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 jreilly89 wrote:
According to who?

According to GW.

GW has made it pretty clear that their "rules" are often a lot more like guidelines, what with Forging the Narrative.

That doesn't change the fact that there's still a standard game that your house rules modify.

There is nothing in the rulebook requiring I play a game with SH or Flyers (although Flyers ahead of time is fine).

You're right, there isn't. But your choice to refuse to play against those things is a decision to enforce a "no flyers or superheavies" house rule. And you don't have the right to expect your opponents to notify you in advance that they're not going to be following your house rule.

Besides, what makes part of the standard game?

The fact that the rulebooks published by GW allow you to take flyers and superheavies without any mention of requiring special permission/alternate game types/whatever. They're just units like any other unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
According to who?

snip.

I was getting at is it more an alteration of their list to be malicious or to be helpful to the opponent.

Like, I wouldn't play a 10-0-0 formation in FIFA if I only needed to draw (aka- Doing a Chelsea or "Parking the bus") because that's just snide, I'd maybe approach a bit more cautious but not be a complete dick and make the game about me putting the ball in the corner and being dirty-

I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.

I hate the rules, Lords of War should've been kept for special occasions, not everyday games. OP should've probably laid down that Lords of War aren't in the battle, House rules. But that's just me.

super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?

BrianDavion wrote:
super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?

You mean like a generation gap, with older players not used to Lords of Battle hating the new guys who see Lords of Battle as "Just another unit" ?

Because that would make sense, at this point.

CalSt23 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
super heavies these days are in codices same as anything else. is a new player who picked up the codex orks after 7th launched and took a stompa because it's just another unit in his codex to him being "that guy"?

You mean like a generation gap, with older players not used to Lords of Battle hating the new guys who see Lords of Battle as "Just another unit" ?

Because that would make sense, at this point.

I was more thinking that we need to adapt, but now that you mention it a "generation gap" strikes me as very possiable. I used to play battletech until a few years back, and there was always a generation gap between those who insisted on the original 3025 technology, and those who accepted the new "star league era" and even clan tech.

I think it's worth noting that the clock never turned back. and those few people who refused to accept the new stuff basicly withered away, as they eaither adapted, or stopped playing. cause eventually they reached a point where they had to accept it

CalSt23 wrote:
I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.

I think you missed the point there. The Malcador is a truly awful unit, despite being a superheavy tank. Any IG player that takes one would be better off taking LRBTs instead with those points. It doesn't matter what army you take to play against the Malcador, you have a better chance of winning because they included that "cheese" unit.

Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."

 Peregrine wrote:

CalSt23 wrote:
I still don't know about it being worse than its pts in LRBTs though, sure, you could bring along some vanquishers and go tank hunter on it, but whats the point? You'd be spending all your points because someones forced you to do that.

I think you missed the point there. The Malcador is a truly awful unit, despite being a superheavy tank. Any IG player that takes one would be better off taking LRBTs instead with those points. It doesn't matter what army you take to play against the Malcador, you have a better chance of winning because they included that "cheese" unit.

Oooooh. Ok.

To be honest, you'd choose a Stormlord against Horde armies or a Banesword for anything else. If we're talking super heavy tanks, its the Baneblade family.

CalSt23 wrote:
To be honest, you'd choose a Stormlord against Horde armies or a Banesword for anything else. If we're talking super heavy tanks, its the Baneblade family.

Yes, but that's the whole point: you can't say things like "LoW are cheese" when LoW units range from blatantly overpowered to so weak you're crippling your own list by taking them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."

Obviously you have a choice to enforce your house rule and refuse to play. The point is that you aren't being reasonable if you're expecting your opponent to read your mind and know that you demand advance warning for taking certain arbitrary classes of units. This isn't 5th edition anymore, superheavies and flyers are part of the normal game and it's entirely your fault if you're surprised by them. And if you feel so strongly about them that you need advance warning before anyone brings them to a game against you then you have the obligation to inform them in advance and allow them to make appropriate changes to their army (or just decide you're not worth the effort).

 jreilly89 wrote:

I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.

The army building rules in the rulebook specifically mention players being free to use whatever models they have.

If you want to forge that narrative, and restrict the sorts of units that will be present in the game, that's totally fine. The point is simply that it is a little unreasonable to expect your opponent to know that you want to do that if the two of you don't discuss it prior to the game.

If you don't discuss any restrictions, then the default should always be to just use the rules in the dukedom. And that means that you shouldn't be any more surprised to see flyers or lords of war than any other type of unit.

if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off.

Flip that around. How would you feel if you show up to a game with a list that you think is perfectly reasonable, only to find that your friend is 'cheesed off' at your choice of armies because he didn't want to play against what you brought, but didn't bother to do you the courtesy of discussing it prior to the game and so is now annoyed at you for his own lack of communication?

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

I'm sorry. What? I have read the rulebook, cover to cover, and never seen something along the lines of "surprise your opponent with whatever the feth you want". Rather, most of it is about Forging the Narrative and having a fun and friendly game.

The army building rules in the rulebook specifically mention players being free to use whatever models they have.

If you want to forge that narrative, and restrict the sorts of units that will be present in the game, that's totally fine. The point is simply that it is a little unreasonable to expect your opponent to know that you want to do that if the two of you don't discuss it prior to the game.

If you don't discuss any restrictions, then the default should always be to just use the rules in the dukedom. And that means that you shouldn't be any more surprised to see flyers or lords of war than any other type of unit.

if I had a friend who intentionally brought this gak against me, with no warning, I'd be rather cheesed off.

Flip that around. How would you feel if you show up to a game with a list that you think is perfectly reasonable, only to find that your friend is 'cheesed off' at your choice of armies because he didn't want to play against what you brought, but didn't bother to do you the courtesy of discussing it prior to the game and so is now annoyed at you for his own lack of communication?

no one is denying thatyou can bring what you want, the point is that should an opponent give some warning before hand if he is intending on bringing a list spamming some op unit, you don't think he should I do think he should and thus I am glad I am not in your gaming circle.

If you turn up to your regular gaming club expecting a friendly game and your opponent has sammed any OP unit without giving you advance warning then yeh under the rules he has done nothing wrong but I know morally and under a 'gentlemans' agreement he has. It is the same as if an opponent has found out your exact army list and decided to tailor an army to beat it, he has broken no rules but morally what he is doing is not right.

We could compare it to FIFA which someone did previously. If I went online and wanted to play a friendly game with my friend and I picked a normal team and he picked his dream team where he has picked the best players in the world to be on that team, yes he has not broken any rules but we all know he should have said in advance he was going to be using his super team rather than a normal team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."

Easier said then done. Easy to say you will just cancel the game butyou don't know how long that player has spent travelling to his gaming club to play, how much money he has spent getting there, how reguarly he can play so when he would be able to play again in the future etc.

I hope you also give your opponent warning that you're bringing a weak list.

I'd also hardly call bringing three vendettas OP spam.

I like your moral high ground comment. You are not any more right in this situation than your opponent. If you expect a certain type of game, you have to make that abundantly clear. If you failed to do that, you're the only one to blame.

 Blacksails wrote:
I hope you also give your opponent warning that you're bringing a weak list.

I'd also hardly call bringing three vendettas OP spam.

I like your moral high ground comment. You are not any more right in this situation than your opponent. If you expect a certain type of game, you have to make that abundantly clear. If you failed to do that, you're the only one to blame.

Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.

So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?

champagne_socialist wrote:


Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.

From your posts, I gather you got tabled very early in the game, and seeing that Vendettas are not particularly OP, and that Knights are strong, but reasonable especially if there's only one, I'm going to assume one of two things. Either your opponent is leagues better than you, or your list lacked some fundamentals, thus making it a weak list.

You can twist that however you like, but being tabled before turn 4 in the face of three flyers and a Knight doesn't speak well to your list.

So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?

No, what I'm saying is that players should feel free to take whatever units their heart desires in whatever multiples they like without being told they're morally wrong. Unless you've made arrangements and clearly defined what kind of game you're looking for and restricted certain things or units, then you shouldn't be upset when someone brings an army better than yours. Likewise, your opponent could feel equally peeved with you for bringing such an underwhelming list and would be totally within sanity to ask that you make a better list.

Any requests, limitations, or changes you'd ask of your opponent, be prepared to do the same in return.

I'd say that if its a true "friendly" game, he would have given a "friendly" notice that he was. If both players agree and bring tough armies it can still be friendly.

I guess to me and my group keeping it friendly means leaving it a more level playing field. This doesn't stop our games from being competitive or having tough armies, but it does stop it from being lopsided. Cause no one enjoys a game like that, besides the f'n guy that brought all the swiss...

 Blacksails wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:


Since when did I say I brought a weak list? I just never spammed OP units.

From your posts, I gather you got tabled very early in the game, and seeing that Vendettas are not particularly OP, and that Knights are strong, but reasonable especially if there's only one, I'm going to assume one of two things. Either your opponent is leagues better than you, or your list lacked some fundamentals, thus making it a weak list.

You can twist that however you like, but being tabled before turn 4 in the face of three flyers and a Knight doesn't speak well to your list.

So what you are saying is players should turn up to friendly games with as much OP spam as possible without giving a polite notice to their opponent that their list is going to be competitive?

No, what I'm saying is that players should feel free to take whatever units their heart desires in whatever multiples they like without being told they're morally wrong. Unless you've made arrangements and clearly defined what kind of game you're looking for and restricted certain things or units, then you shouldn't be upset when someone brings an army better than yours. Likewise, your opponent could feel equally peeved with you for bringing such an underwhelming list and would be totally within sanity to ask that you make a better list.

Any requests, limitations, or changes you'd ask of your opponent, be prepared to do the same in return.

Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.

So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.

So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm

Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.

Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.

So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?

You seem fixated on "spamming op units."
It could be, "These units are awesome! I love 'em so I'll bring 'em."
Spam to one might not be spam to another. What's your definition of spam? Two? Three? Eight? Your definition might not be the same as your opponent's.

The fact that 40k isn't good for pick up games isn't either of yall's fault, but expecting a (close to) fair game with no discussion isn't going to happen.

The term "cheese" is for people bad at games/misunderstanding games. Or, easily put, a scrub:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Or in Dakka terms, you're hating the player instead of the appropriate target; the poorly balanced crap shoot that is 40k and the subsequent codex releases.

@champagne_socialist, are you trolling? Or is the looping hypocrisy accidental?

So your list wasn't weak? Then you shouldn't have struggled, because his list isn't that strong... vendettas are not a top tier unit anymore, and three is barely spamming (unless you think 3 Rhinos, 3 Chimeras, 3 Predators, 3 Stealth Suit squads etc spammy... which would be weird). If your list wasn't weak, as you keep implying, and if you weren't dominated, as you also keep insinuating, why the whine with the alleged cheese... can't have it both ways
.
What on earth was your friendly list... if your going to judge him so hard for his list, put it all on the table... his full list and yours. Not that it matters that much, because his is reasonable.

You didn't bring any anti flyer?
You didn't bring any anti armor?
You didn't plan for a big MC or SH?

If you did none of these things, you're just not building very wise lists. This is 40k now... you need those elements for just a pick up game. If you did have these... what's the complaint? That you lost? I don't see the issue here.

If nothing else, put on the big boy pants and see your role in this. You set no parameters at all, and are then upset that your opponent didn't read your mind on exactly the type of list you wanted to face? Are you a latch-key only child? What a completely unrealistic and unfair standard to hold someone to! Your imagined "good game", though not expressed, is what you expect people to match? Entitled much? Then, if your list is so weak against flyers AND an IK, say something before dice roll. Ask him to cut the Knight and you'll cut the same points from yours. You can't agree to play the game and then blast the guy on the internet when you didn't even take reasonable steps to let him balance his list a bit (though I still struggle to see what reasonable list can't handle either a SH or a few flyers).

I frequent 3 local clubs, know the meta of at least 4 others in IL, in all 7 of these, your opponents list is friendly enough. I don't condone list tailoring, but maybe you're just a little too predictable as a general. My opponents never see the same list twice (unless they ask to)... only an extra 500 points of alternates can really change the play style of a list in most Codices.

Three vendettas and an IK...I feel like it's just a matter of turtling at that point, that list has almost zero objective pressure at that point value. Just dump all your dudes out of any transports you've got, concentrate on wiping whatever he's got on the board that isn't the IK, if you remembered to bring some basic tactical flexibility in the form of deep strikers/out flankers or a solid high strength melee unit good on you you can gib the knight and it's game, if not just don't let the vehicles explode on anybody.

If I was gonna pick a flyer I hoped my opponent would bring, there are few options id place higher than a vendetta now that they only blow stuff up on a six. Just get your stuff into cover and bunker down.

6 HP AV 13 is not exactly impervious to damage, either.

I mean let's see an IK is like 350-400ish, and the flyers are somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 each, am I in the right ballpark here? That means he had 400 points actually on the board with the IK turn 1. If your list had NO anti heavy NO anti air then there's no reason for a single point of that to still be around turn 2.

If your infantry are spread 2" apart, and your vehicles are all parked in cover at the end of that turn 1 and he's got nothing or very little left to hold objectives, well that's pretty dang much game no matter what list you bring to the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
6 HP AV 13 is not exactly impervious to damage, either.

Yeah but if you're trying to fight it without a big damage spike you're unlikely to get it.

That's why pretty much every list I run has alt-deployment anti tank somewhere in it. There's generally gonna be something worth popping up behind and melta-ing/hay wiring the crap out of, doubly so if it's a Stupidheavy. Jump troops, outflanking fast squads, something. There's so many options for it and it makes the game so much more interesting, tbh if your fluffy list is so skewed you don't have even that bare minimum you're spamming too, just...worse.

champagne_socialist wrote:


Don't assume I got tabled early on in the game or even tabled at all because I never said that.

You didn't say it, but it was implied, especially when one of your examples was that being tabled on turn 2 isn't fun. That, and I'm sure you wouldn't be as upset about this if you weren't tabled.

So basically what you are saying is what I said earlier that you wouldn't follow any kind of moral code when you agree to a game, you would just turn up and spam whatever OP unit you desire without giving any kind of warning to your opponent that your list would be competitive.

First of all, a gaming moral code differs by person. What you're expecting is everyone to follow some arbitrary standard you've made up and not communicated.

Second of all, read what I wrote again. I said people should feel free to take whatever they like, unless a discussion was had that delineated what is acceptable and what isn't.

Third, 3 Vendettas and a Knight hardly classify as OP.

So if I was to arrange a game with you your thought process and the convo would go like this:
Chamagne socialist: fancy a 1500 point game on sunday
blacksails: sure lets meet at 3pm

If that's all you felt like discussing, sure. If you wanted to ensure further restrictions and have a detailed understanding of what power level is expected, than we'd talk more.

Champagne socialist thought process ' well it is just a friendly non-tournament game so even though I have 3 of these OP units and under the rules I can use all 3 I will just bring 1 because I want to keep the game friendly rather than turn it into a WAAC match.

Which is your decision to make. Nothing inherently right or wrong or superior about it.

Blacksails thought process: ' well he never asked if I was going to spam OP units and forget that it is a friendly game where the idea is to have fun so I am just going to bring whatever units I want without giving him any notice whatsoever that I am creating a cheese list, it's his own fault for not mentioning it in our conversation'.

No, because taking 3 Vendettas and a Knight are not cheese. In this scenario, my thought process would be along the lines of 'Gee, these are some cool units I'd love to use. Flyers are fairly common now, as are Knights, so my opponent probably made a list that covers the basics.'

That, and yes, it is your fault for not explaining you didn't want to face more than 1 flyer or superheavies.

Don't act morally superior for bringing a weak list.

So in essence your view is that unless your opponent specifically prohibits yo bringing cheese to a game you would bring as much cheese as possible and you would refuse to tell him before hand because he never asked. Major point being you would refuse to tell him before hand that you were going to be bringing an op cheese army so he could create a liost to give you a closer game and make the event far more fun for the both of you?

Again, cheese is incredibly subjective. I'd suggest you drop the term or this conversation isn't going to get anywhere. Further, vendettas are hardly overpowered, and Knights, while strong, should be a common consideration in list construction.

You're acting all indignant about list strength, but if I was in your opponent's shoe and read your thoughts about this scenario, I'd think pretty poorly of you. You're expecting people to conform to your arbitrary standard of fun/friendly lists without explaining what that is. I imagine the vast majority of people can't read minds, so the onus rests on your to explain to your opponent what kind of game you're looking for. Otherwise, build a better list that can handle things like Knights and Vendettas.

Maybe this is an opportunity for you to grow, rather than complain that people brought a strong list and you didn't.

OP: so you consider a Knight and 3 fliers 'cheese'. What makes you think your fried shares your opinion?

It's perfectly possible that simebody else has different standards for 'cheese' than you do. For example in the group where I play, a single knight and 3 fliers is definitely nothing to write home about.

I think, as has been said, you're wrong to be annoyed about the "cheese". Firstly, it's subjective, secondly, it's part of the rules.

I'd get a bit annoyed by list-tailoring, though.

Plus it is not like your opponent can do much. My most played opponent has a GK army, no matter what he takes he kills my army around turn 2-3 and makes it not work on turn1. Against a non IG army his GK are probably normal, for me they super unfun, but it is not his foult that GW decided to make a 4 units codex for him.

And he doesn't even tailor his list against me, his list is TAC.

I guess that w40k stoped being a game you could just pick up and play with someone and turned in to some sort of LARP where before playing you have to go through the process of you and your opponent buying and making armies the way any possible opponents may want to play. Good for good TAC armies or armies that are just good no matter what you take and bad for everyone else.

champagne_socialist wrote:
recently played a game where my opponent brought quite a tough army. We agreed on 1500 points and so I made a fun list thinking it was a friendly game as we never said we were bringing cheese. So I turn up to the game and he shows me his army list and he has 3 flyers and an Imperial Knight.

champagne_socialist wrote:


Well he said that he brought the list because he wanted to try the models but then later in the evening I heard him saying to another player that he brought the list because he saw me play the week before and saw what i brang and wanted to bring a list that would beat me eg tailoring his army to beat me.

Problem: Complete lack of communication. You and your "buddy" did not have the same idea of what kind of game you're going to play. You need to discuss this in more detail in the future. Him tailoring his army is irrelevant to this particular encounter since you didn't clearly specify that you wanted a "fluffy" or "fun" game. That's 100% on you. You need to tell your opponent what kind of game you're looking for, but be much more specific than "fun". Fun to me is 2 painted armies and a friendly opponent, regardless of how good a general or how tough an army.

Solution: Open your pie hole for something other than ding-dongs. Come to an agreement on the kind of game to play. If you and your opponent can't, then shake his hand anyway and move on.

yeah, but let say OP tells his buddy he wants a fun and fluffy game. And his opponent brings the exact same list. Because what is unfluffy in IG with 3 valks and the knights codex clearly stats they fight alongside anyone. And what is unfun in winning games, so why not tailor if you can.

Makumba wrote:
yeah, but let say OP tells his buddy he wants a fun and fluffy game. And his opponent brings the exact same list. Because what is unfluffy in IG with 3 valks and the knights codex clearly stats they fight alongside anyone. And what is unfun in winning games, so why not tailor if you can.

That is why you use better words than fluffy/fun. Further, if you agree to X and he doesn't do X, then don't play him anymore. You two obviously have different ideas of "fun". Nothing wrong with it, but don't waste time on games you don't enjoy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Well, there's nothing to say that you have to play at all, and what's someone going to do, hold a gun to your head? If you show up at a game expecting one thing, and the person has brought something else, you can simply say, "Dude, that's not what I'm expecting. We can meet up again, but this will be a waste of time."

Obviously you have a choice to enforce your house rule and refuse to play. The point is that you aren't being reasonable if you're expecting your opponent to read your mind and know that you demand advance warning for taking certain arbitrary classes of units. This isn't 5th edition anymore, superheavies and flyers are part of the normal game and it's entirely your fault if you're surprised by them. And if you feel so strongly about them that you need advance warning before anyone brings them to a game against you then you have the obligation to inform them in advance and allow them to make appropriate changes to their army (or just decide you're not worth the effort).

Hey, I'm with you in terms of what I consider "normal" behaviour. A person should be able to bring whatever legit units they want, and if you have any extraordinary requests (like no FMCs or no FW Knights, or whatever), you should make those clear -- or get a sense of their army first. However, if ther's a misunderstanding, and the other person's list is too cheesy, I might decline the game, which isn't a house rule; it's just my preference. I would also decline a game of golf against a group that plays at 4 under par, because it would be a really lousy game, and I'd just slow them down horribly, and I'd decline to ski with someone who wanted to do double diamonds, because, well, I'd kill myself. I don't think any of that is bad behaviour.

You probably didn't see my post in the other thread, but it's not all that different from the other person showing up with 2000 points of bare plastic. You'd give them a hard time; maybe some people wouldn't play with them -- I probably would, though I wouldn't be very happy about it, and would at least say something. Either way, RAW doesn't say, "models must be painted", so the other person isn't breaking any rules, or using an illegitimate model. They're just doing something that diminishes your enjoyment of 40k, and in my mind, if they do so, it's not within the realm of bad ettiquette to point it out (and potentially decline).