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Singleton Mosby wrote:
- is there any reference in the list to flyers (Avenger, thunderbolt)?

This shouldn't make any difference. DKoK are still part of the IG faction, so you can take any IG flyers you want in your DKoK detachment even if they aren't in the DKoK army list.

The DKOK already had immunity to fear.

@Peregrine: Normal Deep Strike, only lasguns.

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Thanks a thon for the reviews. A couple of questions:

- do the Death riders still have FNP 6+ or is it 5+ like the new death rider company commander had?
- can the breaching drill deepstrike?
- you say they now have armywide rule "immune to fear". Really? That would be nice
- is there any reference in the list to flyers (Avenger, thunderbolt)?
- are engineers and centaurs the same as they were and still troops?

- 6+
- yes
- yes (apparently not new)
- No but they are BB with SM and AM
- Engineers are Troops, Centaurs are Dedicated Transports (Engineers, Field Artillery, Grenadiers, Quartermaster, Commissar-general, Company Command Squad......but strangely not Heavy Artillery Battery).

I've been scouring the web today trying to find pictures of The Purge and Unending Host formations so I can try the exact rules myself. I recently bought IA13 (special edition) and all three Vraks books. I have a big chaos nurgle army and a big nurgle R&H army built with 100 corrupted krieg troops that I am finishing up, so obviously I'm interested in the new Vraks book...but first I want to test out the two new formations with the rules in front of me to see if it's worth buying the whole big fifth book in my collection just to play with those two formations! Crossing my fingers that something pops up soon now that the book is shipping...would love to do a few practice games. For example, I'm unclear whether The Purge is open to both CSM and R&H separately or if you can mix and match across books in the same formation.

...now that I think about it, I also need to find out if they changed Zhufor for a 4th iteration. Most recent version was the 2013 apoc book. I spent a lot of time on my nurgle Zhuor conversion (used the typhus model).

Thanks for the fresh info Baragash! The new detachments are definitely á la Krieg! The DR detachment is a little underwhelming, I was hoping for more. The Gorgon detachment looks awesome, if not hideously expensive (maybe I'm wrong). If you ask me, these detachments look better themed to the Assault Brigade list from IA12, but I suppose they fit the Vraks fluff too.

 Baragash wrote:
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.

I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?

What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )

 Baragash wrote:
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.

I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.

On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!

I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.

Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.

Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone

Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.

Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Grey Knights in here you say? Might warrant some interest

Nothing ruleswise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?

The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.

Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.

The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.

WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!

I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.

Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.

Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone

Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.

Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Grey Knights in here you say? Might warrant some interest

Nothing ruleswise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?

The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.

Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.

The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.

WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.

Same :-/ I've been dying to see the two formations this whole weekend, since it's a perfect fit for the Nurgle CSM/R&H force I have spent the last two years of my life building...

If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?

Same unit IIRC.

 Crabbit wrote:
What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )

Colonel has better stats and is a Senior Officer versus the CCS being a Junior Officer, which means different orders (see an earlier post). Only one set of WTs.

 Crabbit wrote:
I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.

Most of the LoW (I think all bar the Macharius) are referenced to the most recent IA Apoc book rather than printing their rules, I don't recall the Gorgon stats being in this book.

On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.

I don't have the AM book yet so I can't check, sorry (well I could check them against IA13 when I'm at home I suppose).

Thanks for the info!
If I may ask some questions:

- is the leman russ conqueror "fast"?
- How many men has the grenadier's squad? Minimum of 5 or always 10?
- can the platoon infantry squads be combined like in the AM codex?
- Are the leman russ point costs cheaper than these http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf?
- Is there any relic?
- Is the storm chimera in?

Thanks!

Did zhufor change from IA apoc 2013? Still 7 powertists of points?

Is The Purge mix and match R&H and CDM or just one or the other?

Does Unending Host come with a force org chart or is it the standard slots from Combined Arms that we know and love?

Thanks

I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.

 Virules wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!

I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.

Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.

Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone

Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.

Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Grey Knights in here you say? Might warrant some interest

Nothing ruleswise.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?

The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.

Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.

The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.

WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.

Same :-/ I've been dying to see the two formations this whole weekend, since it's a perfect fit for the Nurgle CSM/R&H force I have spent the last two years of my life building...

While it sucks there's no Fast Attack slot, having plenty of Elite Slots makes up for it. Without needing the Nurgle Lord, I can be free to just use a MoN Warpsmith, and get three Sicarans with an Obliterators retinue, and spend the rest of the Elite slots on plausible AA and toys.
Not like Heldrakes were reliable AA anyway...

Aenarian wrote:
I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.

Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.

I don't know who you were talking to specifically, but I already spoke to this in my earlier posts.

Thanks Baragash!

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?

Same unit IIRC.

Hmm... that seems overkill. I guess if you are charging huge blobs or MCs it is a bonus.

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )

Colonel has better stats and is a Senior Officer versus the CCS being a Junior Officer, which means different orders (see an earlier post). Only one set of WTs.

Thanks for the clarification. It would have been nice if they distinguished him from the regular foot CCS, especially if he has to be taken as your warlord.

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.

Most of the LoW (I think all bar the Macharius) are referenced to the most recent IA Apoc book rather than printing their rules, I don't recall the Gorgon stats being in this book.

If that is the case, the Gorgon detachment is still very expensive for what it will achieve. On the other hand, it sure is mega-fluffy and a maxed out detachment would look awesome on a table!

 Baragash wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:

On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.

I don't have the AM book yet so I can't check, sorry (well I could check them against IA13 when I'm at home I suppose).

I have not seen IA13, but I would guess renegades pay similar points for their LRBTs compared to AM. If you have a chance, this would be a useful comparison. Without giving out specifics, AM LRBT point costs look something like this: Erad < Exter < Vanq < Pun < LRBT < Exec < Demo.

Singleton Mosby wrote:

Aenarian wrote:
I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.

Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.

I'll explain my point of view if you explain yours, alright?

First of all, not everything in the armylist(s) are bad. The Death Korps have some really good units, such as the Laser Destroyers and Heavy/Field Artillery Batteries. These can definitely improve whatever list you are using if you take enough of them, but unless you spam your best options, what else can you bring? Very little.

The special rules, i.e. WS4, immunity to fear, no leadership tests for suffering shooting casualties or the can always rally normally if within 6" of an officer are all somewhat decent, but you lose combined squads and almost all good sources of heavy weapons paying a premium for the units. Your orders are arguably worse, especially as you lose some really good ones (such as Fire on my Target), and gain leadership (which you gain even less out of compared to normal AM) and assault orders. The latter ones might be cool if you could actually do something, but you are still guardsmen, but you still can't beat anything in close combat., especially as you can't get priests, combined squads etc. So you basically either lose and get swept or you win and the enemy assault units stay in combat while you slowly grind eachother down. The warlord traits are in my opinion also worse than the AM ones, and none of them are actually cool. Where are the order improvements, the extra turn for the warlord and his unit or the 5+ to gain a VP if a unit is destroyed near your warlord?

And then we have the units. Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above, as well as Krak Grenades (which I've never seen taken on any other unit who had to pay for it), while losing a large part of the their firepower (no heavy weapons) and close combat bonuses (no priests, no combined squads). The same goes for platoon command squads, which are also 20 points more than the equivalent AM-unit which also loses the ability to take heavy weapons as well as only being able to take 2 special ones. The Combat Engineers are 9 points (full squad) for a T3 4+ unit with shotguns, one special weapon, one gimmicky 'heavy' and a transport which will deep strike and kill itself as well as the attached units whenever it mishaps. Remember that deep striking close to the enemy is also encouraged as you are "close-combat" guardsmen. Some units such as the Hellhound and all of its variants, and most of the Leman Russes are as lackluster in this army list as in Codex: Astra Militarum. Grenadiers costs the same as Tempestus Scions but you have no way of getting them into the thick of the fighting apart from using Centaurs.

Few units are actually better than their counterparts in the main Codex, one being Death Riders, but you can still reach the conclusion that anything you can do, Astra Militarum can do better. They can actually make decent close combat squads (30-50 FEARLESS soldiers with priest buffs), have superior shooting capabilites and can take almost all of your toys (Artillery Batteries, Rapiers...) while losing very little of value. You are made out as a close combat horde army, but you can't actually do any damage. You gain a ton of leadership buffs, but I've never found myself needing them and when I do, it's when I've lost an assault and then we're talking about a -5 modifier. You can mass artillery, but so can Astra MIlitarum and they actually make even better use of them (Ignore Cover Earthshakers? Yes please!).

And then we have this new update. What I've seen so far doesn't fill me with hope. Gorgons are definitely not good, as you pay 400 points for something with less firepower than two Wyverns and the transport capacity of 48 Chimeras. Yes its open-topped so you can charge, but you can still only disembark two units (which means 20 men max unless we can combine squads now) a turn and once it goes boom, it basically kills whatever it's transporting. The Death Rider detachments seems fun but Fear is considered one of the most pointless rules in the entire game.

Believe me, I want it to be good. I want cheaper infantry, I want more and better orders and I want cooler Warlord Traits. But what I'm seeing is basically the 6th edition PDF with some adjusted points cost (Leman Russes etc.) while solving none of the issues.

Aenarian wrote:
Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above

Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.

The Combat Engineers are 9 points (full squad) for a T3 4+ unit with shotguns, one special weapon, one gimmicky 'heavy' and a transport which will deep strike and kill itself as well as the attached units whenever it mishaps.

Based on what has been said so far the drill is now much more powerful. You're getting D6+2 "power fist" hits as HOW, plus whatever you can do with your shooting. Keep it cheap and that's not bad.

and can take almost all of your toys (Artillery Batteries, Rapiers...) while losing very little of value.

Don't underestimate the value of not taking morale tests from casualties. Codex IG armies have to pay a commissar tax to use these units efficiently, otherwise you're one roll of an 8+ away from losing an expensive unit.

The Death Rider detachments seems fun but Fear is considered one of the most pointless rules in the entire game.

So pretend it doesn't exist. The real value is the "rough riders as troops" ability we've been begging for ever since 5th edition.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.

If I like something, I always buy it. I tested various IA12 and 13 stuff before I committed merely because this hobby sucks when you're a part time worker and full time student. I always try to give FW my money when I decide they deserve it, trust me.

 Peregrine wrote:

Aenarian wrote:
Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above

Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.

Nah, I was talking about the current rules.

But I'll concede the other points, apart from the fact that as you previously said, the drill will most likely suffer from majority toughness. Codex: AM also has a warlord trait to diminish shooting morale (as you are well aware), but I agree that having it on every unit is better.

Edit: I'll also note that it seems like that we won't get any relics this time as well. Boo.

 Peregrine wrote:

Aenarian wrote:
Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above

Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.

They've always been 20pts more expensive unfortunately IIRC barring the 5E PDF list. They were 20pts more in the 4E list as well.

Given that they've always lacked the ability to take heavy weapons, and they can't blob up (I'm assuming they haven't changed that?), I don't see where they're worth any more than normal guardsmen at 50pts.

Why would they pay for the Forlorn Hope rule if they cannot use it below 1500 points anyway? I thought the disadvantage (the objective) was meant to offset any potential gain.

Indeed. It's very odd that FW has made *the* IG attrition army actually really bad at actual attrition.

 Aenarian wrote:

Singleton Mosby wrote:

Aenarian wrote:
I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.

Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.

I'll explain my point of view if you explain yours, alright?

OK, I can see where you're coming from with your arguments. I however use the siege list in an altogether different way then you apparently do.

My core unit of troops is the following: 5 engineers in a centaur with a melta/plasma and a heavy flamer.
This unit of just over 100 points looks cute on the table but can take on very much an opponent throws at it. I usually run three or four of these units and they almost always get the job done reliably. A centaur seems flimsy, but it is fast and an ideal firering-platform. And when it explodes your guys won't run away and shake off most of the wounds with their 4+ armour. These chaps run around the battlefield from cover to cover, park their centaur in front of an enemy unit and lay down their heavy flamer, followed by the shotguns and melta/plasma. Occasionally they also leave their centaurs for some close-combat at which they are not half-bad. And of course these chaps being objective secured is a nice thing as well. The only thing which they can't take on by themselves are MCs.

Their grenadier cousin can be fun against marines, especially combined with Death riders. 5 guys in a centaur doesn't sound like a lot but 3 hot-shot lasguns and two plasmaguns can be a pain-in-the-ass for any marine unit.

That being said, I don't use the regular infantry squads often since they do not oblige with my playing style (fast and furious) and underperform whenever I use them. This is why I do not rely on AM: orders at all. I hardly ever use them to be fair. For heavy weapons I rely on my Rapiers, Thudd guns and Russ', which are fare more effective then the occasional las-/auto-cannon. Which is a shame btw since I have a 12 heavy weapon teams. But hey, I don't play a gunline army anymore, so they're obsolete.

Other units I use are a Rapier battery, two thudd-guns, some Russ' (depending on the opponent I face), Cyclops-demo-vehicles and Death riders (2 or 3 squads of 5). The good thing about it is that almost every opponent isn't frightened about what he sees on the opposite side of the table but all of these units can be very painfull when used correctly. That being said, I've a big problem when we play "Kill-points". So yeah, on the face of it we will almost play a different army from the exact same list.

Singleton Mosby wrote:
This unit of just over 100 points looks cute on the table but can take on very much an opponent throws at it. I usually run three or four of these units and they almost always get the job done reliably. A centaur seems flimsy, but it is fast and an ideal firering-platform. And when it explodes your guys won't run away and shake off most of the wounds with their 4+ armour. These chaps run around the battlefield from cover to cover, park their centaur in front of an enemy unit and lay down their heavy flamer, followed by the shotguns and melta/plasma. Occasionally they also leave their centaurs for some close-combat at which they are not half-bad. And of course these chaps being objective secured is a nice thing as well. The only thing which they can't take on by themselves are MCs.

Now compare them to codex melta/plasma vets and cry. The new Hades drill might change this, but otherwise engineers are pretty weak.

Their grenadier cousin can be fun against marines, especially combined with Death riders. 5 guys in a centaur doesn't sound like a lot but 3 hot-shot lasguns and two plasmaguns can be a pain-in-the-ass for any marine unit.

That might have been an argument before the current IG codex, but now that codex storm troopers are the same cost the grenadiers suck. The only ones that are worth it are the IA12 version since they're troops, and even then it's kind of questionable.

You all underestimate the Centaur. It is a fast, open-topped dedicated transport. And very small so you can hide it anywhere to get some coversaves. What you want more?

Singleton Mosby wrote:
You all underestimate the Centaur. It is a fast, open-topped dedicated transport. And very small so you can hide it anywhere to get some coversaves.

It's also very fragile and gets hardly any benefit from being fast since it has no (significant) guns. And most of the time it gets no benefit from being open-topped because you only have one gun worth shooting out of it. Yeah, it's a tiny model, but hiding it behind cover usually means not shooting with its passengers, making it a 100+ point paperweight.

What you want more?

AV 12, 3 HP, useful guns, and useful troops to put inside it. AKA a Chimera with melta/plasma vets.

So to make the siege list work you circumvent the whole point of the siege list? Seems pretty damning to me. TBH I found both this book and IA13 to be quite poor from a rules execution point of view and I'm seriously questioning spending any more money on FW 40k stuff (and I own all the books apart from the Tyranid 2nd Ed).

I'm having to work late at the moment so it may be later in the week that I get to address the questions people have asked, but I will get there.

FYI for Renegade players: Sabres are gone, bad luck if you bought those with the original list. Khornegor beastmen are gone, bad luck if you converted some models for that but you can use them as mutants I guess (TBH Khorne got the short end of the stick compared to Nurgle). Priests are gone, bad luck if you bought those, though I guess you could use them as Demagogues.

 Baragash wrote:
So to make the siege list work you circumvent the whole point of the siege list?

You have a good point there, yes. I play the Siege list as an assault list, which is indeed a bit strange (but have a lot of fun doing so).

Are the Grenadiers still 12 pts a pop?