Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Amayasu wrote:
Because every gaming system on the planet has a negative and vocal minority. And a minority scales with the size of the player base.

40k has many, many vocal players... because it has many many many many many players, the majority of which are very happy with the game and the experience of playing it.

The same is true for WoW. CoD. Warmachine. Magic the Gathering. etc etc.

The reality is that the vast majority of 40k players enjoy the setting, like the models, enjoy the painting and play friendly games that don't cheese.

GW are a creative, interesting company who work hard on their games. Are they perfect? Not in the slightest. But then no gaming system is. Complex game systems are difficult to balance. Especially one of this scale.

They clearly do not work hard on their games. It's pretty obvious that they're not even trying to balance it at this point. If it seemed like there was an effort to balance the game (as in, a strong codex being redone weaker, not stronger still such as Eldar, and other Codexes consistently being sub par, ala Dark Angels), the 'complex games are difficult to balance' argument might hold water, but when game balance gets worse with each release, it's pretty clear they're just awful at writing rules. I mean cmon they've been doing it for 30 years, they should've figured it out by now. Other companies have in 5-10 years.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Amayasu wrote:
Because every gaming system on the planet has a negative and vocal minority. And a minority scales with the size of the player base.

40k has many, many vocal players... because it has many many many many many players, the majority of which are very happy with the game and the experience of playing it.

The same is true for WoW. CoD. Warmachine. Magic the Gathering. etc etc.

The reality is that the vast majority of 40k players enjoy the setting, like the models, enjoy the painting and play friendly games that don't cheese.

GW are a creative, interesting company who work hard on their games. Are they perfect? Not in the slightest. But then no gaming system is. Complex game systems are difficult to balance. Especially one of this scale.

They clearly do not work hard on their games. It's pretty obvious that they're not even trying to balance it at this point. If it seemed like there was an effort to balance the game (as in, a strong codex being redone weaker, not stronger still such as Eldar, and other Codexes consistently being sub par, ala Dark Angels), the 'complex games are difficult to balance' argument might hold water, but when game balance gets worse with each release, it's pretty clear they're just awful at writing rules. I mean cmon they've been doing it for 30 years, they should've figured it out by now. Other companies have in 5-10 years.

Why would they bother trying to balance it? People keeping buying regardless. Unhappy chumps still handing over the cash for a background they once loved.

The sad reality.

From what I can tell it's mainly because they are entrenched from years of essentially a monopoly. So there's a 40k community that sticks around as people don't look at other games for a variety of reasons (usually something related to quality or aesthetics by which they usually mean "It's not identical to 40k") and because people play 40k, people interested in starting wargaming have to play 40k.

For instance, there's a solid 40k community in my area. There's also some Warmachine communities (and maybe others, not sure) but they're much smaller and the "largest" community is still 40k. So someone in that area is likely to pick up 40k just because if they ask what miniatures games go on, the answer is 40k and if they were thinking of Warmachine or whatever they'd get a "Nope, not here" answer.

GW doesn't care about balance, they only care about money. Every new codex is more powerful than the last one, so that they keep selling that army. And they don't understand what makes 40K unique and interesting.

... this has been a common accusation back in the day of 2nd edition (this was before the internet was really a thing, so I can only speak about local gamers). A very vocal minority. Some quit after RT, others never bought anything by GW/Citadel, and others still bought their stuff.

I myself quit some time later, around the time 3rd edition hit. Now I'm back at it, along with a few of my friends, and we're having a blast. All that doom & gloom is just business as usual, as far as I'm concerned. It never was any different.

Amayasu wrote:
Complex game systems are difficult to balance. Especially one of this scale.

They're especially difficult to balance when you make absolutely no effort to do so, then tell anyone who asks for balance that they're having fun wrong and if they don't like it, they should fix the $135+ rules system themselves.

GW does some pretty lousy stuff, despite what some posters say about how they are unfairly characterized.

They tried to destroy a children's book because it used the words "Space Marine" in the title, they spent their time litigating every third-part bits maker out of the market until one of them (CHS) had enough support to actually defend themselves, and then GW got really messy- they made claims of ownership for every concept under the sun, from Roman numerals and fur on shoulder pads to space marines, power armor, you name it. They got caught trying to get authors to sign off ownership of things GW never actually acquired. In the end, it turned out that their claims barely had any merit (because it IS entirely legal to sell third-party accessories, GW just couldn't take that someone else was getting a piece of the pie). And on top of it all, during the trial themanagement made continuous disparaging remarks about their customers, touting how we all buy for the thrilling hobby of "purchasing Citadel miniatures."

Beyond their affairs outside of the game, inside is a mess as well. There has been a concerning trend of accelerating rule cycles to the point where the last core rule set was shorted by two years. They moved over to hardback versions of the army books and people thought that was so they could get everything solid for a time, but they've already gone and invalidated the hardback Eldar book, so that wasn't right.

The army books are all over the place. Some are more reasonable, others like this Eldar book blow everything out of the water. This has the effect of keeping the game so out-of-balance they people are always clamoring for new rules, even if there is never an intention of new rules actually fixing anything.

GW has been the juggernaut of the industry for many years. Its business practices were sometimes questionable in the past, but it has a captivating story and the best models around. These last five years, these attributes are starting to become less absolute, and the amount required to play 40k is becoming grossly excessive for a lot of people.

Time will tell what ends up happening to 40k, but if WHFB is anything to go by, the game might not be as universal and it once appeared to be.

It's quite funny this "vocal minority" argument. I've yet to see any evidence from the people spouting it so emphatically.

Given GW's relatively recent financial reports, we can see it's pretty much kept afloat simply by its bulk and its name. They've had to raise prices and cut assets, both signs that they're not moving as much product as they used to. If their customer base has increased, then that's not exactly a good sign. Unfortunately for GW, it is in decline, no matter how much the faithful wish to deny it.

To answer your question OP, GW lives because it's big, and there are enough naysayers and people that just don't care how GW treats them pumping their money into the problem to make it not die.

My bet would be that in two or three years these same people defending GW will be turning their backs on it too. If GW had its way, that would happen sooner rather than later.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It's quite funny this "vocal minority" argument. I've yet to see any evidence from the people spouting it so emphatically.

People who spout that the active hence vocal users on the internet make up a majority of wargamers on a global scale are even quite funnier.

Some good points were made , but to me it's basically the unique IP and artstyle, not to mention the quality of the models....except for the odd comic relief pg13 models, but you always have forgeworld to offer appropriately grimdark versions for that.

I would start other games, but none of them appeal to me in the setting and style quite like 40k. If somebody made a skirmish game of 40k, like malifaux/inifinty etc, then I would pick that up wihtout a second thought.

Stockholm Syndrome.

 Runic wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It's quite funny this "vocal minority" argument. I've yet to see any evidence from the people spouting it so emphatically.

People who spout that the active hence vocal users on the internet make up a majority of wargamers on a global scale are even quite funnier.

Prove me wrong.

Vocal minority makes things seem worse than they are. People like me are taking 40k for what it is, an over-the-top super tech game where we do extremely rude things to eachothers models, and have fun doing so.

Also, IMO at least, 40k has no viable competitors with model ranges for they type of game it is. WM seems to be the most popular competitor, bust streampunk is a very niche aesthetic, the models at least look more CC oriented with very limited shooty options, and the Hordes side of things looks more fantasy than super tech, to me at least.

The X wing game is popular in my area, but obviously a very different type of game.

Locally, theres a large market amongst people in my age group for historicals, but again a very different type of game, and a different market where viable models can be had from numerous suppliers, some of which are very reasonably priced, even cheap.

To me, one of GWs blindspots is catering to young people. I suppose that the starter sets are good values, but they typically throw some of the worst unit options in them, so when Johnny takes his models to the FLGS he'll tend to get stomped, and tell his mom and dad he needs more and more money to build a viable army. For non-rich parents , or those who don't want to spoil their children with lavish luxury expenditures, this game is a no-go. And if kids aren't playingn the game, GW won't be able to cash in on nostalgia or continuance of an ongoing hobby from childhood into adulthoid, and will have to try to grab new adult customers some other way.

Also, they could do alot for themselves by developing some halfway decent video games. Maybe there are some decent games, but everything I've seen has been horriblwe.

Pretty much every game Relic pushed out was great. Too bad they're gone now. All GW is releasing now is mobile junk, and I'm not exactly looking forward to eternal crusade.

MarsNZ wrote:
As a new player it's probably best to stay away from websites like this one. The (very) vocal minority who decries literally everything the 'Evil Empire' does is the height of tedium yet they are a tireless bunch and some mods even jump in on it, so it's here to stay unfortunately.

Well, to be completely fair, it's the pro-GW side that tends to get threads locked. I won't name anyone, but if you go through threads where the text was removed, it seems to be the same few offenders. If I see them frequently posting in a thread I know it's going to get closed quite soon

I am not buying the vocal minority argument either. In some companies, there are clearly a vocal minority. Blizzard and CoD are perhaps the biggest examples, perhaps the madden games too. These companies/games tend to have a large player base that grows every time something is released, so it's easy to say that the people complaining about the game is a minority.

However, with GW, this is not the case. With costs up for models and profits down, the most obvious logical conclusion is that less sales are being made. (You could argue they make a lot less per model then they use to, but I don't see how that is possible). Less sales doesn't mean less players, a lot of people own models from earlier editions and only buy new codexes, but it is a downward trend that has recently started, so it's easy to make that statement.


As to how they stay in the game, they are the only large sci-fi game that caters to a large variety of tastes.

Warmachine is steam punk, which isn't sci-fi. It also isn't a collector's game, it is a war gamer's game. It's why you see it put out as an example of a superior game. Outside of prices, the biggest problem with GW is that the rules are terrible. Warmachine fixes the pricing problem from a war gamers view point (armies are cheaper to field) and has a much better collection of rules.

X-wing is sci-fi but it's not armies, it's starships. There are people who seem really into starships, but I don't know many.

I can go on comparing model companies and games, but you'll find that other companies either cater to the wargaming crowd or the collector's, not both. GW has issues because of the price, terrible rules, and their inability to cultivate a playerbase (warmachine's press gangers, for example).

The part that always get me is the "no other company makes models as good as GW".

If you haven't even bothered to give a look at other companies' models, don't go around making these kind of absolute statements. Because as much as I think some of the plastic kits GW has released in recent years are truly neat and a pleasure to assemble and paint, in the overall scheme of things I believe they're actually falling behind the competition when it comes to quality (and don't even get me started on the quality/price issue).

This is probably more evident in regards to fantasy miniatures, and I'd bet something it's one of the reasons they're probably going to get rid of Fantasy as we know it, but even in the sci-fi range other companies are currently releasing models that are as good or even better than GW and (usually) at a fraction of the price.

As for the OP question, it's already been answered so I won't get into detail: for a long time GW has been the huge fish in the tiny pool. Their problem right now is they're steadily losing weight, while the pool is getting bigger and bigger, and the competition stronger.

 Toofast wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:
Mainly because all of this negativity is a very, very vocal minority. Plenty of people are playing 40k and having a blast. Same logic as how a lot of people won't write a good review for a restaurant, but if they feel the need to write a bad review they shout it from the rooftops.

It may be a minority, but it's a large enough minority to cause GWs revenue to drop every year the past 5+ years. 49% is still a minority, but if 49% of your customers are unhappy, it isn't magically less of a problem than if 51% of your customers were unhappy. The "vocal minority" excuse gets thrown around almost as much as "forge the narrative" and "beer and pretzels", it's also just as poor of an argument.

100% agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Stockholm Syndrome.

Basically. put 5k-10k into a game and you become a prisoner. Glad I've taken on painting - now I can sell my stuff and maybe move onto something else.

Most other companies who's models are as good as - or better than - GW are much, much less modifiable/kitbashable.

At the end of the day, GW really does put out some really nice kits.

I put in a bit over 1800 and I am one. I just though about how long did I have fun with the army I bought. And it was more or less 2 years. For the same cash I could buy a new PC or keep buying books for 10 years every month, and still have left over money.

 Runic wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It's quite funny this "vocal minority" argument. I've yet to see any evidence from the people spouting it so emphatically.

People who spout that the active hence vocal users on the internet make up a majority of wargamers on a global scale are even quite funnier.

In my experience most 40k gamers know that there are serious problems with the game. I have met like 3 people who deny anything is wrong. Most of them just chug along anyway because they enjoy the game despite its problems.

There is a vocal minority. The vocal minority who stick up for GW no matter what they do. The vocal minority who can't differentiate between GW and 40k. The vocal minority who refuse to engage in rational debate and instead revert to insults.

And they are a vocal minority as any poll in recent times has shown.
The majority who like 40k in some form, be it the gaming, the modelling or the fluff actually accept that GW is a very poor company when it comes to rules designs, pricing and community relations/public relations.

 Toofast wrote:
they should fix the $135+ rules system themselves.

I did. Nobody wanted to play it.

That has nothing to do with the game though. My group for one will sooner play with the official rules of any game than pick up fan made rules. We only house rule when we absolutely have to.

There are bulletin board posts from the beginning of (internet) time decrying GW's rubbish business practices and forseeing their demise

The arguments are all exactly the same.

 Flinty wrote:
There are bulletin board posts from the beginning of (internet) time decrying GW's rubbish business practices and forseeing their demise

The arguments are all exactly the same.

"It hasn't happened yet so it won't happen" isn't a strong argument. "I haven't gotten the flu yet, so I must be immune!"
Look at their financial reports compared to business practices and you'd get a clearer picture.

To answer the op...

It is the psychology of elitism. It is the same reason that some people clamour to pay $20,000 us for a gaudy/ugly handbag or a ridiculous amount of money for shoes with a red sole.

People with more money than brains will line up and demand to be overcharged for an average or even low quality product if that product is "perceived" as the "elite" product of its type.

Such individuals want to, not only be a part of the crowd, but perceived as superior to the rest of the group. They do this by showing that they can afford to waste money in such a manner(whether they really can afford to or not).

Also, recent sales and financials do show a steady erosion of GW's customer base. The company is primarily surviving on the fact that they have a huge well of cash from years of overcharging their customers. And........

Imo, they won't change. The exec's know that the type of model making business as GW is will soon be obsolete(if not already). The Board of directors is most likely going to price gouge and ride the current system into a bankruptcy nose dive and will then deploy their golden parachutes just in time for their retirement.

Because the setting is awesome.

 Melissia wrote:
Because the setting is awesome.

There are books and RPG's to satisfy that. The game is still garbage.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Because the setting is awesome.

There are books and RPG's to satisfy that. The game is still garbage.

And yet the game remains the most popular of the tabletop wargames.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Because the setting is awesome.

There are books and RPG's to satisfy that. The game is still garbage.

And yet the game remains the most popular of the tabletop wargames.

Not from quality of rules.
Also, look at their declining sales. Something else is going on.