time killing them if they really try, although I love the BDIFP as a tarpit unit and while they often end up not being able to contribute, they hold the line admirably.

Winter Guard (all types) die like flies to anything that can ignore high DEF, which is a lot of things, and Khador has no way to buff actual armor so essentially any hit is going to be a kill, not even counting things like pFeora's feat or a Vassal + Vanquisher blowing them apart from range with two AOEs. Joe's speeches can help them live but that's still just a 33% chance of being Tough.

One 'Jack can typically get beaten down by an enemy 'Jack (who can also get more buffs on them that matter i.e. ARM buffs), especially if it's an undercosted powerhouse like the Reckoner, and that's not assuming that your opponent is fielding 2-3 heavies that can just double-team your one 'Jack and one round it.

I just don't see it. Maybe it's me.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Black Dragons are ARM 22 for one turn, then they're ARM 18 if you can Shieldwall. That's not a ton if you are facing Weaponmasters (which can often be the high ARM troops that IFP are meant to combat) or something that can ignore Shieldwall (which Menoth also has a few things that can do), at which point they die pretty easily. Don't get me wrong I love my BDIFP but thus far my opponents haven't had a very hard time killing them if they really try, although I love the BDIFP as a tarpit unit and while they often end up not being able to contribute, they hold the line admirably.

Winter Guard (all types) die like flies to anything that can ignore high DEF, which is a lot of things, and Khador has no way to buff actual armor so essentially any hit is going to be a kill, not even counting things like pFeora's feat or a Vassal + Vanquisher blowing them apart from range with two AOEs. Joe's speeches can help them live but that's still just a 33% chance of being Tough.

One 'Jack can typically get beaten down by an enemy 'Jack (who can also get more buffs on them that matter i.e. ARM buffs), especially if it's an undercosted powerhouse like the Reckoner, and that's not assuming that your opponent is fielding 2-3 heavies that can just double-team your one 'Jack and one round it.

I just don't see it. Maybe it's me.

It's not about having immunity: opponent Wayne. And that seems to be what you want.

And yes, stuff dies. That's warmachine. Everything is expendable, and is a coin to be 'spent' to break your opponents army. If khadors stuff was utterly unkillable, it wouldn't be healthy for the game now, would it? I know you're not meaning to, and I know this isn't your intention, but this almost comes across like a case of sour grapes, that you're annoyed that you're not the only 'special boy' with cool toys, and they shouldn't get to play with them.

That arm22 is there to protect against small arms and blast damage on the crucial turn prior to charging in. You know - the stuff that kills you before you get to fight back. You need it to help you on that one turn. After that, It does it's job, and turns the math in your favour. What protects against weapon masters is killing them first. And killing stuff is what Khador does best.

Hi def is still useful. Def17-19 is never to be sneezed at, even by boosted aimed choir buffed menite jacks. Don't dismiss it so readily. That arm 13 won't save you against a direct hit, but it's quite decent against blast damage. Tough, high def, spreading out when facing aoe's (common sense really...) and naturally decent arm means Those winter guard are quite decent already. Then there is sneaky stuff like running a few dudes ahead who are wearing ternion or tac clouds and blocking los behind them. Talking about arm buffs is a red herring. They're not necessary. In any case, with sonething like arcane shield would be arm16. By your own standards, thats 'not a lot either'. Especially 'if they really try' to deal with it. (Again, do you want them to be unable to hurt you? It sounds like it. Sounds like you what to be fifth ed grey knights and everyone else to be fifth ed tau. That's simply not good fir the game.) they can deal with Hugh def. they can deal with high arm. News flash: so can you. Especially when they (and you) can strip those Upkeeps and deny the spells that cause all the ruckus. It's almost like there are tools available to deal with every situation, and that you only need to to play smart to get the most out of them.
Which is the point. Despite what you say, You don't need high arm to make units useful. And despite what you say, tough is fine. mSo it seems to be that you'e simply not happy,regardless of what you're given, or what options are available. Everything they can do is too easy. Nothing you can do is easy, or good enough, eh. Page 5 it's that simple. Play menoth. Or cygnar. I guarantee you that the grass is not greener. I dunno. While all your stuff is dying, I find it hard to believe that you can't do anything in return,that things 'don't contribute', And is just standing there doing sweet bugger all.

Those 3 jacks? Yeah, it's not like khador can't deal with armour. I see 20pts of jack on the table, I smile. 3 versus one of anything in this game is a dead one. I don't know what you're trying to prove by saying this. ]Giving out about that is like complaining water is wet. In any case, turn your infantry against his jacks. A few battle lusted iron fangs murder any jack or beast.and it's not like your jacks can't murder theirs either, especially when buffed (if we can talk about reckoners with arm buffs, we can talk about juggernauts, spriggan and grolars with damage buffs in turn.
Those weapon masters? Kill them before they get there. Kill them first. Widowmakers for the knights, and the bastions are slow so you'll get te drop on them. Especially if you've gut irusk.

Warmachine is not about giving out and whining and moaning about you're friends toys being too shiny. That's the crap 40k players drop. Warmachine players are more assertive. It's not about 'that thing kills my doods'. Its about being proactive. It's about not being afraid, and taking that damned thing on in the first place, and going out and smashing it or neutering it's effectiveness.

And I'm sorry Wayne. But You're wrong. Khador has the answers. The fact that they're do suspending placing high in a lot of tournaments suggests their power level is fine, and that they're capable of holding their own in the meta.

Warmachine is not about giving out and whining and moaning about you're friends toys being too shiny. That's the crap 40k players drop. Warmachine players are more assertive. It's not about 'that thing kills my doods'. It's about not being afraid, and taking that thing on and going out and smashing it. And I'm sorry. You're wrong. Khador has the answers.

Yep, it's called Butcher 3.

(It's only 1 answer, but it's such a good answer it counts as 10+ normal answers IMO).

Anyway, back to the OP. Whatever you decide to buy, do not, for the love of the Empress, buy Bombardiers. They're utter cack. A unit that looks good on paper but never fails to disappoint on the tabletop.


Gaz

Gazzor wrote:

Warmachine is not about giving out and whining and moaning about you're friends toys being too shiny. That's the crap 40k players drop. Warmachine players are more assertive. It's not about 'that thing kills my doods'. It's about not being afraid, and taking that thing on and going out and smashing it. And I'm sorry. You're wrong. Khador has the answers.

Yep, it's called Butcher 3.

(It's only 1 answer, but it's such a good answer it counts as 10+ normal answers IMO).

He's solid. Very, very solid. But if you can factor in spell denial, he starts to suffer greatly. He's an answer (certainly not ten answers!), but ultimately, an extremely dangerous, but a known quantity. and personally I prefer Vlad 3 (who actuslly supports his army reliably with multiple game plans as well as being able to beat face), but butcher 3 is only one answer amongst many. Focusing on him to the exclusion of the rest of the faction is foolish, and a sign of a lack of imagination, if you ask me. The sorschas and the irusks are also hot property and the old witch says 'no' better than almost anyone else.

Deadnight wrote:
Warmachine is not about giving out and whining and moaning about you're friends toys being too shiny. That's the crap 40k players drop. Warmachine players are more assertive. It's not about 'that thing kills my doods'. It's about not being afraid, and taking that thing on and going out and smashing it. And I'm sorry. You're wrong. Khador has the answers.

It's more about "Why does that thing kill my doods and what can I do about it?", too.

My FLGS has a Press Ganger whose normal response to people complaining about some models being better than others is to challenge them to a game using Zerkova and wipe the floor with them.

But you are free to complain about tier lists

Playing Khador is like stock car racing: there aren't a bunch of nifty tricks, and on paper, it's not like you're playing with all the neatest gizmos. You don't have ret's power fields or caster hate, you don't have cygnar's ranged shenanigans, you lack menoth's intricate web of synergies, there is none of cryx's disposable arc nodes, or convergence's weirdness with caster-level shooting and punching skills. You are the axe, or the maul. Your lists are not going to be cryx's ice-pick of debuffs, trying to isolate and cripple key sections of your opponent's army, nor menoth's tower shield, waiting for an incorrect strike to punish with a hard counterblow. You have the capacity to take it on the chin, and then, bloodied, but not beaten, proceed to perform rudimentary dentistry with the repeated, and brisk, application of your gauntleted fist.

I've seen widowmakers that just -don't - get hit, i've played khador lists that are disgustingly quick. The thing about khador isn't that they get everyone else's coolest toys, it's that they get everyone else's second-coolest toys, and they get them with fewer drawbacks. Generally speaking,if i see a Khador player struggling, it's because they're new, and underthinking their plays, or old-hat, and overthinking their list. The maul is not subtle, but you don't need to swing it overly much to get the devastating results you're looking for, either.

Dronze wrote:
...it's not like you're playing with all the neatest gizmos...

I know I've never met warcasters that are scarier one-on-one than Khador's.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Dronze wrote:
...it's not like you're playing with all the neatest gizmos...

I know I've never met warcasters that are scarier one-on-one than Khador's.

agreed, but "walk in, beat face" isn't exactly a gimmick. Khador can get its casters nice and riled up, but they don't do anything too terribly complicated or nuanced.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Dronze wrote:
...it's not like you're playing with all the neatest gizmos...

I know I've never met warcasters that are scarier one-on-one than Khador's.

Perhaps, but IMHO that's not a substitute for lacking everywhere else. My brother (who is a newish player and plays Legion) says the same thing all the time. I'll say how MoW aren't really good, and he retorts with "You have Butcher3", basically anything I say I dislike gets called "whining" because of Butcher and specifically Butcher3 being so powerful. Khador's playstyle isn't that great for me, it's literally variations of "Apply axe to face" which is fine, but other factions can be pretty badass in melee too AND get other things to boot.

Sometimes I honestly feel that PP isn't sure what to do about Khador. I often see it said that we can never have an Arc Node available to everyone because Sorscha could arc Freezing Grip, we can't get something to increase our control range because of S&P and our powerful feats, etc. But it seems that other factions can do that and arc really powerful spells or extend amazing feats (Caine and eHaley spring to mind). Other factions can have great multi-wound infantry and run lots of heavies with support (Menoth), but for some reason either of these would be bad with Khador. Other factions can make their infantry as good or better than ours due to buffs that have zero drawback (compare Defender's Ward to Iron Flesh, DW is better in basically every way possible), and can still run and buff Warjacks better than we can.

The faction feels stale and outdated. Whether or not that's actually true, that's how it feels a lot of the time. Most of our things require specific casters because our spells really aren't ubiquitous beyond Iron Flesh, which IMHO isn't a really great spell since A) High DEF is easily ignored and B) The SPD penalty. If we had access to Superiority or Battle Lust or even Fury on a multitude of casters it would help, but we don't have nearly as much access to our good spells as say Cygnar has with access to Blur and Arcane Shield, even Deadeye and Snipe. Instead, people point to X spell which is good but requires a specific caster and therefore requires a specific type of army to be created.