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2015/01/31 19:51:01
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
You can never beat your first time. The second generation is shinier, stronger, faster and superior in every regard save one, and it's an unfair criticism to level, but it simply can't be as original. - Andy Chambers, on the evolution of Games Workshop games
2015/01/31 20:39:13
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
2015/01/31 22:21:26
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
Sorry, that's not correct. By using Kickstarter, you are agreeing to the Project Owner's terms and conditions, not just Kickstarter's T&C. That varies project to project, but in the case of the Dust project, it's clear that you are entering into a contract where you are paying to receive product (pre-ordering). The project owner, in this case listed as John Matthews, is bound to the agreement of the project that he set up between him and the backers. So hand-waving and saying "you're get what you paid for, because this is a Kickstarter, they owe you nothing" is incorrect.
In terms of legal recourse, it gets thorny of course. First it's not totally clear who you are entering into a contract with - John Matthews is listed, but so is Dust Studios. Secondly, this is across country lines, making it a lot more difficult. Thirdly, the amount any individual backer has paid is peanuts to launching a lawsuit. So even though a backer legally should get what they paid for, or their money back, realistically would find it difficult and not worth it to do so.
No, Kickstarter isn't at fault, and suing them for a particular project won't get you anywhere. However, Kickstarter does have legal responsibility to not become a haven for scammers and must legally take steps to protect backers. If too many "failed" projects turn up, Kickstarter will legally be in hot water.
2015/01/31 23:32:08
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
I am a bit suprised at this coming from Battlefront, but then again BF is the same company that makes you pay upfront for product and then takes anywhere from 3-6 months to deliver said new product.
Both house subscriptions were delayed time and time again, poor quality product was sent out and then there were months of delays on getting replacements.
Every sale they have blows up in their face because they do not know how to run their company, hell half of their online store is on back order for months if not years. Forget buying any of their terrain they show on their web store, it has been out of print for years.
2015/01/31 23:43:18
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
On the one hand, when it comes to business vs. business matters, my suspicions always lie on the company that takes a dispute public first. Usually such relationships are governed by contracts and breaching that is a legal matter. Every attorney I know of says "never discuss legal matters openly" and with good reason; it's not just unprofessional it gives the other side ammunition against you. Thus it seems that trying to portray one's company as being "the good guys" is more an attempt to curry public favor to force an agreement that they're not entitled to or to gloss over some breach of contract they know they're guilty of because the public (i.e. - customers) have no idea what's going on behind the scenes but wield the economic power of being the people who buy things; influence plus ignorance makes them excellent patsies. If you know you're not going to win on a contract law basis, why not employ that tactic? Generally in my limited experience that's how things seem to go down, for instance Tony Reidy and Wargames Factory; Tony fired the first public salvos and I think we can now safely say which side was closer to the truth on that one.
On the other hand, it is BattleFront and it is, at its core, a logistical issue which you can find a litany of failures by the company. Nothing seems particularly out of the ordinary for one of their operations, so it's entirely likely that they've done something bone-headed and are trying to sort it out frantically. With an unreliable partner, the action of trying to collect information on what needs to be manufactured seems more in favor of Dust Studios, but it's hard to say that completely exonerates them. It could really go either way based on the information I've been able to uncover, but I'm not particularly well-connected either.
While not a KS backer, as someone with a continuing interest in FoW I would like to know if BF has done something illegitimate as obviously that influences my purchasing habits. Hopefully more concrete information will be forthcoming so we can tell which end is up.
2015/02/01 01:19:55
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
weeble1000 wrote: Backers are literally getting what they paid for, which isn't a finished product with guaranteed delivery.
All products aside from a few stretch goal items were already produced. The Kickstarter was set at a $50,000 goal for expedited distribution. Literally we were paying to get the models all at once rather than being released in waves. Models have been, and were, finished for about a year. We have solely been waiting on Battlefront to figure of how to run a pledge manager, fail at that, ship a few things out randomly and then go silent for nearly 3 months.
So saying this is a standard Kickstarter where you aren't guaranteed to get the items they are producing, shows you quite literally have no idea what was being funded. I know people are quick to write this off, as a "Caveat Emptor of Kickstarters" but that really is not the case here. We were never funding production of a product. This is also why Dust Studios has asked backers to email them directly with their invoices, in an attempt to get us the product. Battlefront has taken the money and run in seems.
By using Kickstarter, you agreed to abide by the terms and conditions, which specify that you are not buying a finished product and that there are no guarantees.
Maybe your state's AG would be interested in bringing a fraud case against Kickstarter on the basis that the project itself violated Kickstarter's terms and conditions. But backers don't really have any recourse.
Sorry, that's not correct. By using Kickstarter, you are agreeing to the Project Owner's terms and conditions, not just Kickstarter's T&C. That varies project to project, but in the case of the Dust project, it's clear that you are entering into a contract where you are paying to receive product (pre-ordering). The project owner, in this case listed as John Matthews, is bound to the agreement of the project that he set up between him and the backers. So hand-waving and saying "you're get what you paid for, because this is a Kickstarter, they owe you nothing" is incorrect.
In terms of legal recourse, it gets thorny of course. First it's not totally clear who you are entering into a contract with - John Matthews is listed, but so is Dust Studios. Secondly, this is across country lines, making it a lot more difficult. Thirdly, the amount any individual backer has paid is peanuts to launching a lawsuit. So even though a backer legally should get what they paid for, or their money back, realistically would find it difficult and not worth it to do so.
No, Kickstarter isn't at fault, and suing them for a particular project won't get you anywhere. However, Kickstarter does have legal responsibility to not become a haven for scammers and must legally take steps to protect backers. If too many "failed" projects turn up, Kickstarter will legally be in hot water.
That's exactly the point. There's no practical recourse. The contract, such as it is, is muddled at best. You can argue till you are blue in the face that the contract terms that both backer and project creator agree to when using Kickstarter is modified by what the project creator says during the campaign, but that aint getting you very far.
The best recourse you've got there is that the Kickstarter contract now specifies that material misrepresentation on the part of the project creator constitutes breach.
But from a 10,000' perspective, because this is a KS project, and only because this is a KS project, your rights as a consumer are horrendously tainted. If Battlefront had done a pre-order through its website, you would have relatively unambiguous recourse.
That's the point. You get what you pay for with Kickstarter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 01:20:27
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
2015/02/01 02:00:00
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
But from a 10,000' perspective, because this is a KS project, and only because this is a KS project, your rights as a consumer are horrendously tainted. If Battlefront had done a pre-order through its website, you would have relatively unambiguous recourse.
That's the point. You get what you pay for with Kickstarter.
And what recourse would you have as a consumer if you had done a pre-order through Battlefront's website? It would be the same. Again, legally you would be due, but if they took your money and kept it you could do very little unless you wanted to spend 100x what was owed in legal fees and travel costs.
A webstore, just like a kickstarter project is essentially a social contract. There are laws that regulate these to help protect consumers, but in order to uphold them the consumer has to act on them. If Battlefront was a US business, in either case, you could work through small claims court or the Attorney General of the state they resided in, but since they're international it would make things a lot harder.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 02:09:21
2015/02/01 16:58:03
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
It looks like they do have a business branch based in the USA.
from:http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=88
Battlefront Miniatures North America
500 Principio Parkway West
Suite 100
North East, Maryland 21901
So if/when it comes to it backers can work through the state of Maryland. The interesting thing is that looking through the online secretary of state records, I don't see them as a listed business entity. I don't know specifics on Maryland law or how up to date their records are, but I sure would hope Battlefront is registered with the state or else they may have a lot more to worry about than just this Kickstarter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 16:59:58
2015/02/01 20:07:51
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
And what recourse would you have as a consumer if you had done a pre-order through Battlefront's website? It would be the same. Again, legally you would be due, but if they took your money and kept it you could do very little unless you wanted to spend 100x what was owed in legal fees and travel costs.
A webstore, just like a kickstarter project is essentially a social contract. There are laws that regulate these to help protect consumers, but in order to uphold them the consumer has to act on them. If Battlefront was a US business, in either case, you could work through small claims court or the Attorney General of the state they resided in, but since they're international it would make things a lot harder.
VISA Chargeback or PayPal dispute. I've done both with various merchants that needed it. Didn't need a lawyer at all. You see, very, very large and powerful companies like VISA and PayPal like it when we spend our money using their systems. They want to encourage us consumers to spend. If it was unprotected pot luck when making a purchase, then people would not make such purchases in anywhere near the numbers that we do. They make it as safe as possible so that we spend as much as possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 20:10:23
carboncopy wrote: It looks like they do have a business branch based in the USA.
from:http://www.flamesofwar.com/?tabid=88
Battlefront Miniatures North America
500 Principio Parkway West
Suite 100
North East, Maryland 21901
So if/when it comes to it backers can work through the state of Maryland. The interesting thing is that looking through the online secretary of state records, I don't see them as a listed business entity. I don't know specifics on Maryland law or how up to date their records are, but I sure would hope Battlefront is registered with the state or else they may have a lot more to worry about than just this Kickstarter.
BF just moved to Maryland in the last year or so. They used to be located in Delaware. They may still be registered as a Delaware business.
2015/02/02 01:11:02
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
More than DUST settles on Operation:Babylon - Paolo gives an exclusive interview on the Kickstarter
For many Dust Tactics, World of Dust & Dust Studios will be household names coming as they do from a long established game world all spun from the mind of Paolo Parente, the father of Dust.
And as such you may have also heard there are a few rumblings about the Battlefront Kickstarter Operation: Babylon, and its lack of appearing, via the post, in the houses of those who backed the Kickstarter campaign.
This is n interview with DUST creator, Paolo Parente
Dust is an alternate history Board Game/Wargame and soon to be online game and RPG which for many years has been inspiring modellers and gamers with its diverse and almost familiar walking tanks, nazi zombies, cyborg gorillas and a host of other WWII alternate nasties fuelled and inspired form the power of the mineral VK and the remnants of a crashed alien ship.
It's the same World War Two, it just evolved and shows no sign of ending.
In its most recent form Dust IP came into the care of Battlefront Games, high hopes of expanded lines and better distribution. The future looked very bright indeed, so much so when the Kickstarter was announced the boards literally 'lit up' with the voice and enthusiasm of the legions of old and new fans.
Operation Babylon, as it was called, was going to be a glowing success.
On June 19 2014 that success was confirmed for the 1,475 backers who are pledged $469,313 of hard earned cash well over the $50,000 target sought for the project.
Since then the talk and enthusiasm in all the forums and chat groups has slowly slipped from ecstatic excitement to near civil war as the fan base slowly fractures in the face of more and more apparently unanswered questions from Battlefront, the pledge management team who over saw the financials of the project.
Currently the casual viewer will see 'the silent concerned' who say little but are clicking like on various posts.
The 'be calm its okay, stay positives' who are focused on getting on with the game and prepared for the long wait without getting to distressed.
Finally what I'd call the 'vocals' who range from reasonable questioning to the troll like stirring one expects among any large Internet based groups. Arguments, confusion, allegations of all sorts seem to fly daily now and can't be ignored any longer.
Then on the 30th January 2015, the Grand Master, Paolo himself, who till now has been a voice of reason and support throws his cap in the ring and declares enough is enough.
Paolo today posts banners and avatars that call out for questions to be answered, he says he demands clarity and transparency form Battlefront, and importantly asks......where's the money?
So it is on this very public canvas that Wee Gamers felt it was only right to ask the questions to the only people who should know. that is the very publicly active father of Dust, Paolo, and the current Guardians of the Franchise, Battlefront Games.
Tonight we hear from Paolo, who has been quite open and eager to talk.
Paolo first of all thanks for taking the time at this seemingly stressful period to talk to Wee Gamers.
Let's get the ball rolling.
Paolo , what on earth is going on with Dust, and the Kickstarter? Where do things currently stand? Our understanding of these projects is you pitch your project, you set your goal. You raise your money - succeed or fail , and if you succeed you make your toys and deliver to your backers? What's gone wrong as you understand it?
Paolo:
"The public action that Dust Studio, with me as standard bearer, is taking has one goal only: push Battlefront to act with due diligence by honouring the Babylon Kickstarter Contract that they wrote themselves, pay the overdue fee to Dust Studio for manufacturing the goods and deliver them to the backers.
l attach here the contract and you are authorized to publish it.
Basically it reads that Battlefront is obliged to pay Dust Studio first. And in the case Dust Studio cannot manufacture the goods then Dust Studio is accountable.
Now, how the hell are we supposed to deliver something that has not been ordered or paid for???
Up to today we have not received the P.O. for the so called "Babylon Wave 2" or a full list of the items to be delivered. Dust Studio will be happy to deliver the goods as soon as Purchase Order is issued and paid for.
The production on the Wave 2 items is going on. We estimate that they will be ready by the end of March 2015.
We are manufacturing items based on the last received information dated November 2014 plus a small percentage extra, just in case the orders get bigger.
We know that Battlefront have been collecting orders and payments until January 2015.
We wait for Battlefront to honor their side of the deal."
Well, there you go. Paolo's side.
We have sent an email to Battlefront to see if they wish to give their side of the story.
The public action that Dust Studio, with me (Paolo Parente) as standard bearer, is taking has one goal only: push Battlefront to act with due diligence by honouring the Babylon Kickstarter Contract that they wrote themselves, pay the overdue fee to Dust Studio for manufacturing the goods and deliver them to the backers.
l attach here the contract and you are authorized to publish it.
Basically it reads that Battlefront is obliged to pay Dust Studio first. And in the case Dust Studio cannot manufacture the goods then Dust Studio is accountable.
Now, how the hell are we supposed to deliver something that has not been ordered or paid for???
Up to today we have not received the P.O. for the so called "Babylon Wave 2" or a full list of the items to be delivered. Dust Studio will be happy to deliver the goods as soon as Purchase Order is issued and paid for.
The production on the Wave 2 items is going on. We estimate that they will be ready by the end of March 2015.
We are manufacturing items based on the last received information dated November 2014 plus a small percentage extra, just in case the orders get bigger.
We know that Battlefront have been collecting orders and payments until January 2015.
We wait for Battlefront to honor their side of the deal
Some of you are aware of the recent allegations playing out on Facebook, and are eager for an official statement from Battlefront clarifying our position. For those of you who weren't aware of the unpleasantness, we apologise for having to bring it to your attention now.
The rumours and speculation on social media regarding the current state of the Dust Operation Babylon Kickstarter are becoming out of control. We would prefer to keep ugly disagreements out of the public eye, but we cannot remain silent any longer without giving the impression that we are hiding something. However, we will not be engaging in a trial by social media. Facebook is not the place to professionally resolve issues. Especially not when we are still optimistic that the situation can still easily be salvaged through negotiation in good faith.
There are two sides to every story, and a significant dispute remains regarding the parties’ obligations. Battlefront has repeatedly sought professional mediation with Dust Studio as a way to resolve this dispute fairly, which is the usual way to resolve contractual disagreements like this. We are still actively pursuing this.
We still expect a satisfactory outcome, but it will come a lot sooner if Dust Studio stop trying to manipulate backers through social media, with a lot of inaccurate and incomplete statements, and instead sit down and resolve their problems in a professional manner. If you really do stand with Dust Studio, the best thing you can do is to encourage them to agree to neutral professional mediation.
I'm sure it is hard for Dust Studios to remain "professional" like Battlefront when the former has to shoulder all the costs of production and the latter has all the money collected. Also, this game is just (according to BF) just a drop in the bucket for them whereas it is the bread and butter of DS.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2015/02/02 01:50:19
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Sign up to demand an answer. Battlefront is in breach of the Kickstarter terms and conditions by not telling backers why their pledges are not being honored.
Looks to me like BF is trying to renegotiate the terms of the contract and Dust is only interested in maintaining the original contract, as they should. I think Dust is being much more upfront in order to save their reputation. Who knows but either way this makes it very hard for people to trust kickstarters.
I do what the voices in my wifes head say...
2015/02/02 02:01:14
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
The BF statement is very "incensed guilty party" to me.
Reads like something Defiance would have posted.
Asking backers to pressure Dust Studios to re-negotiate terms (which is pretty clearly what they are going for here) is pretty crazy.
The timing ties in to the drop in oil prices, I'm wondering if BF ownership are having some issues. Someone earlier mentioned they are Russian, is that true?
2015/02/02 02:38:24
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
I am a little surprised to discover this situation. The Dust Babylon KS was the first KS I backed and did so only after looking into Dust Studios background, history, and principal individuals involved (I was already aware of Battlefront's history and past products). Satisfied that this KS had a better than usual chance of success I backed it to the tune of $1050.
As things developed there were the fairly common issues with getting the pledge manager up and running but I was satisfied with regular updates that had been distributed through KS and when the pledge manager was finally ready I increased my order. I had come to realize there were items I wanted beyond what I had pledged for and a friend who had been following the Dust Babylon KS but didn't have funds at the time asked if he could add an Army Bundle to my order. At this point my pledge and shipping came to just under $1400.
Again there were regular updates through KS. As seems to be the norm with projects that greatly exceed their intial goal the production delays followed and the updates about when to expect things were clear, confident, and business like and as promised in updates the first portion of my order that should have shipped in Sept-Oct arrived on my door step in Canada in mid-Dec as promised in an update. At which point I got a pleasant surprise, I had been expecting that even with shipping out of a US address to Canada that I would have to pay import duties on my products (I was expecting $500-$600). Battlefront appears to have their distribution organised in such a manner that this is not the case. The only issue I had was there wasn't any indication of what my intial pledge order had been but just a shipping document that indicated which products were in my shipment and which were back ordered.
So I dug around and found that I had actually kept a copy of my pledge manager pages as a document on my computer and it matched the shipping document sent with my first order. As I didn't have any major concerns about my pledge I had let looking for my copy of the pledge order until after Christmas and as I had come to expect regular updates didn't give me any cause for concern. Two days after I found my copy of what I ordered I received an email that confirmed my order and which products had been backordered. The next week I received an email confirming the shipment of the second part of my order from UPS. It is scheduled to arrive Tuesday February 3. From everything I can see the shipment is an appropriate size for what I have yet to receive (2 largish boxes with an appropriate weight) and so I am still not concerned.
I don't doubt that there is some kind of contractual dispute brewing between Dust Studios and Battlefront. I only became aware of it through the update sent to all Backers of the project, and it took some digging to find this thread about it. From where I stand it looks like Dust Studios is trying to muster public support without providing really clear details in an official statement but by leaking rumours which then get twisted and speculated upon.
I'm still not concerned, as far as I can tell Battlefront has been nothing but profesional and business like in its actions and communications with me (the one small misstep being an over looked document with my first shipment). I'll know for sure on Tuesday when the rest of my order arrives (or not).
I certainly am not going to advise anyone to start talking about the sky falling at this point.
As always though YMMV
Rockhaven
Edit for spelling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 02:44:09
2015/02/02 02:38:38
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Battlefront's statement reads very much like "We're too mature to get into this, but its all the other guys fault"
Soon his foes would learn that the only thing more dangerous than a savage three hundred pound brute is a savage three hundred pound brute with a plan - Ork Codex
I've recently started taking on commissions, if you'd like to talk a project over feel free to PM me here, or find me at:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BasiliskStudios Email: Basilisk.Studios@yahoo.co.uk
2015/02/02 02:47:27
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
plastictrees wrote: The timing ties in to the drop in oil prices, I'm wondering if BF ownership are having some issues. Someone earlier mentioned they are Russian, is that true?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/02/02 02:55:18
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
As I said before, this has all the hallmarks of a basic contract dispute.
I think it is important to note that the document published by Parente is obviously not the whole contract.
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 03:00:23
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
2015/02/02 03:24:38
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
plastictrees wrote: The BF statement is very "incensed guilty party" to me.
Reads like something Defiance would have posted.
Actually, I was thinking the same thing of what Dust Studios has done thus far. You have Paolo out there agitating the public to rally around them, the put-upon little guy because the big bad business is holding all their money and not telling them anything. Except, you know, the very likely calls to enter mediation over a contract dispute. As weeble said, I'm highly skeptical that less than 3 pages is the full contract, which taken with omitting there was a dispute over said contract further makes what DS is doing seem quite disingenuous. There's quite a few details "creatively presented" in a manner that is not lying, but is very likely engineered to draw people onto their side where the full truth might not. Still a lot of unknowns in this fiasco, but offering up a massaged version of details puts me much more in mind of Tony Reidy's brand of communication. The big bad Chinese man was stealing his company...that he owed fantastical sums of money to and that he failed to live up to his agreements with. Details, they matter.
So on the one side you have a group that's trying to develop a cult of personality and foment public outcry, on the other side you have Battlefront. Really not sure who the bad actor is here, because any company that can't run a webstore today with stock integration is pretty suspect in terms of competence, and I've yet to see them accomplish anything in a timely fashion. Likely it's a bit of both.
2015/02/02 03:39:18
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Rockhaven wrote:I am a little surprised to discover this situation. The Dust Babylon KS was the first KS I backed and did so only after looking into Dust Studios background, history, and principal individuals involved (I was already aware of Battlefront's history and past products). Satisfied that this KS had a better than usual chance of success I backed it to the tune of $1050.
As things developed there were the fairly common issues with getting the pledge manager up and running but I was satisfied with regular updates that had been distributed through KS and when the pledge manager was finally ready I increased my order. I had come to realize there were items I wanted beyond what I had pledged for and a friend who had been following the Dust Babylon KS but didn't have funds at the time asked if he could add an Army Bundle to my order. At this point my pledge and shipping came to just under $1400.
Again there were regular updates through KS. As seems to be the norm with projects that greatly exceed their intial goal the production delays followed and the updates about when to expect things were clear, confident, and business like and as promised in updates the first portion of my order that should have shipped in Sept-Oct arrived on my door step in Canada in mid-Dec as promised in an update. At which point I got a pleasant surprise, I had been expecting that even with shipping out of a US address to Canada that I would have to pay import duties on my products (I was expecting $500-$600). Battlefront appears to have their distribution organised in such a manner that this is not the case. The only issue I had was there wasn't any indication of what my intial pledge order had been but just a shipping document that indicated which products were in my shipment and which were back ordered.
So I dug around and found that I had actually kept a copy of my pledge manager pages as a document on my computer and it matched the shipping document sent with my first order. As I didn't have any major concerns about my pledge I had let looking for my copy of the pledge order until after Christmas and as I had come to expect regular updates didn't give me any cause for concern. Two days after I found my copy of what I ordered I received an email that confirmed my order and which products had been backordered. The next week I received an email confirming the shipment of the second part of my order from UPS. It is scheduled to arrive Tuesday February 3. From everything I can see the shipment is an appropriate size for what I have yet to receive (2 largish boxes with an appropriate weight) and so I am still not concerned.
I don't doubt that there is some kind of contractual dispute brewing between Dust Studios and Battlefront. I only became aware of it through the update sent to all Backers of the project, and it took some digging to find this thread about it. From where I stand it looks like Dust Studios is trying to muster public support without providing really clear details in an official statement but by leaking rumours which then get twisted and speculated upon.
I'm still not concerned, as far as I can tell Battlefront has been nothing but profesional and business like in its actions and communications with me (the one small misstep being an over looked document with my first shipment). I'll know for sure on Tuesday when the rest of my order arrives (or not).
I certainly am not going to advise anyone to start talking about the sky falling at this point.
As always though YMMV
Rockhaven
Edit for spelling.
So your first and only post on this forum is to write a lengthy defense of Battlefront? Seems legit -_-
weeble1000 wrote:
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
I'm not part of the KS but Dust does have photos of its production of wave 2. I'm not sure what valid reason there could be for not giving Dust Studios the invoice quantity for wave 2
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2015/02/02 09:56:17
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Fishboy wrote: Who knows but either way this makes it very hard for people to trust kickstarters.
No it doesn't.
Really?
Because I'd imagine a lot of people are looking at this right now and wondering if they can trust kickstarters anymore (if they did to begin with)
When you have issues even with supposedly well established companies that have a good reputation, that can really hurt the image of something, like gaming kickstarters.
I know I'm a lot less likely to kickstart gaming related pages after the two I backed ended up hitting significant delays. I'm sure there are backers who are part of this who probably won't kickstart another event thanks to what's going on right now as well. On top of that, you probably have people who weren't even involved looking at it thinking "huh, well if this can happen to a kickstarter that looks this safe, what would it be like kickstarting true startups?"
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2015/02/02 13:36:21
Subject: Re:Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
weeble1000 wrote:
What is probably going on is something akin to this hypothetical scenario:
Battlefront has withheld all or part of the payment on some contractual basis, i.e. within Battlefront's interpretation of the facts and the contract terms the company believes it has the right/duty/obligation to withhold payment of some kind. Dust Studio believes otherwise and feels that withholding of payment is a violation of the contract terms. Dust has done work and feels it is owed payment. Battlefront has received less than it had expected from Dust and is unwilling to pay until those concerns are addressed/redressed.
Stuff like this happens all of the time, and frankly neutral arbitration is often a productive method of resolving disputes like this. I would not be surprised if the contract itself included dispute resolution procedures.
In any case, there is quite clearly a dispute. It seems pretty clear that the dispute primarily concerns some form of payment for goods/services. Disputes like this happen all of the time.
That said, the way this seems to be going at the moment is a great way to make sure that the dispute will drag out over several years of contentious litigation. There could be a bad actor here, and that bad actor could be either Battlefront or Dust. It is more likely that fault of some kind or another can be laid at the feet of both Battlefront and Dust. If there is a bad actor, that is, if for example Dust screwed the pooch in production or Battlefront is engineering an excuse to void the contract and keep the KS money, it is extremely hard to judge that from the information available in this thread.
I'm not part of the KS but Dust does have photos of its production of wave 2. I'm not sure what valid reason there could be for not giving Dust Studios the invoice quantity for wave 2
Frankly, the likelihood that Battlefront has a reasonable basis for doing so (assuming it is true) is much higher than the likelihood that the company withheld payment for no good reason. That's a great way to get into trouble.
Now, withholding payment on a contract is darn common. A purchaser usually lots of ways to withhold payment.
For example, under the Uniform Commercial Code in the US (which would not apply here, but it is an example) a purchaser is not required to remit payment for any goods that are not up to spec. This can be as simple as an aesthetic issue. The examples used typically involve hypothetical 'widgets', e.g. if I place an order for 10,000 Blue Widgets and you deliver 10,000 Red Widgets, those goods are not up to spec and I do not pay for them. Now, under the UCC, the manufacturer has several rights to remediation. In other words, the manufacturer can send me the Blue Widgets within a certain time frame, and I have to buy them at the agreed upon price, as opposed to going and buying Blue Widgets from someone else, especially if the market price for Blue Widgets has suddenly changed.
However, if the delay has caused harm to my business, such as, I don't know, not delivering my Blue Widget Kickstarter project on time, I might attach a monetary value to that harm which the manufacturer is potentially responsible for causing. The manufacturer might dispute my valuation, or dispute that any harm was caused, or dispute that the manufacturer was the sole responsible party for the harm. In the midst of this dispute, I would certainly not pay the manufacturer anything because there is an ongoing dispute about the payment.
In short, there's probably lots of he said, she said, your fault, no your fault going on here. That's pretty typical of a contract dispute, and this is what it smells like.
Ask yourself though, what reason would Battlefront have to deliberately queer the contract? Is Battlefront looking to manufacture cheaper somewhere else? If so, where? Is Battlefront planning to scuttle the Kickstarter and not complete fulfillment? Why would it do that? As I sit here this morning, I don't see a good reason to explain why Battlefront might be motivated to deliberately and unfairly extricate itself from the contract. That happens for sure. I've worked plenty of contract cases where that was going on, but I don't see it here from what we know about the situation.
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2015/02/02 13:59:26
Subject: Dust Tactics Legal action from Dust studios against Battlefront?
Definitely a contract dispute...but the question does remain why?
What advantage would Dust have in souring their relationship with their new distributor?
What advantage would Battlefront have versus Dust?
The balance of power in the business relationship is clearly with Battlefront. If they loose Dust - they are really no worse off than they were a year ago. If Dust were to loose Battlefront - it could be lethal to them.
The contract itself is pretty simple and straight forward (love one page contracts...). Might just be that is early in the morning - but I am left wondering what the W9.1, W9.2 and W9.3 are... In any case, after the costs actually started to roll in...based off from cursory analysis of the KS, backer levels and money received - it would appear that there isn't much profit left for the 4th disbursement of funds to go to BF.
They may have wanted to renegotiate so that they are not doing the distribution for free (or possibly even loosing a bit of money on it). Dust didn't feel the same urgency to renegotiate...so BF decides to add a bit of pressure by holding the funds, expecting a quick resolution from BF.
I could be misreading things - but given the information available - it smells about right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weeble1000 wrote: I think it is important to note that the document published by Parente is obviously not the whole contract.
Possibly, I know I have seen one page contracts - I liked to keep mine to a minimum (granted, they came with a full on glossary of terms and definitions...). The core of it does appear to be there without any significant omissions regarding scope, parties and signatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 14:03:05
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