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 Peregrine wrote:
I want them to fail, and the sooner the better. The IP is too valuable to be abandoned completely, and there's really nowhere to go but up from here.

if you really belive that, you sir are remarkably optimistic.

the IP could certinly be abandoned, or picked up by someone even worse.
Maybe someone whom rather then make the game we all know and love instead decides to make a cheap CMG that they abandon after a few years of milking for profit while raping the setting?

Some people want GW to go down so that someone else can pick up the IP, but really I don't think there's much chance of that ending well. I think GW will drag the game down with them in a slow and drawn out process, doing irreparable harm to the community and the game After that there's a good chance the IP will not be picked up or picked up by someone who's not going to do it justice anyway.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some people want GW to go down so that someone else can pick up the IP, but really I don't think there's much chance of that ending well. I think GW will drag the game down with them in a slow and drawn out process, doing irreparable harm to the community and the game After that there's a good chance the IP will not be picked up or picked up by someone who's not going to do it justice anyway.

yeah I remember what happened when FASA closed, Wizkids aquired the rights to mechwarrior, produced their CMG for a bit (which used the same system as all their other games thus quickly fell outta favor for hero cliz) , where bought out by Topps and pretty much abandoned. the classic game is now produced under lisence sure, but it's a far way away from it's glory days

Do I want GW to fail? Most certainly not - most of their stuff is great.
Do I want to see fundamental change in their business model? Emphatically yes.
Sadly, the only way this is likely to happen is when the company is aquired by the likes of Hasbro. The present board will never be changed whilst they are paying shareholders such over-generous dividends. A strategy which is of course draining vital lifeblood from the company, and hastening the takeover.

I do not really mind either way. I do know that I want the game to still be around, but I do not very much care if it GW own their game or if they are bought out by Hasbro, or whatever. I think GW will fail in the long run if they do not adjust their current strategy.

In a time where most niched hobby companies move toward relationship oriented marketing strategies, GW keeps going into the other direction, to a purely transaction focused strategy. They cut all communication to their customers, beside their own magazine which is basically a sales catalogue showcasing and promoting new products.

Do they need to have two way communication with their customers via social media or forums? Yes, people interested in video games, role playing games, miniature games etc. are used to be allowed limited access to the design team where representatives of the company can explain and put developments of the product into a context. Instead GW chooses to act like they are a company selling something generic in a market that looks like it did 15-20 years ago. Only the short term sale of shiny thing to customer matters.

If you visit a store, the people working there generally like the game and you can talk to them about whatever. Yet they are defiantly uneasy if you hint at balance problems or as in the rules. And they constant try to get you buy something you did not come to the store for, white dwarf, some apocalypse book or whatever.

But do they need to communicate with customers? Yes, the lack of communication leads to strife, confusion and discontent amongst their customers. Us, the customers, are used that companies who deal with high engagement products are accessible which adds to the dissatisfaction when GW acts like the odd fish in the pond.

I want GW to start explaining their actions, justify design decisions and patch things in a reasonable time frame if they turn out to not work out. Having a codex or product line be the uncontestdly best one for years while others are barely playable is in itself a poor idea.

In the end, I have not looked into their financial situation, but I doubt they face any immediate threat of bankruptcy. However, I do believe their marketing strategy is outdated and untenable in the long run and has to be adjusted if they wish to keep going. As a customer, I do not particularly care someone buys their company or if they adjust themselves. I do want it to happen sooner rather than later, though.

Not at all.

I think some people that want a different company buying the IP mentioned better/ more advertising among the reasons but that would inevitably lead to a more polticaly correct and even more kid friendly content. Not to mention I hear FFG a lot as a proposition but I cringe reading dark heresy rulebook, the artwork actualy puts me off 40k (except the gw ones there ofc), the best art there is on par with the worst in GW codieces imo. I like FFG some of my favourite boardgames are theirs and their style was great for dust tactics (though the rules werent much better or more balanced than 40k imo even when it was 2 factions only and despite using a grid) but I surely dont want them as a main creative force behind 40k.

Rules you can just stop using them, like I did for 7th. I stopped playing pickup games and play 5th or 6th with friend as a filler before I find an alternate ruleset or write my own. Sucks a bit yes but the regular flow of new plastic models is imo more important and GW has been great lately, no tauroxes or heldrakey crap just good designs.

Not to mention that GW rules suck but are still playable and if they cross the line, some new standard will emerge. Too many people play the game, it could even be healthy maybe to let GW live with their collector company delusions and let people create or convert the rules. Or GW outsourcing just rules to someone else that would be perfect but it's more daydreaming heh.

I want GW to retire Tom Kirby before his manic rule destroys any chance of recovery GW may have.

Let the game developers ACTUALLY develop games, rather than be an extension of the short term focused sales department.
look at the long view.
Inspire people to buy, then support them so they want to stay !

If GW are JUST a minature company great!
STOP selling rules and codex books, cut the retail chain, and stock the shelves of independent retailers with a good range of competitively priced minatures.
(Maybe so collectors edition source books for hobby inspiration, instead of the codex books/rules?)

If GW are a games company , who want to supply all games related products great!
Write good rules that add value to the product range and retain players.

Currently the short term sales focus and obvious money grabs,coupled with poor quality publications is alienating masses of potential customers.
The minatires are not as good value as they could be to be more competitive.

Higher volume sales allows lower prices and higher profits.
(Plastic manufacture is geared up to mazximize the profits of high volume sales.)

I don't want them to fail, I've been playing this game for nearly twenty years... although not much recently. As some have said, I just want them to work on producing a game that works.

I want to be able to play any army from my codex with any army from another codex against someone of equal skill, and have a fair chance of winning. I don't want to annihilate their army, nor do I want to have my army annihilated.

These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

 rustproof wrote:
These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

...that have watched the money in their bank accounts pile up while screwing over their customer base. In the case of a buyout, they could afford to move wherever their job took them. Anyone high enough in the company to move to GW HQ from far away will do fairly well in the case of a large buyout.

i doubt most these backseat corporate leaders would make things better over at GW.

GW is taking a wildly different approach right now with mini dexes, alliances, introducing new factions and units, updating codexes rapidly, etc. most of these are interesting ideas, some could be great ideas. the problem is not a lack of change or innovation, it is quality control.

GW probably has a pretty good idea of how price effects sales, just like any business. They are supporting themselves on a small, specialized and shrinking audience, and they will probably have to keep pricing out the casual gamer; because the casual gamer is not and never again will be interested in Warhammer. In the 90's sure, but not now. You could charge $10 for 10 models and I honestly doubt you would see much of a sales jump; and you would see a massive profit drop. This is about a massive demographic shift in gaming; one that is not going to reverse no matter what GW does. Gamers play computer games, they don't model.

As to rules - GW has always had wonky rules. The other game companies have wonky rules. GW does need to work on these, but it's more because they are catering to a small, specialized audience. Back when it was a beer and pretzels game the wonky rules didn't matter so much. Now it is more of a fine wine and expensive cheeses game; and it needs to reflect that. It's audience is old men who grouse on message boards nowadays, not kids who think spikey models are awesome. They need to come to terms with this change. So do the players.

Or GW needs to shift over to some kind of computer based gaming system. I suspect they eventually will any way - or some other company will buy them out and do it for them.

This discussion comes up so often that what really surprises me is that GW is still there at all.

As many gamers have (rightly) commentated we are living in an unparalleled golden age of choice and quality in tabletop gaming.

Corvus Belli (Infinity)
Wyrd Miniatures (Malifaux)
Megalith Games (Godslayer)
Spartan Games (Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions, Halo)
Privateer Press (Warmachine, Hordes)
Fantasy Flight Games (X-Wing, Star Wars Armada)
Mantic Games (Kings of War, Dwarf King's Hold, Warpath, Deadzone, Mars Attacks)
Hawk Wargames (Dropzone Commander)
GCT Studios (Bushido)

That's just a few off the top of my head. Games Workshop is destined to fail because it hasn't seen the writing on the wall for some considerable time now.

Gamers have more choice than ever before, suiting every setting, scale and budget but they keep doubling down on the same mistakes.

1.Set the price of minis at a comparable level to skirmish game pieces, but market them for a mass battle game.
2. Constantly increase the number of models required thus either overcrowding the play area of forcing people to have impractibly large gaming tables. If you want epic battles, you need smaller miniatures (you know, like in 'Epic' )
3. Constantly retcon the background (and make it generally sillier in each iteration), did they not notice the backlash to the Star Wars prequels? If it ain't broke don't fix it!
4. Persist in writing poor and unbalanced rules, assuming that their customers won't notice, at a time when thanks to the internet there is more awareness and analysis than ever.
5. Refuse to interact with their customers in the defining age of social media.

If GW disappeared up it's own fundamental orifice tomorrow huge swathes of the gaming community would barely bat an eyelid and those that did shed a tear would swiftly find new (and better) sources for their own plasticrack addiction.

Despite all the above I still believe GW is salvageable, but time is running out and unless there is the kind of shift in attitude that has been noticeable by its absence in the last decade, they will fall.

And they will not be missed...

I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

"Steve, didn't you have an Eldar army at some point."
"What of it? I'm playing Dark Angels now."
"Well, it says here in the rules that if you have had an Eldar army, you only get 40% of the points allowance... and we get to punch you in the dick."

 Purifier wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

"Steve, didn't you have an Eldar army at some point."
"What of it? I'm playing Dark Angels now."
"Well, it says here in the rules that if you have had an Eldar army, you only get 40% of the points allowance... and we get to punch you in the dick."

Exactly

 Talys wrote:
No. I just want them to crank out nice models, which they're doing.

No matter what they do with the game, my friends and I will continue to have fun playing 40k; there's literally nothing they can do to wreck the gaming component for us, because at worst, if they came out with 8e that said, "Flip a coin, and the person who calls it wins", we'd just ignore it and do our own thing. Having played 40k and many dozens of RPGs and board games since the 80's we've just gotten used to essentially changing anything we don't like to something we like better, by consensus.

The one thing GW does uniquely is churn out Scifi armies in a aesthetic that I like, and at a rate exceeding my paintbrush and modelling ability, and while the model's aren't exactly cheap, they're within my budget. That's all it really takes to make me happy

Yeah agree with this, though Peregrine's post is valid also!

 Hollowman wrote:
GW is taking a wildly different approach right now with mini dexes, alliances, introducing new factions and units, updating codexes rapidly, etc. most of these are interesting ideas, some could be great ideas. the problem is not a lack of change or innovation, it is quality control.

I very much disagree. The only change and innovation they can come up with is "we are losing sales and need to release more stuff for 40k!"

Mini codices, making allies standard, sub factions and a rapid release cycle.... none of these are terribly innovative things.

They've also really lacked the drive or ability to push their IP in to other markets. The DOW games were hugely popular but GW made little to no effort to capitalise on that popularity. They could have expanded on it more, had tie ins with the table top game, released board games or starter sets that revolved around it, lots of stuff they COULD have done but just sat on their hands. Now they're just selling their IP cheaply to little developers to make some quick cash instead of genuinely trying to grow the IP.

They've culled Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic and so on. They've culled their events right back. They've just narrowed themselves to milking the main 40k game for all it's worth.

I want to see them make a return to how they were in early 2000s. A welcoming place, being about the hobby of gaming and modeling, not the hhhobby of buying GW models.

Toss Kirby and bring on leadership that will work.

 Talys wrote:

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

Actually,

NES games were about $50 USD in 1985, a PS4 game is about $60 USD. Even the NES in 2013 dollars would be $434.69 USD. When you consider that the games will end up being the majority of money spent, Video Games have probably failed to keep up with inflation.

Long answer short. No. I do not want GW to fail. My opinion is that currently, if GW fell under, it would drag over months, years perhaps, destroying GW's reputation for mini gaming, and perhaps wrecking the game to a point where the IP is irreparable.

Whilst I agree that GW must improve their rules, you do need to remember what GW and White Dwarf passed on. They don't get paid for rules. They get paid for minis. It makes sense to make books and formations that sell minis. But again, its at the expense of the average gamer, and we need to reinforce that to them.

I think people forget the number of reprehensible things GWhas done in its current era, things that I doubt anyone would have a good defense for, including:

- Suing a children's book author for the use of the term "Space Marine," and trying to claim they had originated that concept
- Suing any third party component producer (a legal process, look at cell phones for a good example), and destroying them all by sheer weight until they got to CHS with its pro-Bono defense.
- In the court case, claiming ownership of things they never owned, while trying to cover up that the were contacting the owners to try to get them to sign over the rights.
- Again in the case, suing CHS over concepts they thought they owned, such as fur and Roman numerals on shoulder pads. Claiming all of their developers' concepts originated out of their imagination with no outside inspiration.
- A number of other under-handed decisions during the case, and the clear showing of the management's opinion of its customers as "collectors engaged in the hobby of purchasing Citadel miniatures." I could write another page about CHS alone!
- Gutting all of their Specialist Games- not stopping them from being produced per say, but taking away access to rules in attempt to force everyone in 40k or WFHB
- Sending cease-and-decists to people who manage 40k fan sites because they showed upcoming content early and GW thinks they're Apple
- Gutting out the entire mid-management, leaving only the top and the "managers" in the stores, who are given unrealistic goals and then replaced if they cannot attain them.
- Recycling their rules at an increasingly faster rate, raising the cost of gaming aids in order to maximize revenue without producing goods of significant value, just transient books that will be replaced in a year or two.

GW has become a bit like Scientology in its management, the upper core removing anything that could question or threaten them in the goal of ultimate power. You can argue against a couple of lines in the text above, but I sincerely doubt anyone can honestly argue that at least half of those are deplorable.

I just don't want to support a company that has such a bad track record, and being just a miniatures company, that isn't exceedingly difficult. Maybe GW's management could one-day be replaced if the company were to continue to shudder profit, and you at least perhaps see something that at least isn't so damn vindictive arise.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

Actually,

NES games were about $50 USD in 1985, a PS4 game is about $60 USD. Even the NES in 2013 dollars would be $434.69 USD. When you consider that the games will end up being the majority of money spent, Video Games have probably failed to keep up with inflation.

A quick googling tells me that movie ticket prices have apparently been quite constant over the years when you correct for inflation.

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

A worthy endeavour! First exalt in my life.

Make them grow ponytails, glue special edition 200£ pound red plastic stones to their foreheads and dance the wardance while having a huge bisexual man on viagra impersonating Slaneesh behind their backs waiting for a tiniest mistake, each game. Make them glue their models with GW plastic glue and remove mold lines with GW tool. Make them subscribe Warhammer Visions.

On the other hand, the codex they've just got is kind of punishment too, imagine loosing with it - the shame, the sneery eyes, the barely hidden smiles and meaningful handshakes. Packing the models would take forever, shaking hands breaking scatter lasers between wraithknight legs, then the walk to the shop exit like the Way of the Cross and finaly home for the ultimate realisation that not only you're alone in the universe but also have nothing to make up for it anymore.

<All in jest>

No. GW is awesome.

No, I would like to see a few things change however.

I would like to see more codices balanced against each other, which we were seeing for awhile, then the Necros/Eldar + new formations blew that out of the water. Making armies have interesting character, without making them grossly overpowered is tough, so spend the time and stop spamming us with new codices.

I would like the codices to be cheaper. $60 for a thin hardcover, which doesn't need to be a hardcover, filled mostly with picture and bad stories, greatly angers me. That and the layouts are terrible.
E-rules that cost as much as physical ones, E-only rules that cost $15 for a page of rules, are an abomination.

Get rid of dual kits, like the hive crone/harpy kits. Not kits with a few alternate weapons. Paying extra money for a bunch of bits that are pretty much useless really annoys me. If you make good rules for every unit, so we have reasons to want to field each unit every now and again, will get you more sales then making dual kits that people basically only build one of, since the other variant is nearly useless.

Glad to see White Dwarf becoming a bit more of what it was, a magazine which supported the game, not just ad space for their newest products and how they paint them. But they need to do more in terms of rules/battle reports. Still, much better then it was a few years ago.

Forgeworld, put rules for your models in with your kits. Having to buy a book from overseas just to field a model is vastly frustrating.

Better written rules with examples.

FAQs and errata, even an old man like myself uses the internet, no reason to be shy about fixing/explaining problems (looking straight at the volatile rule for pyrovores). And being responsive to problems the community find (or at least saying why you choose not to change something) would at least give your customers the idea that you value the game, and not just our pocketbooks.

Everything is awesome, Tom Business can do no wrong.

 Chimera_Calvin wrote:
This discussion comes up so often that what really surprises me is that GW is still there at all.

As many gamers have (rightly) commentated we are living in an unparalleled golden age of choice and quality in tabletop gaming.

Corvus Belli (Infinity)
Wyrd Miniatures (Malifaux)
Megalith Games (Godslayer)
Spartan Games (Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions, Halo)
Privateer Press (Warmachine, Hordes)
Fantasy Flight Games (X-Wing, Star Wars Armada)
Mantic Games (Kings of War, Dwarf King's Hold, Warpath, Deadzone, Mars Attacks)
Hawk Wargames (Dropzone Commander)
GCT Studios (Bushido)

That's just a few off the top of my head. Games Workshop is destined to fail because it hasn't seen the writing on the wall for some considerable time now.

Gamers have more choice than ever before, suiting every setting, scale and budget but they keep doubling down on the same mistakes.

And the greatest irony of all, is that many of those choices in other scales and genres exist and flourish because GW abandoned their own matching games. Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, etc., if still around and actively supported by GW, would have prevented many of those other games and companies from flourishing. There are still small companies whose primary business is to produce alternative fantasy football models for Blood Bowl, a game GW no longer supports, and yet money is still changing hands for it (just not GW's hands anymore).

I don't want them to fail. I want them to change.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

When I say new CEO I mean like fresh blood for the company, not some guy who was already pretty close with the old CEO