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 Furyou Miko wrote:
All the shiiiiny new toys they keep getting!

every new codex though brings new toys (except grey knights) now the space Marines gettting a codex with every edition is evidance that GW favors em. but they also sell the most SM stuff, it's a chicken and egg arguement I'd say

I'd be fine with getting rid of ATSKNF altogether. It's not that useful against most lists I play against. My marines get shot dead, not feared.

And, yes, marines are GREATLY nerfed since their apex in 3rd ed. I mean as a whole army, not gravstars and White Scar biker specific lists.

Actual marines are almost as irrelevant now as they were in 2nd. Which is pretty damn irrelevant, as loyalists were unplayable in 2nd if you wanted to have a chance of winning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forgot to add TFC to the list of competitive vanilla SM units.

You forget, when Xenos get something, it's because it's a long time coming, but if Marines get something, it's because they are GW's favorites.

Nevermind that Tau, Eldar and Daemons ruled 6th! Nevermind that Necrons were the kings of 5th and the start of 6th! Space Marines are totally OP!

Don't forget CSM, Nids, and Eldar in 2nd. Oh, the horror of noise marines!

 koooaei wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It would drown the internets with a wave of I'M SELLING STUFF I HATE GW

But then everything does, doesn't it.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

It was partially joking. Any form of nerf to Imperial armies would get so much negative feedback. And what could they do to ATSKNF that isn't a nerf, but makes Fear useful?

Well, what I'm thinking is that, when it comes down to it, nothing really. ATSKNF let the unit in question auto-pass any Ld that has to do with regaining a fleeing unit, which is both fluffy ("Steady, brothers! We cannot let this foul beast round us up - We are Astartes, and we know no fear! Charge!") and good crunchy. Astartes can experience fear in general, but know when to temper it, and when a unit flees in the TT, it doesn't need to be off fear, but of tactical choice or simple desperation.

What I'm trying to get at is that Fear could be a rule like Fantasy - "Any unit charged by [Unit with Fear USR] must make a Ld test - If failed, the unit must flee the battle immideatly. The enemy my do a Sweeping Advance afterwards". This won't nerf units with ATSKNF, as they cannot be swept, and will severely hurt anything else.

That's gona be super harsh for orks and other armies without ATSKNF or fearless. For example, orks only have ld7 against fear for the most part. You need a warboss to buff ld to 9 or a big mek to 8. Even Ghazzy is just ld9 and not fearless. Only 3 things are fearless - Grotsnik that costs a lot, Bully boyz that are 3 squads of 5 fearless meganobz thet require specific lists and BBP that's only accessable from Ghazzy detachment which is generally not used cause it's inferior to the regular one. That's why you don't meet BBP out of Greentide.

And you basically propose that a squad of 30 boyz that costs like 300 pt with a painboss and pk/bp nob will run away from mellee like 45% of the time from basically any daemon unit, MC, IK, half dark eldar HQs the moment they meet in cc? And will have to pass ini3 not to get swept.

Dropping WS to 1 allready matters. Hitting on 5-s instead of 4-s or 3-s and getting hit on 3-s hurts. And LOTS of stuff that's hardy in mellee has fear.

Now i see the problem with fear being too situational. You play against orks? Fear is super useful. You play against SM/CSM/AM with priests? Just a cool word in the unit profile that is doing nothing.

And i see why you want to apply And They Shall Know A Bit Of Fear But Not As Much As Regular Guyz. ATSKABOFBNAMARG. Cause SM and variants are the most popular armies out there atm. Making Fear take effect even less often due to meta.

But how to actually apply it? Maybe just give a ld buff against fear checks? Like +1 to ld against fear with ATSKNF. Will also make items and powers that drop ld relevant for fear checks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

So... on what basis is this sentiment that Marines are the golden-child of Games Workshop and are therefore immune to getting gak on mechanically stemming from?

I don't think anyone is saying that they are some amazing over powered broken codex. But it is just hard to see why an army that is so popular, should ignore so many of the basic rule so the game.

I remember when a friend of mine started playing a couple of years back, and played loyalists. Down the line he picked up some Chaos forces and was shocked when his troops became affected by psychology.

Fear should have an affect. At the moment it's almost entirely pointless. To be honest, a reroll on breaking from combat, but they can be swept, and a reroll to rallying, but they don't get to pretend they never broke like they currently do, would leave me feeling like the psychology rules of the game actually have purpose.

It may nerf the army hard. But it would make the game more consistent.

Agree with this. Turn ATSKNF into a reroll. I mean, if it is a global reroll that you can use even on the “3D6 dices minus Ld” attacks, it would be as much of a boost at it would be a nerf!

I don't remember the last time my Daemons incurred a fear check...

Be sure to rename ATSKNF to ATSBMRTF.

They Are My Space Marines,
And They Shall Be Moderately Resistant to Fear

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

So... on what basis is this sentiment that Marines are the golden-child of Games Workshop and are therefore immune to getting gak on mechanically stemming from?

I don't think anyone is saying that they are some amazing over powered broken codex. But it is just hard to see why an army that is so popular, should ignore so many of the basic rule so the game.

I remember when a friend of mine started playing a couple of years back, and played loyalists. Down the line he picked up some Chaos forces and was shocked when his troops became affected by psychology.

Fear should have an affect. At the moment it's almost entirely pointless. To be honest, a reroll on breaking from combat, but they can be swept, and a reroll to rallying, but they don't get to pretend they never broke like they currently do, would leave me feeling like the psychology rules of the game actually have purpose.

It may nerf the army hard. But it would make the game more consistent.

could it be it;'s popular BECAUSE of stuff like that? keep in kind when GW designs the game the BASELINE is NOT the Marine. for them the baseline are proably guard.

ATSKNF is a joke. Here how rule actually sound:
"Sometimes in close combat one side suffers heavy casualities and overwhelmed. To represent this we have Sweeping Advance rules, but our marines are too precious to be destroyed by unlucky leadership test. They cant play on the level field. Threfore they have their own loophole rule.

Space Marine player would be saddened if his precious marines were gone by running off the table. They are fighting for the Emperor after all! It not like other factions have some great ideals they are willing to die for! To represent this space marines automatically regroup.

Oh, and btw, they are immune to Fear.
Yea, like 1 little sentence at the end.
Why dont make them "Fearless" then? Well, fearsless mean they dont feel fear, but we wanna show them as "courageous" - feel fear but able to overcome it. So it would be better shown by reroll, or bonus, but no - they are immune.
That, and without fearless they can use Our Weapons Are useless rule. Nice loophole, is it not? So you can fail morale test to disengage by risking to be target of Swee... Oh wait, marines cant be Swept!

Also, we "forgot" to include ATSKNF in the Terrify spell at 6e, so they cant be feared even by what fear fearless. Could not say we forgot it again at 7e so we just ruined the spell instead."

What a joke. I dont even know how you can make a rule more sucked from a sore thumb. Reasons says it should be something like reroll, or roll 3 choose 2 lowest, but then fanboys would cry, so i just say make it so it is treated as fearless for the purpose of other rulse that mention fearless.
And return proper terrify.

Sounds like i hate marines, but i hate inconsistency and freaking patches that stick out of the game rules and have no base even on fluff (unless you have tunnel vision and see only marine fluff).
And eldar "better" force weapons are not force weapons.
And giant tau robot is "monstrous creature".
What a joke...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Be sure to rename ATSKNF to ATSBMRTF.

They Are My Space Marines,
And They Shall Be Moderately Resistant to Fear

Since when should rules be based on the exact wording of in-universe propaganda? Besides, if you take that at face value, marines should have Fearless.

In theory I'm fine with ATSKNF's main role of preventing sweeps, but in practice it's too much of a massive patch on the game as DarkPhoenix said. It's pretty lame when one of the most.commonly seen factions flat out ignores the very few morale effects there are in the game (and their evil cousins for some reason don't, they don't even get halfway there).

Better to make ATSKNF a chance to rally at the end of a fallback move. Then I like the idea of making Fear a -2 to Ld for any tests caused by units or weapons with Fear (so if a unit with Fear beats you in close combat, you are more likely to break, if a ranged weapon with Fear causes casualties, you're more likely to break, etc). And ATSKNF reduces that to a -1 instead.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
ATSKNF is a joke. Here how rule actually sound:
"Sometimes in close combat one side suffers heavy casualities and overhelmed. To represent this we have Sweeping Advance rules, but our marines are too precious to be destroyed by unlucky leadership test. They cant play an the level field. Threfore they have their own loophole rule.

Space Marine player would be saddened if his precious marines were gone by running off the table. They are fighting for the Emperor after all! It not like other factions have some great ideals they are willing to die for! To represent this space marines automatically regroup.

Oh, and btw, they are immune to Fear.
Yea, like 1 little sentence at the end.
Why dont make them "Fearless" then? Well, fearsless mean they dont feel fear, but we wanna show them as "courageous" - feel fear but able to overcome it. So it would be better shown by reroll, or bonus, but no - they are immune.
That, and without fearless they can use Our Weapons Are useless rule. Nice loophole, is it not? So you can fail morale test to disengage by risking to be target of Swee... Oh wait, marines cant be Swept!

Also, we "forgot" to include ATSKNF in the Terrify spell at 6e, so they cant be feared even by what fear fearless. Could not say we forgot it again at 7e so we just ruined the spell instead."

What a joke. I dont even know how you can make a rule more sucked from a sore thumb. Reasons says it should be something like reroll, or roll 3 choose 2 lowest, but then fanboys would cry, so i just say make it so it is treated as fearless for the purpose of other rulse that mention fearless.
And return proper terrify.

Sounds like i hate marines, but i hate inconsistency and freaking patches that stick out of the game rules and have no base even on fluff (unless you have tunnel vision and see only marine fluff).
And eldar "better" force weapons are not force weapons.
And giant tau robot is "monstrous creature".
What a joke...

And yet, ATSKNF is still garbage in practice. Marines are gunned down wholesale by superior Xeno firepower in 7th. Morale is irrelevant in the face of being tabled. Marines are good because of gladius and invis grav cents. Nothing to do with base marines at all. If base marines were good, BA wouldn't be the worst codex in the game. ATSKNF is essentially useless.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
ATSKNF is a joke. Here how rule actually sound:[…]
What a joke...

This was a new post in a one year old topic…

Necromancy always was my favorite!

Thread passed its Reanimation Protocols.

It seems like this thread isn't dead yet!

I really, really don't see why Space Marine doesn't just get Stubborn. I think that exemplifies exactly what Marines are about; selfless determination and the willingness to sacrifice themselves in battle. Add some defense against Fear and you're golden.

ATSKNF: Gives the Stubborn and Immune to Fear USR.
Done!

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I really, really don't see why Space Marine doesn't just get Stubborn. I think that exemplifies exactly what Marines are about; selfless determination and the willingness to sacrifice themselves in battle. Add some defense against Fear and you're golden.

Because then SMs would actually be able to fail Fear tests, run away, get cut down in combat etc. Can't be having that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
ATSKNF: Gives the Stubborn and Immune to Fear USR.
Done!

Can we just remove Fear? It's such a fething useless rule.

 vipoid wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I really, really don't see why Space Marine doesn't just get Stubborn. I think that exemplifies exactly what Marines are about; selfless determination and the willingness to sacrifice themselves in battle. Add some defense against Fear and you're golden.

Because then SMs would actually be able to fail Fear tests, run away, get cut down in combat etc. Can't be having that.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
ATSKNF: Gives the Stubborn and Immune to Fear USR.
Done!

Can we just remove Fear? It's such a fething useless rule.

I still wouldn't remove it if we could help it - I think it makes so much sense. It's the current understanding of the rule that makes it useless, I feel. I'd make it a flat "-1 to enemy Combat Resolution", representing how freaking horrible some of these things are, and how unsettling they can be to fight. I wouldn then give Marines the ability to roll for it applying at the start of a combat; they already have Ld 8, that should be enough.

Sorry, but Fear should really be doing something more impressive than -1 to enemy combat resolution. Otherwise, it's still not worth including as a rule.

What about “Fear: Enemies must take a Ld test when trying to charge you. If they fail, they do not change. Enemies must take a Ld test when being charged. If they fail the test, they cannot shoot Overwatch (Hello, tau ), and are WS1 for the round”.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about “Fear: Enemies must take a Ld test when trying to charge you. If they fail, they do not change. Enemies must take a Ld test when being charged. If they fail the test, they cannot shoot Overwatch (Hello, tau ), and are WS1 for the round”.

That's interesting.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about “Fear: Enemies must take a Ld test when trying to charge you. If they fail, they do not change. Enemies must take a Ld test when being charged. If they fail the test, they cannot shoot Overwatch (Hello, tau ), and are WS1 for the round”.

I really like that one.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about “Fear: Enemies must take a Ld test when trying to charge you. If they fail, they do not change. Enemies must take a Ld test when being charged. If they fail the test, they cannot shoot Overwatch (Hello, tau ), and are WS1 for the round”.

I'm not entirely against that one. It plays on you not knowing wether or not your units will act as you expect them to, which I like.

I'd be happy with that if Marines lost their immunity to Fear.

Fear really should make it really difficult to shoot at a charging foe. I agree with the idea that Fear should force a Leadership check when firing Overwatch. That would not only be thematically appropriate, but also a ton better than it's current state.

 vipoid wrote:
I'd be happy with that if Marines lost their immunity to Fear.

Yeah - Suddenly Fear isn't "OH GAK THEY'RE SCAAAAREH" but more of a "Geez Brother, that metalic xeno is draped in skin and guts... Maybe we should carefully assess the situation. For the Emperor, of course.".

just for context, are we complaining about the fluff or the crunch of Atsknf?

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
It would never happen, because they would lose sales on Space Marine models. Can't have that.

How so? We aren't talking losing anything, rather have it change. Besides, it's not like ATSKNF is what sell Marines.

I have a friend who would kill to have ATSKNF on his Tau

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.