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Dronze wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

I could drop the Widowmakers and add in a Mortar, or keep the Widowmakers but drop the War Dog. I'm wondering if I have enough shooting between the WGRC and Nyss, although Sniper seems like it would be very useful.

Widowmakers with the defensive buff spell (iron skin, iirc) are almost always a good pick. Stick them in some woods, and they're nearly impossible to hit. They don't do much to high-armor models on their own, but they handle cleanup well, and can hold down an objective if need be.

They're also pretty good for picking off UAs and support solos (in this case the book).

So I managed to win via assassination after my opponent moved Harby in to use Cataclysm to clear out my Pikemen since it auto hits so he had no problem using it on them while in melee. If I didn't get it I would have lost on scenario as he had bastions with seneschal and Rhupert in one zone and the Avatar and two Paladins (I killed Vilmon) in the other and I had no way to remove them with the list I brought. However with his mistake Harby was in range of my Spriggan and he skewered her.

I'll take the win but feel as though I was totally outclassed in the game.

WayneTheGame wrote:
So I managed to win via assassination after my opponent moved Harby in to use Cataclysm to clear out my Pikemen since it auto hits so he had no problem using it on them while in melee. If I didn't get it I would have lost on scenario as he had bastions with seneschal and Rhupert in one zone and the Avatar and two Paladins (I killed Vilmon) in the other and I had no way to remove them with the list I brought. However with his mistake Harby was in range of my Spriggan and he skewered her.

I'll take the win but feel as though I was totally outclassed in the game.

So, what did you learn?

WayneTheGame wrote:
So I managed to win via assassination after my opponent moved Harby in to use Cataclysm to clear out my Pikemen since it auto hits so he had no problem using it on them while in melee. If I didn't get it I would have lost on scenario as he had bastions with seneschal and Rhupert in one zone and the Avatar and two Paladins (I killed Vilmon) in the other and I had no way to remove them with the list I brought. However with his mistake Harby was in range of my Spriggan and he skewered her.

I'll take the win but feel as though I was totally outclassed in the game.

It sounds like you played it right. You can't expect to look like you're winning against Menoth simply because they do attrition so much better than you do, anyone else is going to beat Menoth on assassination a lot more than on scenario.

I have to wonder why he gave you the win like that... cataclysm is a good spell, and harbinger's ability to mow down models in cc is pretty good, but why rush your caster up when there are no viable threats to your board position?

Dronze wrote:
I have to wonder why he gave you the win like that... cataclysm is a good spell, and harbinger's ability to mow down models in cc is pretty good, but why rush your caster up when there are no viable threats to your board position?

He said he wanted to Dominate a zone to win immediately instead of a turn or two later and he got careless thinking my Spriggan couldn't reach him.

What did I learn? Menoth is way better at attrition than Khador could dream of being and even if you're losing if you see an opportunity take it. I spent the better part of a turn trying to kill the Covenant since it was moving dangerously close to prevent Irusk from casting. If he had Martyred it he would have blocked a charge lane maybe although I think my Spriggan could have used bulldoze.

Also Bastions are crazy. Even battle lusted IFP barely did anything. Although he did have to martyr one. He's now gloating about how he's getting a Hierophant so he can heal Harby after martyring something.

His list was:

Harby
- Crusader
- Vanquisher
Avatar
Min Choir
Max Bastions
Bastion Seneschal
Rhupert
The Book
High Paladin
2x Paladins
2x Vassals
Vassal Mechanic
Wrack

Very nasty. But he played well and I got REALLY lucky (second game in a row. Last week I played Haley2 and Stormwall and won only because I clipped Haley on a charge with a buffed Vlad). He fell short on a charge with Vilmon and I shot him down, and the aforementioned Harby being moved up. Otherwise, he was steamrolling me. We were playing the Outflank SR2015 scenario. I deployed my pikemen by the right zone with the Nyss, the Rifle Corps on the left zone, with the Spriggan towards the middle; I advanced deployed the Widowmakers ahead of the middle, with Eiryss behind the wall so she could move where appropriate (although in retrospect I should have taken Eiryss1 and not 2, as I forgot Harby doesn't have upkeep spells). Terrain wise we had a blocking wall on either size, an impassable building on the right side, one forest in the left zone and the other just in front of the right zone. He put the Paladins, Vilmon and the Avatar on the left side and he was basically able to control that zone the entire game as I had nothing to dislodge the Avatar, with the Crusader, Vanquisher and Book in the middle, the Bastions w/Seneschal and Rhupert on the right side, and Harby kind of in the back between the two groups (before moving her). So with only single wound infantry and the only really hard-hitting pieces on my side being the Pikemen, I wasn't able to do much to spread my forces to try for both zones (especially not one with a super-Warjack and three guys who can get to ARM21), and realistically I'm not going to be buying a second unit of Pikemen anytime soon because they're so expensive and frustrating to assemble. So far the Nyss have been a bit of a letdown, but I've only used them thus far against armies with fairly high ARM and I suspect they'd be much better off playing against something like Circle with their ability to ignore forests for LOS.

I doubt my luck will last though. Most people here seem to play attrition and Khador has a rough time with that it seems due to all the single would infantry. I also learned Menoth is a pretty cool faction. If we do a journeyman league might get a small force or there's always the forthcoming 35 point box.

WayneTheGame wrote:
[
Also Bastions are crazy. Even battle lusted IFP barely did anything.

How so? Four dice of damage on the charge, at dice minus three against bastions. Dice minus one if they've been kissed by aiyanna.That's an average of 10-13 damage per pikey.

WayneTheGame wrote:


What did I learn? Menoth is way better at attrition than Khador could dream of being

So with only single wound infantry and the only really hard-hitting pieces on my side being the Pikemen, I wasn't able to do much to spread my forces to try for both zones (especially not one with a super-Warjack and three guys who can get to ARM21), and realistically I'm not going to be buying a second unit of Pikemen anytime soon because they're so expensive and frustrating to assemble. So far the Nyss have been a bit of a letdown, but I've only used them thus far against armies with fairly high ARM and I suspect they'd be much better off playing against something like Circle with their ability to ignore forests for LOS.

I doubt my luck will last though. Most people here seem to play attrition and Khador has a rough time with that it seems due to all the single would infantry. I also learned Menoth is a pretty cool faction. If we do a journeyman league might get a small force or there's always the forthcoming 35 point box.

I suspect it's more a case of the underlined section, than khador being bad attrition.

Secondly, khador does well at attrition. They can take the hit, and hit back. Attrition isn't just as simple about being able to receive the charge and survive it. If that's the case, nothing does well at attrition. And boiling the game down to just attrition is one dimensional. It's also about controlling the game via movement and positioning, control shenanigans to stop him going where he wants (inhospitable ground etc) forcing key piece trades where you want them, and alpha striking/taking out his pieces before they can engage. Khador can contest in every one of those areas.

There is no reason to fear menoth, or think they're 'better' than khador.

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
[
Also Bastions are crazy. Even battle lusted IFP barely did anything.

How so? Four dice of damage on the charge, at dice minus three against bastions. That's an average of 10-11 damage per pikey.

Well, I happened to miss with 2 of them, and the I didn't know that the Seneschal had that ability where he can hit someone who moves into his range, so one got killed from him immediately since he was in range. Besides that it was just bad rolls, I think the highest I got on damage was an 11 on one guy... it was mostly like 5s and 6s and he was able to shift it all around, so one guy was about to get killed but Harby used Martyrdom after he failed his Tough check from Rhupert, so the entire unit lived. That was the entire reason I battle-lusted them, along with using Iron Zeal so I was ARM 18 but that didn't help a ton against them the following turn and they were wiped out except for one guy, the leader and the standard.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
[
Also Bastions are crazy. Even battle lusted IFP barely did anything.

How so? Four dice of damage on the charge, at dice minus three against bastions. That's an average of 10-11 damage per pikey.

Well, I happened to miss with 2 of them, and the I forgot the Seneschal had that ability where he can hit someone who moves into his range, so one got killed from him immediately since he was in range. Besides that it was just bad rolls, I think the highest I got on damage was an 11 on one guy... it was mostly like 5s and 6s and he was able to shift it all around, so one guy was about to get killed but Harby used Martyrdom after he failed his Tough check from Rhupert. That was the entire reason I battle-lusted them, along with using Iron Zeal so I was ARM 18 but that didn't help a ton against them the following turn and they were wiped out except for one guy, the leader and the standard.

So your dice sucked,not the iron fangs. And bastions aren't amazing, your dice sucked. Let's be clear, there is a big difference between the two narratives.I've taken out a whole squad of bastions with a stalker, even with him shifting damage around. I've done the same with pikeys.

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
[
Also Bastions are crazy. Even battle lusted IFP barely did anything.

How so? Four dice of damage on the charge, at dice minus three against bastions. That's an average of 10-11 damage per pikey.

Well, I happened to miss with 2 of them, and the I forgot the Seneschal had that ability where he can hit someone who moves into his range, so one got killed from him immediately since he was in range. Besides that it was just bad rolls, I think the highest I got on damage was an 11 on one guy... it was mostly like 5s and 6s and he was able to shift it all around, so one guy was about to get killed but Harby used Martyrdom after he failed his Tough check from Rhupert. That was the entire reason I battle-lusted them, along with using Iron Zeal so I was ARM 18 but that didn't help a ton against them the following turn and they were wiped out except for one guy, the leader and the standard.

So your dice sucked,not the iron fangs. Let's be clear, there is a big difference between the two.

Same thing to me, honestly. Although I love my Iron Fangs, if they weren't so damn expensive I'd love to have a second unit (or more, for Claws of the Dragon) but at that price point no way in hell... maybe if they ever make them in plastic. I actually thought of using Shield Wall + Zeal and moving up, but I think I wouldn't have been in range. They performed their duties well, and the Motherland will remember their noble sacrifices

In retrospect though I might have taken Butcher instead, I didn't get a chance to use Irusk's feat since basically all of his stuff was either too far to the side or was already in combat, although the Bond on the Spriggan helped with being able to boost attacks with the lance (since it was straight dice on Harby) and then buy another and boost that one to close it out.

WayneTheGame wrote:


Same thing to me, honestly.

No,not really. Shoddy dice is no reason to write off or downplay the effectiveness of a unit, or over rate something else. The math says a different story, and I trust math. The fact my dice flopped and failed to kill anything is no reason to say what I failed to kill is amazing. That's just poor analysis.

WayneTheGame wrote:

In retrospect though I might have taken Butcher instead, I didn't get a chance to use Irusk's feat since basically all of his stuff was either too far to the side or was already in combat, although the Bond on the Spriggan helped with being able to boost attacks with the lance (since it was straight dice on Harby) and then buy another and boost that one to close it out.

Irusk2? No charges/-2 speed is brutal against menoth. And everyone else. You should be dropping it on turn two, on the turn before/after Harry drops hers to stop her getting a leg up. it's the reason why irusk always controls the game. If it's irusk 1, you're giving up 4+ tough, no knockdown and +2 to hit. Along with inhospitable ground, again, there is no reason you can't be in control of the game.

So with respect, combine your poor dice rolls with playing poorly/unfamiliarity with certain pieces (not feating, not knowing about the seneschal). Shrug. Im not buying your 'khador are bad at attrition' attitude.

Deadnight wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:


Same thing to me, honestly.

No,not really. Shoddy dice is no reason to write off or downplay the effectiveness of a unit, or over rate something else. The math says a different story, and I trust math. The fact my dice flopped and failed to kill anything is no reason to say what I failed to kill is amazing. That's just poor analysis.

WayneTheGame wrote:

In retrospect though I might have taken Butcher instead, I didn't get a chance to use Irusk's feat since basically all of his stuff was either too far to the side or was already in combat, although the Bond on the Spriggan helped with being able to boost attacks with the lance (since it was straight dice on Harby) and then buy another and boost that one to close it out.

Irusk2? No charges/-2 speed is brutal against menoth. And everyone else. You should be dropping it on turn two, on the turn before/after Harry drops hers to stop her getting a leg up. it's the reason why irusk always controls the game. If it's irusk 1, you're giving up 4+ tough, no knockdown and +2 to hit. Along with inhospitable ground, again, there is no reason you can't be in control of the game.

So with respect, combine your poor dice rolls with playing poorly/unfamiliarity with certain pieces (not feating, not knowing about the seneschal). Shrug. Im not buying your 'khador are bad at attrition' attitude.

Could be, just I don't get how single wound infantry is going to hold up better than multi wound guys who can shift it around. Although I'm also not that experienced, so it's likely just still growing pains with it.

If I recall he feated on the bottom of Turn 2, so by the top of Turn 4 (first time I could really act and move as Turn 3 I was affected by his feat and couldn't advance, although I suppose I could have moved Irusk up and eaten the POW14 hit) his guys were already in combat. If I had popped my feat, they would have all been out of my control range as I had Irusk back to avoid being in range of the Covenant to prevent him from casting, or have been in combat already; the Avatar and Paladins were well out of my feat range, and the Bastions I believe were just out or close to being out. So unless I missed something, which is possible, using my feat wouldn't have given me anything at that point.

I'm almost wondering if I should focus on playing pButcher/pVlad/eSorscha a bit more, as I'm more comfortable with those casters (really not sure of how to properly use Irusk), so I think it's detrimental to keep switching up lists, as I should be focusing on mastering what I have, instead of always looking and thinking of new things to get or how to use different lists all the time.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Could be, just I don't get how single wound infantry is going to hold up better than multi wound guys who can shift it around. Although I'm also not that experienced, so it's likely just still growing pains with it.

Having multiple wounds is only a thing until you get proactive on getting rid of it. Especially when axe to face gets involved. Like I pointed out above, the math says those iron fangs are doing 10-11 damage each with battle lust on them. A full squad is 48 wounds. Even shifting it around only gets you so far.

WayneTheGame wrote:

If I recall he feated on the bottom of Turn 2, so by the top of Turn 4 (first time I could really act and move as Turn 3 I was affected by his feat and couldn't advance, although I suppose I could have moved Irusk up and eaten the POW14 hit) his guys were already in combat. If I had popped my feat, they would have all been out of my control range as I had Irusk back to avoid being in range of the Covenant to prevent him from casting, or have been in combat already; the Avatar and Paladins were well out of my feat range, and the Bastions I believe were just out or close to being out. So unless I missed something, which is possible, using my feat wouldn't have given me anything at that point.

I take it you went first? So first turn you should be 19' up the board. 22' for the thing with tactical supremacy. 16-19' for irusk, assuming charge/charge+energiser. (7" deploy, 9'/12' charge/run.) Irusk's got a 14' control range, so that's you clipping things up to 33' onto the board on the bottom of turn 1 with feat. In other words, you're almost into his deployment zone. Assuming his turn is a similar run/charge in order to push up and contest the necessary zones, there's no reason you can't catch his whole army on turn 2. The positioning you mention just seems really, really weird if you couldn't get stuff. It's ok to be a but more aggressive with irusk if it means catching his whole army. Other wise you run ahead with control points. All this time you're screwing with his pieces with all your ranged elements (remove the choir, book etc that he pushed up so far), and with your feat, you stop him getting any positional advantage due to his.

WayneTheGame wrote:

I'm almost wondering if I should focus on playing pButcher/pVlad/eSorscha a bit more, as I'm more comfortable with those casters (really not sure of how to properly use Irusk), so I think it's detrimental to keep switching up lists, as I should be focusing on mastering what I have, instead of always looking and thinking of new things to get or how to use different lists all the time.

Agreed - it's a good idea to focus on a couple of casters and really learn them. Irusk is too good to ignore though.

Deadnight wrote:
Attrition isn't just as simple about being able to receive the charge and survive it.

Attrition is about being able to trade favourably reliably. You outlast the other guy because his stuff dies faster than yours, not because your stuff doesn't die.

Khador isn't strictly speaking bad at attrition (If anyone's bad at attrition is Legion, or possibly Cygnar), but Menoth in general and Harby/Bastions in particular are better at it. When fighting someone who's better at one aspect of the game than you are you don't try and fight them where they're strong, you change the game and go for a different victory condition (in the case of fighting Harby you forget about tabling her or winning on scenario and go straight for the assassination because she's nowhere near as good at countering that as she is at countering you in a straight fight, and Khador is great at assassination)