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 sing your life wrote:
Age of Sigmar.

Nuff' said.

Yeah right and Fantasy was going great guns, it was dying, then what 3 years later GW kills off fantasy altogether from virtually no sales.

Nuff Said.

Allowing Tom Kirby anywhere near GW in the first place. Putting up prices just for the sake of screwing customers to give shareholders a few extra pence in dividends. Utterly shameless.

For the failure to bring out a Sisters of Battle Army in plastic and leaving the army to rot for 10+ years, this also goes for poor old Bretonnians treated with contempt for almost 12 years.

Introduction of Citadel Finecast as a medium and then had little or nothing in the way of quality control, and allowing 100's of thousands (exestuation) of models to be put on the market woefully flawed.

My bugbear and that is Rehashing (or reboxing) of old kits with new boxes and claiming it to be new product, when it is not. The amount of rehash jobs over the last three years or so amounts to 120 repackaging of previously released kit.
Where GW should have concerned themselves with bringing out new kits to flesh out Tau, Eldar, Chaos, Sisters, Bretonnians etc... Wasted opportunities.

6th Edition being a known failure as was been released and GW knew it and ordering a complete re-write (7th Edition). Having anything to do with LoTR

If I think of more i'll post.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

Yeah right and Fantasy was going great guns, it was dying, then what 3 years later GW kills off fantasy altogether from virtually no sales.
Nuff Said.

WHFB used to be huge yet GW managed to kill it with atrocious rules, a near complete disregard to balancing and an extremely high start up cost.

WHFB was dying but it was not a natural process.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Having anything to do with LoTR

What's wrong with LoTR? Lots of people enjoyed it (though not me) and GW made piles and piles of money off of it.

GW;s biggest mistake is:

1.) The prices

2.) Waging a war on its own customers and constantly seeking to stick it to fans at every turn. Few companies dislike you as much as GW does, though if you're a straight white male in 2015 Marvel Comics might. Them and Comcast.

3.) Not believing it advertising like every other competent company in the world.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
The blisters used to have 4 or 5 figures in them, depending on the figure size.

I liked those ones.

How long ago was that? I started in the mid 90's and as far as I remember it was typically 3 to a blister, ranging from 2 to 4.

Long! I remember somewhere in 1989 i bought a big boxy blister with 12 "space eldar" for 18 guilders (about 9 euro's) i could quench my comic/miniature/music collection with my side job as a youngster, now the entry prices for a young kid is to steep, and who wants to play with plastic stuff when you can play your games on the tablet or your phone.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
who wants to play with plastic stuff when you can play your games on the tablet or your phone.

This is the #1 thing that I observe. Video games existed in 1989, but they were pretty crappy. Now, they're spectacular, and they're getting better and better on portable devices. Many are super addictive in a way that miniatures and wargames can't compete with for most people.

Almost all of my nephews and such in the 10-20 year old range have no interest in miniature wargaming because the time that it takes to insert a tabbed single-piece model into a base and wait for glue to dry seems outrageous -- and the thought of painting a model, or putting models into a box to go somewhere, or meeting someone physically to play a game is just totally foreign to them.

Mostly, "But... you can just play World of Warcraft and skip all that glue and paint stuff..."

It's been sort of said but Kirby he basically went from someone hired to do the books to controlling everything within 10 years.

He shoehorned them into going public. And he has influenced every bad decision they have made.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
The blisters used to have 4 or 5 figures in them, depending on the figure size.

I liked those ones.

How long ago was that? I started in the mid 90's and as far as I remember it was typically 3 to a blister, ranging from 2 to 4.

Long! I remember somewhere in 1989 i bought a big boxy blister with 12 "space eldar" for 18 guilders (about 9 euro's) i could quench my comic/miniature/music collection with my side job as a youngster, now the entry prices for a young kid is to steep, and who wants to play with plastic stuff when you can play your games on the tablet or your phone.

Oh my god, I remember the hard plastic boxes that contained a full squad! I still have one of the ork units packaged that way.

 Talys wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
who wants to play with plastic stuff when you can play your games on the tablet or your phone.

This is the #1 thing that I observe. Video games existed in 1989, but they were pretty crappy. Now, they're spectacular, and they're getting better and better on portable devices. Many are super addictive in a way that miniatures and wargames can't compete with for most people.

Almost all of my nephews and such in the 10-20 year old range have no interest in miniature wargaming because the time that it takes to insert a tabbed single-piece model into a base and wait for glue to dry seems outrageous -- and the thought of painting a model, or putting models into a box to go somewhere, or meeting someone physically to play a game is just totally foreign to them.

Mostly, "But... you can just play World of Warcraft and skip all that glue and paint stuff..."

You hit the nail on the head. When I was first introduced to miniatures as a 10 year old I thought they were the best thing ever and I soaked up the hobby for the next 4 years, non stop. Some of my younger cousins began the hobby 2 years ago. At first huge enthusiasm, but after a while the XBOX had them roped back in. They'll still play if the game is put in front of them, but my uncle has to do everything for them. They've no interest in painting the models let alone learning painting techniques, assembling or even reading the rules. And I think that's true of a lot of younger and teen collectors, there's just a lack of sustained enthusiasm there, with so much "at your fingertips" digital entertainment surrounding them.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
who wants to play with plastic stuff when you can play your games on the tablet or your phone.

This is the #1 thing that I observe. Video games existed in 1989, but they were pretty crappy. Now, they're spectacular, and they're getting better and better on portable devices. Many are super addictive in a way that miniatures and wargames can't compete with for most people.

Almost all of my nephews and such in the 10-20 year old range have no interest in miniature wargaming because the time that it takes to insert a tabbed single-piece model into a base and wait for glue to dry seems outrageous -- and the thought of painting a model, or putting models into a box to go somewhere, or meeting someone physically to play a game is just totally foreign to them.

Mostly, "But... you can just play World of Warcraft and skip all that glue and paint stuff..."

You hit the nail on the head. When I was first introduced to miniatures as a 10 year old I thought they were the best thing ever and I soaked up the hobby for the next 4 years, non stop. Some of my younger cousins began the hobby 2 years ago. At first huge enthusiasm, but after a while the XBOX had them roped back in. They'll still play if the game is put in front of them, but my uncle has to do everything for them. They've no interest in painting the models let alone learning painting techniques, assembling or even reading the rules. And I think that's true of a lot of younger and teen collectors, there's just a lack of sustained enthusiasm there, with so much "at your fingertips" digital entertainment surrounding them.

I don't know what year it was when you started, but people who get in to the hobby briefly and then drop it and also people who get in to the hobby and stick with it have both existed since forever.

Not miniatures, but finescale models, my Dad got in to finescale models as a kid (late 50's early 60's) and the interest lasted a year or two. I got in to finescale models (similar age, mid 90's) and I stayed with it for about 4 years before going to wargame models and have always had a few finescale models on the back burner. What does that tell you? Abso-fething-lutely nothing because my Dad isn't me and I'm not my Dad the same way your cousins aren't you and you're not your cousins.

Of the initial group of people I started the hobby with there was several for which it lasted about 6 months, a couple of lasted maybe 2 years, and a couple for which is lasted well over 2 years. There's no point bringing up anecdotes about "kids these days!" when all facets of different personalities have always existed.

I tend to be of the opinion people overstate the influence of video games on wargames, there has always been more mainstream things for kids to do that wasn't wargaming, wargaming has never been mainstream, it's only with GW making it somewhat mainstream that you see more people who have boxes on their shelves (even if they didn't pursue it in the long run).

People have always had bias against younger generations. "Back in my day" and "Get off my lawn!" are hardly modern phrases

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I tend to be of the opinion people overstate the influence of video games on wargames,

Indeed, not least because computer games are hardly new. When I was in early secondary school (so 92ish) most of the boys at least seemed to have access to some kind of games system. The PS1 was released in 1995, 20 years ago which interestingly was around the time that GW was entering its golden age.

All that's really changed is that computer gaming has become much more mainstream and it isn't regarded as a children's toy to anywhere near the extent that it used to be.

God no... i hate those small blisters.. i much rather have a box of models.

Everyone likes what they like but the title shouldnt have been GW's biggest mistake..... lol

Clamshells also cost a lot more production wise. (equipment, labor, etc.)

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
God no... i hate those small blisters.. i much rather have a box of models.

Everyone likes what they like but the title shouldnt have been GW's biggest mistake..... lol

Clamshells also cost a lot more production wise. (equipment, labor, etc.)

Honestly i had a unit of 20 guys for 35 pounds from blisters. now i need to buy 2 boxes of 22.50 figures just to get the same...

I'd like blisters back as its a nice way to build up your units on a budget.

Their biggest mistake is ignoring the enormous barrier to entry for their product, the game of 40k.

But, I am no business expert

 zgort wrote:
Their biggest mistake is ignoring the enormous barrier to entry for their product, the game of 40k.

But, I am no business expert

This is quite easily fixable though make mini army boxes for say 45 pounds

Or blisters of troops again.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I don't know what year it was when you started, but people who get in to the hobby briefly and then drop it and also people who get in to the hobby and stick with it have both existed since forever.

Not miniatures, but finescale models, my Dad got in to finescale models as a kid (late 50's early 60's) and the interest lasted a year or two. I got in to finescale models (similar age, mid 90's) and I stayed with it for about 4 years before going to wargame models and have always had a few finescale models on the back burner. What does that tell you? Abso-fething-lutely nothing because my Dad isn't me and I'm not my Dad the same way your cousins aren't you and you're not your cousins.

Of the initial group of people I started the hobby with there was several for which it lasted about 6 months, a couple of lasted maybe 2 years, and a couple for which is lasted well over 2 years. There's no point bringing up anecdotes about "kids these days!" when all facets of different personalities have always existed.

I tend to be of the opinion people overstate the influence of video games on wargames, there has always been more mainstream things for kids to do that wasn't wargaming, wargaming has never been mainstream, it's only with GW making it somewhat mainstream that you see more people who have boxes on their shelves (even if they didn't pursue it in the long run).

People have always had bias against younger generations. "Back in my day" and "Get off my lawn!" are hardly modern phrases

They have existed forever Skink, and statements starting with "today's generation of..." are generally cliched -but in the case of wargaming, I firmly believe it is the case that a greater % of people who start aren't bothered to go to the effort, and that one of the major reasons for this is computer games, and being used to the instantaneous gratification of digital entertainment. I can speak from experience because I was seriously addicted to video games at various points in my life, and as a result found it difficult to motivate myself to partake in pass times that required more effort, even though they were ultimately more rewarding. In fact I eventually felt compelled to give up games full stop to balance my lifestyle. But enough of my sob stories My point being that getting gratification from the hobby requires painstaking effort and patience, and when you've been reared on the instantaneous gratification that video games give...it's hard to motivate oneself to activities that take higher effort. And I'm not just talking about tabletop hobbies.

I am of course not applying that belief to the gerneral populace, but it's definately true of a considerable % of people:

The painting and modelling quality of second hand miniatures collections I've viewed recently are shockingly bad. I can remember myself and my friends being that bad when we started, but we went to the effort, experimented, read guides, refined my technique. Whereas It seems like the majority of these collectors I've met in never even read a painting or modelling guide in their life. Most of the models I've seen are badly glued, the paint is slapped on. Most weren't even bothered removing mold lines.

So again, I can't speak factually, only from what I've experienced -that on average, people attracted to wargaming now aren't as willing to put in the same time and effort as people in the 90's.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


I don't know what year it was when you started, but people who get in to the hobby briefly and then drop it and also people who get in to the hobby and stick with it have both existed since forever.

Not miniatures, but finescale models, my Dad got in to finescale models as a kid (late 50's early 60's) and the interest lasted a year or two. I got in to finescale models (similar age, mid 90's) and I stayed with it for about 4 years before going to wargame models and have always had a few finescale models on the back burner. What does that tell you? Abso-fething-lutely nothing because my Dad isn't me and I'm not my Dad the same way your cousins aren't you and you're not your cousins.

Of the initial group of people I started the hobby with there was several for which it lasted about 6 months, a couple of lasted maybe 2 years, and a couple for which is lasted well over 2 years. There's no point bringing up anecdotes about "kids these days!" when all facets of different personalities have always existed.

I tend to be of the opinion people overstate the influence of video games on wargames, there has always been more mainstream things for kids to do that wasn't wargaming, wargaming has never been mainstream, it's only with GW making it somewhat mainstream that you see more people who have boxes on their shelves (even if they didn't pursue it in the long run).

People have always had bias against younger generations. "Back in my day" and "Get off my lawn!" are hardly modern phrases

They have existed forever Skink, and statements starting with "today's generation of..." are generally cliched -but in the case of wargaming, I firmly believe it is the case that a greater % of people who start aren't bothered to go to the effort, and that one of the major reasons for this is computer games, and being used to the instantaneous gratification of digital entertainment. I can speak from experience because I was seriously addicted to video games at various points in my life, and as a result found it difficult to motivate myself to partake in pass times that required more effort, even though they were ultimately more rewarding. In fact I eventually felt compelled to give up games full stop to balance my lifestyle. But enough of my sob stories My point being that getting gratification from the hobby requires painstaking effort and patience, and when you've been reared on the instantaneous gratification that video games give...it's hard to motivate oneself to activities that take higher effort. And I'm not just talking about tabletop hobbies.

I am of course not applying that belief to the gerneral populace, but it's definately true of a considerable % of people:

The painting and modelling quality of second hand miniatures collections I've viewed recently are shockingly bad. I can remember myself and my friends being that bad when we started, but we went to the effort, experimented, read guides, refined my technique. Whereas It seems like the majority of these collectors I've met in never even read a painting or modelling guide in their life. Most of the models I've seen are badly glued, the paint is slapped on. Most weren't even bothered removing mold lines.

So again, I can't speak factually, only from what I've experienced -that on average, people attracted to wargaming now aren't as willing to put in the same time and effort as people in the 90's.

I know where you're coming from, I just don't really agree. Video games might be more popular in the mainstream amongst adults, but wargames have never been mainstream to begin with.

Wargamers have always been the "quirky" types. I wasn't alive prior to video games, but I'd hazard a guess and say even in the 70's and earlier things like wargaming and scale modelling appealed only to a subset of of the population.

But certainly in the era of video games from the early 90's onwards, I really don't think the market has changed all that much. I do think people get biased because when they were young they tended to gravitate to other kids of similar interests and mentality but now they've grown up they tend to not choose which kids they hang around and probably end up with a broader taste of the fickle nature of kids.

You mention painting and modelling quality of second hand miniatures.... 2nd hand miniatures have always been AWFUL. Back in the mid 90's my first ever army was a 2nd hand Lizardmen army from the FLGS (which luckily was only primed and not painted), the FLGS used to get most of its business from trading 2nd hand models and the vast majority of them were TERRIBLE.

Actually, most minis I saw in general back then were terrible. Overall painting and modelling quality has increased (at least in my local area) I think because of the greater availability of painting guides and whatnot on the internet and also the local store staff are better painters and teachers than they used to be.

But your description of "badly glued, paint slapped on, mold lines not removed" has always been the case, I can dig up some old Orks from 2nd edition that I bought in the late 90's off a mate who was quitting after being in the game for about a year, they are horribly assembled, not cleaned at all (not even the injection points let alone the mould lines) and sloppily painted with enamels.

Of course we don't have any real data to see the overall trends... we're both just guessing. I just tend to think the effect of video games is far less than people think it is because the growth of video games has been in a different segment of the population that is not interested in wargames to begin with (FWIW, me and all my friends who started wargaming in the mid 90's as kids ALL were also video gamers before we started on any models).

I think people just get biased based on the specific kids they used to hang around when they themselves were kids vs. the wider population of kids that form our impressions of youngsters we get when we ourselves are adults.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Of course we don't have any real data to see the overall trends... we're both just guessing. I just tend to think the effect of video games is far less than people think it is because the growth of video games has been in a different segment of the population that is not interested in wargames to begin with (FWIW, me and all my friends who started wargaming in the mid 90's as kids ALL were also video gamers before we started on any models).

Could be you're right, My view is of course biased by the detrimental effect games had on me, specifically killing motivation for other activities, and while I certainly know a fair number of other wargamer types who had he same experience...but everyone is wired differently so hard to measure games' effects on general populace of hobbyists.

Video games has absolutely affected miniature games.

That data people cite about tabletop games growing doesn't really factor in miniature games. It's board and card games that are growing more than anything else, and that's because they are packaged games.

Miniature games need a lot of prep work to start playing, and even more to make playing look good. It's a lot of hurdles just to start playing at all. Video games compete both for that time, and for the money used to buy, build, and customize our miniature games.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Video games has absolutely affected miniature games.
That data people cite about tabletop games growing doesn't really factor in miniature games. It's board and card games that are growing more than anything else, and that's because they are packaged games.

Surely it is board and card games that have affected miniature games then?

 Vertrucio wrote:
Video games has absolutely affected miniature games.

That data people cite about tabletop games growing doesn't really factor in miniature games. It's board and card games that are growing more than anything else, and that's because they are packaged games.

Miniature games need a lot of prep work to start playing, and even more to make playing look good. It's a lot of hurdles just to start playing at all. Video games compete both for that time, and for the money used to buy, build, and customize our miniature games.

Wait, so you say the data people cite (what data are you talking about?) doesn't factor in miniature games, but then based on the absence of any data you make the comment that video games has absolutely affected miniature games? What data are you using to come to that conclusion?

Actually I do agree video games have affected miniature games.... I just don't know by how much, or if the effect is even negative or positive and certainly the trend over the last 25 years is hard to gauge. I'm sure a lot of people got in to 40k via the DoW games, so maybe the effect is positive At a guess, I'd say the internet has done more to grow wargaming over the past 25 years than video games has hindered it (if at all).