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 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
25 pdrs have smoke. I don't believe the 7th has any other options for a smoke barrage.

The only other option is getting the two Cromwell CS tanks in the HQ platoon.

True, but doing that ties up the 2iC.

Tanks have no firepower to dig out infantry unless breakthrough gun or bunker buster (1+ or 2+ firepower and ignore infantry save).
Do the math: to hit 5+, that means 1/3, 3+ save that's other 1/3, firepower 3+ that's 2/3, so 2 out of 27 shots can remove a single inf. team with the gun.
You have MGs too but they have a firepower of 6 so 1/3, 1/3, 1/6 means 54 shots.
So with a whole tank platoon you can take out about 1 inf. team per turn.

Artillery bombardment is also quite ineffective because the 3+ save.

Against dug in inf. you need:
- some transport for your infantry to move them to assault
- tank assault (shurzen or improvised armor if they have lot of panzerfausts/bazookas)
- Big Guns, direct fire artillery like the M7, no save and 2+ firepower, one shot one team down

Lathor wrote:
Tanks have no firepower to dig out infantry unless breakthrough gun or bunker buster (1+ or 2+ firepower and ignore infantry save).
Do the math: to hit 5+, that means 1/3, 3+ save that's other 1/3, firepower 3+ that's 2/3, so 2 out of 27 shots can remove a single inf. team with the gun.
You have MGs too but they have a firepower of 6 so 1/3, 1/3, 1/6 means 54 shots.
So with a whole tank platoon you can take out about 1 inf. team per turn.

Artillery bombardment is also quite ineffective because the 3+ save.

Against dug in inf. you need:
- some transport for your infantry to move them to assault
- tank assault (shurzen or improvised armor if they have lot of panzerfausts/bazookas)
- Big Guns, direct fire artillery like the M7, no save and 2+ firepower, one shot one team down

This is why I was considering the Breaching Group. The Petard Mortars on the AVsRE are good for digging out infantry, although their range is a severe disadvantage.

My intention for killing infantry with only tanks is based around revealing them with Reece platoons and then blowing them up with a barrage of firepower, whilst controlling the rest of my opponents army with smoke and pinning via the artillery.

The problem with an AVRE is the range of 4'' - infantry can assault you from concealment within 4'' and you can't do any defensive fire.

Brits have no decent breakthrough guns, but infantry with British bulldog do a very good job

The breaching group does have the advantage of Always Attack though, meaning you don't need to build in defensive units. So it might be worth it, even without AVsRE.

As a Tank Company you would always attack anyway against anything other than another Tank Company (which would be a roll off) or a company with the Always Attack rule.

I know, but Always Attack is nice for those times when you play against other tanks, just gives you more of an idea on how you should be playing. (Both for tactics and list building)

Also, the main Breaching Group (With the Sherman V and 2 Crabs) doesn't seem to bad value points wise anyway, so even when there aren't mines, they can make themselves useful.

Thing is though, as I said before, the Breaching Group is competing with the M10s for the list slot, and I think the M10s are probably more useful, although not against infantry.

Also, artillery wise, should I stick with 25 pdr Field Guns or should I go for the Sextons? They're a bit more expensive points wise, but they're much more flexible tactically as they can reposition to get away from danger or to plug gaps (As impromptu Assault Guns) if required.

HI.
IMO the only reason to take Sextons over 25 pdrs is if you like the models or to be historically accurate.
The Sherman OP is a bit more durable, but not as agile as the U/C
(If you are using a Air OP, then it a bit of a mute point.)

A range of 80" for bombardments is pretty good.
If you are relying on Sextons direct fire to help you to 'plug gaps' , its all got a bit desperate!
Armour of 1/0/0 is not going to stop much !

So, 1500pts. What do you think?

CnC Cromwell IV, 2iC Cromwell IV: 170pts

Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC: 360pts

Command Cromwell IV, 2x Cromwell IV, Firefly VC: 360pts

Command Rifle/MG, PIAT, Light Mortar, 3x Rifle/MG Squad w/Lorries: 145pts

2x M10C 17pdr SP: 155pts

Inns of Court Yeomanry w/ 2x Daimler 1, Daimler Dingo: 80pts

Command Rifle Team, 2x 40mm Bofors: 55pts

Field Battery, Royal Artillery w/ Command Rifle Team, Staff Team, 4x OQF 25 pdr, Sherman OP: 165pts

Personally would drop the bofors - I've never found them useful, could make the recon platoon stronger that way

I suppose that makes sense. I was also thinking perhaps it would be better to have a Challenger in one of the tank platoons rather than having a Sherman OP?

Also, for lower points level games, do you think it would be ok to rely on a pair of Cromwell Mk VI CS tanks for smoke coverage rather than taking the 25 pdrs?

I can not see the point in taking a Challenger over a Sherman VC.
Or am I not understanding the point you are making?

If you are playing against lists with little or no air support I would drop the Bofors.(Taking AA units is sort of personal preference.)

I would only take 2 Cromwell VI CS tanks over 25 pdrs if there was no possible alternative.
(I have used 4 Cromwell CS in the special platoon in the 11th A/D list in Market Garden for fun, and been quite lucky with them!)

The point with the Challenger was to fill the last 10 points in the list rather than having a Sherman OP. I thought it might be a better use of points as the three shot 17 pdr seems quite nice.

I think I will drop the bofors as none of my friends seem to be interested in air craft. (We do have one guy who might be running solely Tigers and King Tigers)

Also, yes, the CS tanks were as a low points alternative to the 25 pdrs where I simply didn't have enough points for the Arty.

Ok, just played a couple of games at a low points level, using only the cromwells and fireflys. (800pts) And my army sucked. Against infantry, they couldn't do anything. His list consisted of the Germans from Open Fire, hence Paks and lots of infantry.
Whatever I tried, I couldn't kill the infantry and guns before they killed the tanks.

Any suggestions?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what lists can you get in Market Garden which use Cromwells? I like the fast tanks, but I'm not convinced 7th Armoured are any good.

At that level, there isn't a whole lot you can do, especially considering that 2 of your tanks can't attack infantry at all, and you have no infantry of your own. The best thing to do is probably to leave the fireflies in concealment, covering the StuGs, and take the rest of your Cromwells to deal with the PaKs. So long as the Fireflies don't move, they can stay where they are, but once they're out of command any move order you issue them must be to try and get back into command, so you can't move the command tanks one direction, and the fireflies the other.

With the StuGs facing the Fireflies, and the Cromwells moving away, your opponent can either open fire at the FFs which, since I'm assuming you're using Desert Rats, will be Veteran, and likely both and Long Range and Concealed. If your opponent got the first turn, and the game type has Prepared Positions, your Fireflies will also be Gone to Ground whilst Concealed, making them impossible to hit at long range, otherwise, your opponent needs sixes to hit.

If he chooses to fire on you, out of the 6 dice he throws, he might get one hit, requiring you to roll 4 or less for a chance at destroying a firefly, or a 5 for a chance at bailing it. Either way, you'll probably have one Firefly left, which can itself fire, using semi-indirect to up the chances of hitting, even on the 6s you'll likely need. This might continue for another turn or so, and your Fireflies will probably lose, but could well take out a StuG or two with them but, more importantly, you'll have distracted the StuGs from the rest of your Cromwells. Since the side-armour of a StuG G/IV is only 3, and your Cromwells are light tanks, any remaining StuGs will be hard-pressed to keep all your tanks firing into their front armour.

Whilst your Fireflies have the StuGs pinned, your Cromwells can all but ignore the Grenadier squads, so long as you don't get so close as to be assaulted, and focus on the 2 PaKs. on the advance, you'll want to keep them under direct-fire smoke until you're close enough to do some damage. The lack of Recon and Artillery means that you can't lift their GtG, so they'll get a 3+ save if they didn't move or shoot in the last turn, and you'll be unlikely to pin them, but being light tanks yourself, and with PaK40s only having a forward-facing field of fire, you can easily drive around them--also bypassing their gun shields--to assault range, fire off a few shots, and assault.

Since you're out of their FoF, I don't think (don't quote me on this) they can conduct defensive fire on you, and since you're Veteran, you'll be squishing them on 3s in assault. On the off-chance that a team survives, they need to test motivation to counter-attack armoured tanks, which, if failed by a gun team, means any assaulting model or base within 2" that can capture (so no bogged or bail tanks, in your case) automatically captures and destroys the gun team.

Difficulty arises if the PaKs are in terrain, making bogging a potential occurrence for assaults, or ringed by his Grenadiers. Since gun teams can fire over friendly infantry teams, ringing his PaKs with the far less vulnerable-to-assault Grenadiers doesn't hinder him in the slightest, and if the PaKs are within 8" of a unit attempting to assault the grenadiers, and that unit is within the guns' FoF, they can join in defensive fire, which makes for unhappy assaulting tanks. In this circumstance, it's better to use the two Cromwell platoons to stay still at 16.1" and fire their main guns at the PaKs (thanks to semi-indirect fire, 8 shots on 5s with re-rolls is statistically better than 8 shots on 4s without), and for your command Cromwells to finish up the shooting step by hitting them with DF smoke. The PaKs will get saves, and if you're in front of their gun-shields, you'll need FP tests to clear them out, but it's the only way.

Going back to the StuGs, if they do chase the Cromwells, your Fireflies can follow them, taking potshots on the move without much fear of reprisal.

Sadly your list will not do great against infantry. What will help you will be recce - make it easier to hit the enemy and infantry to fight them - no other decent option with brits

My tactics for the Paks were along the lines of what you suggest Avatar, but the problem I had was that he had prepared positions and so, at long range, it was impossible to hit the Paks. As smoke, as far as I understand, uses all the normal modifiers and so I couldn't smoke them at long range and then, if I get close enough to smoke, I'm close enough to shoot at.

I like your suggestion of using the fireflies to occupy the stugs although I would have thought that a smart player would just turn round and go after the Cromwells?

In terms of expanding the list, I was considering the breaching group again for digging out infantry. Seeing as you get four AVsRE for 80pts, it seems to me like they might be pretty good against an infantry list, especially if they have limited anti tank. They also have the flexibility of being swapped out for Shermans if they're not needed.
Other than that, I can't see too many options I the list for dealing with infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there are other lists which use Cromwell tanks but have better support options, I'm open to suggestions, as two out of the three lists I will be playing are infantry based. (Germans and Russians) Having had a quick look through Overlord, I've come across the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, who can take Desert Rats Armoured Platoons as support, but they're only Confident Trained.
They would, however, allow me to take Wasp carriers, which seem pretty good as anti infantry.