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Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?

 Ustis wrote:
Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?

Camo nets/their guns having little shields for the men to hide behind/digging in in general, basically.

Just make things work properly.

1. Make it so Leman Russ' aren't gimped by the Ordnance rules.
2. Hydras need Interceptor.
3. #lolroughriders
4. Make the Basilisk relevant. Remove its minimum range? Allow it to dual-role AA and AT like the German 88?
5. #derpratlings
6. Price drop on Scions.

On a selfish note, a Sentinel Recon Talon formation and a Steel Legion mechanized formation would be boss. I loves me some sentinels and Chimeras!

Rihgu wrote:

 Ustis wrote:
Not trying to be rude, but can a heavy weapons team be stealthy if they are firing an gun as loud as thunderclap? I mean what is the theory behind their stealth?

Camo nets/their guns having little shields for the men to hide behind/digging in in general, basically.

Yeah I suppose but the HWT would have to remain stationary for it work in theory and on the tabletop. Probably not camo nets but perhaps a sandbag like upgrade.

As far as codices go, I feel that Imperial Guard has weathered the changing times better than others, including a few 7th edition codices like poor Orks or Grey Knights. It's not top-tier by any means, but I think it can still make some solid armies. There are a lot of things I would like to change, sure, but not nearly so many things need to be changed. With that in mind I'll share some of the things I think ought to be changed to help IG compete with some of the scarier armies out there, and for now I'll spare the internet my wishlist of extras and frivolities. Note that most of my thoughts here are based on internal army workings and don't take into account allies--I typically don't like to play with allies and I feel that, while allies are a perfectly valid part of the game, a codex shouldn't *need* allies to function in the first place.

Changes needed for increased competitiveness (in some combination of the following:

-Our HQ choices (the ones that take slots) need some re-balancing or at least re-pricing. Pask's squadron is amazing and another tank HQ gives good firepower and frees up a Heavy Support slot for Wyverns or even more tanks. Everything else is just too expensive and squishy for what they do, especially the infantry characters. There really ought to be a compelling reason to take non-tank HQs and more orders isn't compelling enough, especially when our infantry blobs are fairly 'meh' in the first place.

-Something needs to be done about our Troops. Veterans are pretty much only worthwhile as transport-mounted plasma/melta guns who occasionally disembark to hide in cover next to an objective. Everything else just doesn't do enough for their points, low cost they may be. A lot of things could fix this. Certainly, just lowering points might work--though then we'll end up with Conscripts stupidly (and I mean stupidly) cheap and people will have to buy yet more plastic. Something more along the lines of letting blob squads take more gear or giving them some sort of buff (such as a regimental tactic or some other special rule), making Heavy Weapon Squads cheaper/somehow more attractive, or giving Special Weapon Squads access to their own transports might make for some more viable builds involving infantry platoons.

-Moreso than with our Troops, something desperately needs to be done about our Elites. There is nothing particularly good in this slot. Other armies usually have at least something useful in each type of slot, but we don't have anything in Elites that can do anything better for us than just taking more Troops would do. It could be a buff to Ogryns, Ratlings (lol). Psykers, or Scions. It could be a simple points decrease in one or more of those units. It could be moving something from the crowded Heavy Support slot or even the Fast Attack slot here (Armoured Sentinels come to mind. I'd also definitely take a Hydra every game if I didn't have to sacrifice a Russ). Or GW could go right for our wallets and make a new, actually useful unit.

-The internal balance is pretty bad, but our Fast Attack slot does have the tools to deal with other armies. Vendettas are great. Hellhounds can be pretty good. We just need to be able to take our dedicated transports as stand-alones so we can give them out to teams without transports and then we're brought in line with the other 7th edition FA stuff. I'm all for making other FA choices better, though.

-Our Heavy Support slot is also internally unbalanced and crowded. However, between a number of the Leman Russ variants and Wyverns I think that we have the tools to compete (though it pains me to not say that a revival of Lumbering Behemoth is necessary). Our tanks do their jobs well, I feel, the main problem is that the units supporting them (namely Troops) tend to be lacklustre. And since they suffer, our Heavy Support suffers. Not sure that much needs to be changed here to 'fix' us when it comes to going head to head with the stronger armies.

-We may or may not *need* a super heavy tank. We'll definitely get one. We'll probably get a few--one will probably even be worth taking.

Side armor upgrade for vehicles. +1AV for 10p maybe. Good for Chimeras..

I'd just like to be able to pay a 5 to 10 point flat cost across the board (depending on # of models, or wounds rather, in the squad; PCS = 5 Pts.; HWT/SWT = 6 Pts; Infantry Squad = 10 Pts.) per infantry platoon to have Carapace armor on my troopers. I think it's silly that I can't get carapace across the board unless I run all Veterans. Some regiments (such as Vostroyans) all wear carapace armor and I'd like to be able to run a regular infantry platoon without having the saves be different from the Grenadier Veteran squads I typically run.

They're BS:3 guardsmen, charging an extra point per wound in the squad to give them +1 save seems fair when it's about 1.5 points per wound to give BS:4 Veteran Guardsmen the same upgrade.

Similarly, i'd love to see Infantry Platoons be able to purchase Camo Cloaks as well for the same upgrade cost I listed above for Carapace. No Snare Mines though, as that should be a benefit of the Veteran Doctrine you get as an added bonus to purchasing Forward Sentries for your vets.

Doing this would help out tremendously for different regiments actually feeling different, and allow people to really represent a lot of different regiments quite nicely.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Kanluwen wrote:

Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.

Kanluwen wrote:
I never said I don't want Chimeras or Taurox for Platoons. I said that I want them as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS--not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports" like we have been seeing(where vehicles have two entries).

Valkyries? Absolutely not as Dedicated Transports for Platoons. Command Squads, Veteran Squads, and Stormtrooper Squads.
While we're at it--Command Vehicle upgrade for Valkyries.

Why not for Platoons? It makes perfect sense and hardly breaks the game.

This isn't Space Marines. They don't need "mission specialist vehicles with transport capabilities".

No, it isn't the Space Marines. Its the Guard, we don't have fancy gimmicky gak - we need out upgunned aircraft to keep pace! Are you sure you play Guard? You sure seem to doubt that the poor boys on the ground need enough support to keep them alive.

Except it's not a case of Techmarines or Tech-Priests fiddling with the thing and "mending and making do".

The Vendetta was literally made up and pretended to exist this entire time, same as the Taurox and any number of things which people constantly whine about.

If thats how you want to pretend things are, I guess thats up to you.

Other than the fact that the continued existence of the Vendetta means no Vulture for the Codex, right?

Seriously. I've asked several times and been told that "With the adaptability of the Valkyrie and Vendetta, there is no reason for the Vulture Gunship to be placed into the main Codex."

But the Vulture is in the codex, as of Imperial Aeronautica. But then, I guess I live in an entirely different world to you - I run my guard out of IA3se wholesale so I really don't see what the point of whining about having to own two books is about.

Problem with guard is that the power creep in 40k has caused foot slogging infantry to be utterly useless. But you just can't buff their stat line because they are only human after all.

I don't think its a good idea to give all infantry access to camo cloaks or carapace like someone suggested. Everyone would proxy that crap like they do with netting on their tanks. It's cheesy and doesn't properly illustrate the army.

- give them access to medics for infantry platoons? Giving a blob fnp would add surviveability and keep the feel.

- some buffed up orders would be great. Guard is really weak to flying circus armies, so maybe a sky fire order. Also, why can't a tank commander have the ignore cover order? I mean Tau can abuse it with anything in their army.

- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.

- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.

bob82ca wrote:


- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.

How are Baneblades cheese?

bob82ca wrote:
- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.

You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse

bob82ca wrote:
Problem with guard is that the power creep in 40k has caused foot slogging infantry to be utterly useless. But you just can't buff their stat line because they are only human after all.

I don't think its a good idea to give all infantry access to camo cloaks or carapace like someone suggested. Everyone would proxy that crap like they do with netting on their tanks. It's cheesy and doesn't properly illustrate the army.

- give them access to medics for infantry platoons? Giving a blob fnp would add surviveability and keep the feel.

- some buffed up orders would be great. Guard is really weak to flying circus armies, so maybe a sky fire order. Also, why can't a tank commander have the ignore cover order? I mean Tau can abuse it with anything in their army.

- my prediction is that they will have the bane blade variants in the codex. Much like the ork codex has the stompa. So if you're playing Eldar/tau you could just break out your bane blade and fight cheese with cheese.

- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.

That someone who suggested it was me, and you can easily represent carapace armor and cloaks using third party miniatures, or better yet, get GW produce some new IG infantry upgrade sprues like they're doing for the space marines chapters that include camo cloaks on one, and carapace bits to add to the existing Cadian model range on the other. Charge 10 bucks per sprue or whatever price point is fair sounding for 10 Carapace armor upgrades or 10 camo cloaks and I'm sure people would buy them in good measure.

Also, people proxy carapace and camo cloaks already right now? How does letting an infantry platoon have access to that wargear change anything at all to the current proxying already going on with Veteran squads, except that it might increase to army wide? And if someone isn't WYSIWYG constantly, you could always refuse to play them if it bugs you that much.

Me personally, I play Vostroyans. Every mini has carapace armor on them, and I want to be able to field platoons and get the benefit of the equipment modeled onto my toy soldiers that I've painstakingly painted and enjoy playing with instead of always fielding veterans with Grenadiers (as I currently do with 95% of my lists).

I'll also second MarsNZ by saying, what about the baneblade is cheesy? It's powerful, sure, but it dies relatively fast to things like Knights, which are cheaper, and wraith guard, which are even cheaper still.

Just clarifying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I would make PCS medipacks a 6" fnp bubble, as well as platoon standards a 6" morale reroll. Both of these upgrades are useless at the moment.

I would roll all the units up into formations with the choice od 0-what ever for each entry.

So in Troops you have
Infanty platoon - as per book

Fast attack
Racon Platoon
0-3 sentinelss
0-3 Rough rider/outrider squads
0-3 Valks

Reaction Platoon
0-3 hellhounds
0-3 Vendattas
0-3 Armoured sentinels

Heavy support
Armoured Platoon
bunch of russes and stuff

Artillary platton
0-3 mortor pltoons
0-3 basalisks
0-3 Manticors

and so on and so on.

For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions

Asuo wrote:
I would roll all the units up into formations with the choice od 0-what ever for each entry.

So in Troops you have
Infanty platoon - as per book

Fast attack
Racon Platoon
0-3 sentinelss
0-3 Rough rider/outrider squads
0-3 Valks

Reaction Platoon
0-3 hellhounds
0-3 Vendattas
0-3 Armoured sentinels

Heavy support
Armoured Platoon
bunch of russes and stuff

Artillary platton
0-3 mortor pltoons
0-3 basalisks
0-3 Manticors

and so on and so on.

For little changes
- Make vets an upgrade for standard infantry squads
- Buff Standard Ogryns
- Add back in Storm troopers but make them different to scions

What is the benefit of this proposal? Just opportunity for more heavy support slot units and being able to squadron everything or?...

Formations.
If ANYONE should have formations, it's the IG.

They should have formations for everything. Formations for the artillery working together at the back with bonuses to hit for everyone because they're so good at working together.

Formations for assault squads running alongside tanks, so long as they are close to the units in their formation they should get bonuses.

etc etc etc.

I'd love to see some serious buffs to infantry - so that they're actually viable on their own, rather than just bubble-wrapping for tanks.

I think CCSs could do with more protection. For such a valuable unit, they just seem far too easy to remove.

Commissar Lords seem too expensive, and their gear costs at least twice as much as is reasonable.

Speaking of, virtually all our gear feels badly overpriced and fails to take into account the cost of the models. e.g. Why does a SM sergeant pay about 100% of his base cost for a S4 power sword, whilst our own sergeants pay 300% of their base cost just for a S3 power sword (with worse WS and I to boot?

Also, I'd like to propose that Chimeras go back to their 5th edition point costs and rules (i.e. 3 models can fire out of them). They'd already ceased to be a problem when 6th rolled around, and at this point they're just embarrassing.

I'm also hoping that the power level, externally anyways, does not continue the ramped up power creep we've experienced lately.

Internally, I hope they sort out the lemons and bring down the over performers.

I'm expecting neither of those things to happen.

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm also hoping that the power level, externally anyways, does not continue the ramped up power creep we've experienced lately.

I'm not sure that's even possible, unless they turn lasguns into mini D-weapons.

Three models firing out of a chimera would be a big help, although if you look at the size of the hatch it appears four could easily fire.
I don't think anyone else has pointed this out yet but we need to keep Pask or a similar tank commander character with some really effective rules/orders.
Or perhaps make tank commanders more customizable by allowing the purchase of tank hunter, monster hunter etc. for a reasonable price.

They should make Rough Riders T4 with W2 at minimum.

Infantry Squads should be cheaper, perhaps 40 points instead of 50 to encourage people to actually take them over Veterans. Increasing the cost of Veterans would make them too costly. Do not give Infantry Squads access to Carapace Armour though.

Make carapace 20 points instead of 15. It's very useful and is generally a must have on any veteran that ever leaves a transport.

Make krak grenades cheaper so they're worth taking over a single melta bomb.

Cheaper Chimeras and Tauroxes. Especially the Taurox Prime. Base costs on all of these needs to be reduced for sure. I look at the glorious ork trukk and wish IG Armies could take those instead.

Cheaper Commissar and Commissar Lords. There's no reason to take Commissars over Priests, nor many good reasons to take a Commissar Lord over a Company Command Squad.

Lower morale for Infantry Squads, Guardsmen probably shouldn't have leadership 7/8. Mine never run away.

10 point plasma pistols and power weapons, 15 point power fists.

An Order for Charging. Give a unit rage or +1 attack or furious charge or something like that.

Cheaper Scions that have higher rate of fire lasguns. Salvo or Assault rather than Rapid Fire.

Slightly cheaper Hellhounds

D Strength Deathstrike.

Cheaper Sentinels.

Cheaper Heavy Weapons Teams/Weapons. These guys are way too vulnerable for their points cost.

Auto Targeting rule for Hydras again. The old Hydra and the new Siege of Vraks Hydra has this rule. No jink saves for Skimmers/Fliers.

OP Pls Nerf Formations/Detachments that give huge bonuses for no reason when you take base units that you would usually take anyway.

I tend to agree with people who say our codex is not that bad. Sure, we have some stupidly priced gear and some useless Elites slots but with FW and allies shenanigans, IG is still a good match for most enemies. Albeit, some changes must be applied:

Leman Russ with LB would be something good and would make them even more scarier. That would not be too much regarding the proliferation of D weapons on the TT.

Chimeras are too fragile and not that mobile. Decrease in cost or perhaps, a little AV buff? (I know it's impossible but that would be nice).

Infantry gear like radio-voxes, CA and order mechanism must be reworked. It is impossible to wage a battle when your order range is 12''. What's the point of having man-portable radios if they can work only in such a small bubble? Ridiculous. I tend to think orders shoulb be given to any friendly unit (including vehicules) in line of sight, that would be more legit and more effective.

Increase Scions Ld to 8, since they are supposed to be cold-hearted brainwashed killing machines trained since childhood. Why a Ld equal to a random guardsman GW ? Why?

More formations and - most important thing for me - regimental doctrines !! I'll gladly exchange all my previous suggestions for a doctrine chart which allow you to choose USR for your goddamn infantry and custom your guys. Sadly, GW is not that much on a dynamic of creativity so if a new codex must be, I expect none of this would come back.

As it was previously said, expect the worst from IG codex update.

Oh and I almost forgot another impossible thing; give us back "Imperial Guard" and dump this fake Latin label.

Every infantry unit should have access to med-packs.

Conscripts, Heavy Weapon/Special Weapons teams become their own troop slots.

Leman Russ gains the lumbering behemoth rule again. Ordinance no longer causes snap shots of other weapons.

Sentinels/scout sentinels become 1-6.

Stormtroopers decreased by 15

Regiment tactocs

 vipoid wrote:


I'm not sure that's even possible, unless they turn lasguns into mini D-weapons.

Right?

Um... left?

 vipoid wrote:
Um... left?

Not an Archer fan then, eh?

Back on track, lots of good ideas.

As controversial as Kan's Vendetta/Valk proposal was, I kind of agree. Let gunships be gunships and let the transports be transports. Give the Vulture the option for a bunch of Lascannons as well as its classic gatling cannon load out, and leave Valks as ~90pts flyer transports with some middling guns. Gives definition to the roles of otherwise similar units.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Also; remove Valkyrie Squadrons as FA slots and add them as Dedicated Transports for Veteran Squads, Militarum Tempestus Squads, and Company Command Squads.

Kanluwen wrote:
I never said I don't want Chimeras or Taurox for Platoons. I said that I want them as DEDICATED TRANSPORTS--not "Fast Attack or Dedicated Transports" like we have been seeing(where vehicles have two entries).

Valkyries? Absolutely not as Dedicated Transports for Platoons. Command Squads, Veteran Squads, and Stormtrooper Squads.
While we're at it--Command Vehicle upgrade for Valkyries.

Why not for Platoons? It makes perfect sense and hardly breaks the game.

Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.

By contrast, Chimeras can be put out in huge volumes allowing for armoured regiments to exist in large quantities.

This isn't Space Marines. They don't need "mission specialist vehicles with transport capabilities".

No, it isn't the Space Marines. Its the Guard, we don't have fancy gimmicky gak - we need our upgunned aircraft to keep pace! Are you sure you play Guard? You sure seem to doubt that the poor boys on the ground need enough support to keep them alive.

"Keep pace" with what?

Again, if you want to keep the Vendetta fine. But remove the unit entry and put the Lascannon upgrades on the Valkyrie while halving the transport capacity. It has absolutely no business being a separate unit.

Except it's not a case of Techmarines or Tech-Priests fiddling with the thing and "mending and making do".

The Vendetta was literally made up and pretended to exist this entire time, same as the Taurox and any number of things which people constantly whine about.

If thats how you want to pretend things are, I guess thats up to you.

That's not a "pretend". Notice how it never says that it was a field modification?

Other than the fact that the continued existence of the Vendetta means no Vulture for the Codex, right?

Seriously. I've asked several times and been told that "With the adaptability of the Valkyrie and Vendetta, there is no reason for the Vulture Gunship to be placed into the main Codex."

But the Vulture is in the codex, as of Imperial Aeronautica. But then, I guess I live in an entirely different world to you - I run my guard out of IA3se wholesale so I really don't see what the point of whining about having to own two books is about.

Is it in the book?
Because it's not in my Imperial Guard book.

I have no issues with owning multiple books; but let's not pretend that because it is in book X from FW means it is actually in the Guard book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ustis wrote:

bob82ca wrote:
- and rough riders are cool! But why the hell do they not have toughness 4? A horse is a powerful animal, at least as tough as an ork. It would be consistent with how bikes improve a marines toughness. Also, make them hive gangers or something. Attilans are pretty lame.

You're right and I too have been puzzled by rough riders stat-line a few times. Toughness 4 for definite.
Also, hammer of wrath. It is insane that they do not have hammer of wrath at strength 4, possibly 5. A massed calvary charge's impact is literally the embodiment and inspiration of the idea of hammer of wrath. Horses can weigh up between 1500-2000 pounds. Have games workshop ever seen the Return Of The King when the Rohan horses completely obliterate the orc army upon impact? I'm pretty sure a space marine would be smashed into the air by a 1500 pound horse

Pretty sure they have--considering several of their sculptors and writers were extras in RoTK during that scene.

It being in IA:A with a note saying its a Heavy Support choice for C:IG (which is automatically retconned to C:AM) is functionally identical to it being in C:AM.

As for why the Vendetta is a separate unit to the Valkyrie, its because the wording on the upgrade that reduces its transport capacity is always going to be horribly ugly.

The other reason to keep it as a separate unit is so that you can't buy it as a dedicated transport after you open up Valks as dedicated transports to other units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Because Airborne Guard regiments are RARE. It's why Airborne specialists like the Elysians and Harakoni are considered "rare", as the vehicles necessary for them to ply their trade are primarily attached to the Imperial Navy or Stormtroopers.

And yet anyone can build an Elysian squad.

Terminator armours are very rare things, but we see loads of those.

Hell, compared to a Guardsman, a space marine is extremely rare.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It being in IA:A with a note saying its a Heavy Support choice for C:IG (which is automatically retconned to C:AM) is functionally identical to it being in C:AM.

Functionally? Yeah. But it's not the same thing as actually being present in the book.

And that's what I'm arguing for. It's fine and dandy to be FW, but it being an actual unit entry would be far far far preferable.

As for why the Vendetta is a separate unit to the Valkyrie, its because the wording on the upgrade that reduces its transport capacity is always going to be horribly ugly.

The other reason to keep it as a separate unit is so that you can't buy it as a dedicated transport after you open up Valks as dedicated transports to other units.

"Vendetta Upgrade: A single nose-mounted Twin-Linked Lascannon and two hardpoint mounted Twin-Linked Lascannons. Taking this upgrade reduces the transport capacity of the Valkyrie from 12 to 6. Any Valkyries purchased as dedicated transports for units numbering over 6 cannot purchase this upgrade."

Man, that wording truly is horribly ugly.