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Many companies would benefit from learning that what you incentivise is what you get. It may not be what you wanted, but it's what you got.

If GW incentivise sales of 'main range' in store to the exclusion of everything else, that is what they will get.

Just to clarify, the new manager seems like a great guy and he has lots of experience at different stores apparently. So I just thought it odd to find FW getting banned bar special events.

You pick up a white dwarf or warhammer visions in store and see Forgeworld models plastered across the pages. But don't think about bringing those models in here....

The regulars I'm talking about are all ideal GW customers in my opinion. They were the 40k scene, then were the 8th Edition WHFB scene (all bought in store) and are now going through a 30k phase. Most don't seem into AoS like me, so maybe it's a ploy to get a bigger scene going, but as some have FW models in their fantasy armies and 40k armies too, it doesn't seem like it'll win many friends.

 BrookM wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand.

Where is this store?

It's Rotterdam. They do have FW ina display case. But actual gaming with FW stuff, you'll need to ask first. At least that's what the current manager asked me to do when I brought some FW Chaos stuff some time ago. It's okay, as long you don't go overboard there.

It's the same with specialist games, you won't be able to play those in store either... even though it IS a GW product. You can paint everything there as far as I know but now play them out in the open.

Mind, that happened quite a few months ago, don't know how it is now. I assume the same.

Yup, I would call corporate, or write them a letter (not an email). They won't listen to the idea that they need to write Faqs that would take any of us three hours per rulebook tops, but they will listen when it means money in their pocket (and Forge world's money is their money).

Bottle wrote:Just to clarify, the new manager seems like a great guy and he has lots of experience at different stores apparently. So I just thought it odd to find FW getting banned bar special events.

You pick up a white dwarf or warhammer visions in store and see Forgeworld models plastered across the pages. But don't think about bringing those models in here....

The regulars I'm talking about are all ideal GW customers in my opinion. They were the 40k scene, then were the 8th Edition WHFB scene (all bought in store) and are now going through a 30k phase. Most don't seem into AoS like me, so maybe it's a ploy to get a bigger scene going, but as some have FW models in their fantasy armies and 40k armies too, it doesn't seem like it'll win many friends.

Name. The. Store.

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand.

Where is this store?

It's Rotterdam. They do have FW ina display case. But actual gaming with FW stuff, you'll need to ask first. At least that's what the current manager asked me to do when I brought some FW Chaos stuff some time ago. It's okay, as long you don't go overboard there.

It's the same with specialist games, you won't be able to play those in store either... even though it IS a GW product. You can paint everything there as far as I know but now play them out in the open.

Mind, that happened quite a few months ago, don't know how it is now. I assume the same.

Thank you for that.

 Vermis wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

What's 'logical' about not getting to use GW models in a GW store?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Unless they're not actually 'mainstream' GW models that you can buy or order in-store.

And who made that decision? GW corporate. The current policies separating the two product lines (FW and GW) which produce products for the same games are wholly GW's doing. So, where is the logic in this divide? Further, where is the logic in implementing and maintaining that divide when GW staff are turning away GW customers because said customers are using products produced by GW (FW) for use in GW games?

 Vermis wrote:

I don't get turned away from a Toyota dealership if I take my Scion in for service because ultimately they are the same company.

I'll bet when you're considering a new car, those individual guys on commission would much rather you bought a Toyota, though.

Again, a "problem" that was wholly created by GW. The commissions gained by GW store managers from in-store FW products could exist if GW was interested in doing so. But GW isn't interested in doing so and have now created a climate in some of their stores where customers have to be mindful of which GW products are eligible to be used in a GW store.

Do you still not see the dumpster fire of logic at play here?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Playing armies in store that aren't being bought or are for sale in store? Ban them right there and then. No different from turning up with WM/H stuff and expecting to play it.

Technically true. However that doesn't mean it's not a dumb analogy.

What happens when you tell your regular customers their army is no longer allowed in store?
They leave.

No, they buy another army as they love space marines and want to play them.

Or they sell off their Dark Angels on eBay, and are never seen in GW again.

Care to guess which one I would choose?

The Auld Grump - because yet another reason to stay away from GW is always a good idea....

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Thank you for that.

Well, I do have to say... That's the store I frequently go to. Not the store OP is talking about though. Don't know which store OP is talking about.

Isn't there a mindset amongst some 30k guys that 30k is superior to 40k sort of like the warmahordes guys. And might not some be inclined to actively discourage people from playing 40k because 30k is so much better. That attitude could be bad for the Manger in particular and maybe even the player base in general. Could be a reason to ban them. OP doesn't say things are like that so they probably aren't, but there could be good reasons for discouraging a group of 30k guys.

It seems like GW lets their different parts fall into competition in an unhealthy way rather than supporting each other. For example, if a manager encourages someone to buy Forgeworld, that customer goes away and buys it online GW get money but that manager gets nothing but a customer that left empty handed, and it's raw sales that keep him in his job, a job that has a high turnover rate for those that didn't cut it. It understandably means that some managers are inclined to actively discourage purchasing products like FW because it's making harder for them to meet *their* targets which for them take priority.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Isn't there a mindset amongst some 30k guys that 30k is superior to 40k sort of like the warmahordes guys. And might not some be inclined to actively discourage people from playing 40k because 30k is so much better. That attitude could be bad for the Manger in particular and maybe even the player base in general. Could be a reason to ban them. OP doesn't say things are like that so they probably aren't, but there could be good reasons for discouraging a group of 30k guys.

Even if that is the case of one product being superior to the other both products are still produced by the same company. A company shouldn't divide its customer base and ostracize paying customers from its retail locations because those customers favor one product the company offers over another product.

People keep bringing up playing other games in a GW store (like Warmahordes) while ignoring that 30k and 40k are made by the same company! The only competition here is the manufactured competition GW has created by stubbornly enforcing the divide between FW and GW retail.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
It seems like GW lets their different parts fall into competition in an unhealthy way rather than supporting each other. For example, if a manager encourages someone to buy Forgeworld, that customer goes away and buys it online GW get money but that manager gets nothing but a customer that left empty handed, and it's raw sales that keep him in his job, a job that has a high turnover rate for those that didn't cut it. It understandably means that some managers are inclined to actively discourage purchasing products like FW because it's making harder for them to meet *their* targets which for them take priority.

But that strategy worked so well for WotC with D&D 4th edition.... (WotC has since bought a clue - and 5th no longer frames that mentality.)

The Auld Grump

I'm still waiting to hear what benefit this move brings in other that a rather far fetched hope people will just buy a new army to play in store.

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

 BrookM wrote:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Theres a limit on Forgeworld models to use at the GW where I go, plus you need to ask beforehand.

Where is this store?

It's Rotterdam. They do have FW ina display case. But actual gaming with FW stuff, you'll need to ask first. At least that's what the current manager asked me to do when I brought some FW Chaos stuff some time ago. It's okay, as long you don't go overboard there.

It's the same with specialist games, you won't be able to play those in store either... even though it IS a GW product. You can paint everything there as far as I know but now play them out in the open.

Mind, that happened quite a few months ago, don't know how it is now. I assume the same.

I'd say its slightly different with specialist games, as they're not being sold any more in any format. But yeah, a bit strange that you need to ask to use products from the same company in your game.

Gordon Shumway wrote:Yup, I would call corporate, or write them a letter (not an email). They won't listen to the idea that they need to write Faqs that would take any of us three hours per rulebook tops, but they will listen when it means money in their pocket (and Forge world's money is their money).

It's the same problem though: they've already got your money from the sale, why do anything more? The potential risk of further sales? You're not their target customer if you think that. There, there. There's the door.

If bringing business away from stores is really a problem, then why to just sell Forge World in GW stores? In fact, I've heard they're doing exactly that with plastic Horus Heresy. They already sell black library and GW, so why not Forgeworld? I must say, I have never experienced the problem of Horus Heresy being banned. In fact, my local store has Horus Heresy campaigns and tournaments, which got me into playing Sons Of Horus in 30K. So, it seems like the solution to the problem of Forgeworld taking business away from GW is to just sell Forgeworld in GW stores and not keep it exclusively online.

This is what you get when you over-emphasize individual sales quotas without regard for the effect on the company as a whole. It's kind of stupid that these managers get punished if players want to order stuff online FROM THE SAME COMPANY.

I was expecting to read about some kind of split between the GW and Forgeworld.

I suppose it's a bit like Lexus and Toyota, you wouldn't go into one dealership expecting to see products belonging to the other. (Let's disregard the Citroen and DS situation.)

Back in 2002 I tried to use my Tyranids with armorcast models in the GW store on 8th street in new york city. I was told that they weren't allowed. My friend went back to that store around 2005, and was allowed to use his Armorcast models. That pissed me off.

I've never stepped into a GW store since that day, and except for one army, the 12ish armies I have collected since 2002 I have done exclusively through trades or 3rd party online stores.

GW lost a customer that day, and since, I have got other people not to play GW games.

Oh well.

 BuFFo wrote:


I've never stepped into a GW store since that day, and except for one army, the 12ish armies I have collected since 2002 I have done exclusively through trades or 3rd party online stores.

GW lost a customer that day, and since, I have got other people not to play GW games.

Oh well.

Not really, while you don't give them your money directly you are still lining their pockets.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Thank you for that.

Well, I do have to say... That's the store I frequently go to. Not the store OP is talking about though. Don't know which store OP is talking about.

Yes, that was understood. Thank you.

I do want the OP to name the store they are referring to though. They can do so in private message should they wish.

Buffo don't fool yourself - everytime you buy some GW product it's a win for them.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Isn't there a mindset amongst some 30k guys that 30k is superior to 40k

No.

Although I have heard oft repeated on these boards that 30K, being marines v marines, has ended up being a much better _balanced_ rule set than standard 40k.

And while I certainly can't speak for every 30K players, I'm going to guess that the majority of them are like the ones I know, who have mixed a good number of plastic kits amongst the resin, simply for the sake of their poor wallet.

As a side not, GW's policy that web orders you have delivered to your local GW store, even ones you place INSIDE the very store itself for stuff that GW doesn't put on the shelves, has always been pants on head stupid.

Seems like to me there should be a computer terminal that only allows access to GW/FW sites. There, if a player doesn't find what they want, they can order from the terminal and have it delivered to the store. This could also benefit the store in that when a customer purchases something this way, it gets reflected on their sales of that day. So, this way, yes you can bring FW models in because they would technically sell FW models, in a roundabout way.

Otherwise, banning FW models in store when there is no actual way for them to sell FW models doesn't seem unreasonable. They want to get people buying from the store and if people get hooked on buying something you can't provide, you still don't have a customer...You possibly have an angry customer, which can be worse.

GW seems to be about the "buy it from me, now" way of business in their stores. So GW doesn't really care if a manager does the right thing and helps someone find a way to buy the Warhammer product they want, because that doesn't make them money now.

So in short, not surprised and can't blame them. They want money, not loyalty.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
It seems like GW lets their different parts fall into competition in an unhealthy way rather than supporting each other. For example, if a manager encourages someone to buy Forgeworld, that customer goes away and buys it online GW get money but that manager gets nothing but a customer that left empty handed, and it's raw sales that keep him in his job, a job that has a high turnover rate for those that didn't cut it. It understandably means that some managers are inclined to actively discourage purchasing products like FW because it's making harder for them to meet *their* targets which for them take priority.

But that strategy worked so well for WotC with D&D 4th edition.... (WotC has since bought a clue - and 5th no longer frames that mentality.)

The Auld Grump

Interested in hearing D&D 4th ed parallel explained a little more, please.

He might not like it, but banning GW models from a GW store is asinine. Call corporate and talk to them. FW is GW. Simple as that.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
He might not like it, but banning GW models from a GW store is asinine. Call corporate and talk to them. FW is GW. Simple as that.

Er no, unfortunately it isn't. HQ will support the store manager, it is their shop to run as they think best. There is not a corporate line on this, and the manager's decision is final. Stores want to sell FW, but as they apparently cannot manufacture fast enough to stock the stores, at the moment it is not sold in stores. It is a SHOP, and you cannot blame the manager for wanting to sell products. No one has any entitlement to be able to game in a store, regardless of how much you have spent with the company. The price buys you the models, not a guaranteed venue in which to game. Wherever you choose to game comes with certain necessities, joining a club? Membership and weekly fees. Playing at home? You need to provide space, a table and terrain. Want to play in store on a decorated table with lots of terrain with no financial commitment? Well then the cost is you advertising a product to help the store make further sales. If the store manager is happy that FW being played won't be detrimental to sales then that's their business, but as long as the stores are essentially citadel stores, you can't reasonably complain that they want to promote citadel products.

 ProtoClone wrote:
They want money, not loyalty.

Which is an ass-backwards way of doing things. It's very hard to persuade people to give you money for non-essential goods without engendering some sense of loyalty in them.

In fact, I'd suggest that it's brand loyalty (from an ever-shrinking group of customers) that's keeping them profitable (albeit with signs that the amount of profit is in steady, if unspectacular, decline).

So actions like those described in the OP that jeopardise that loyalty are incredibly short sighted and counter productive.

Business as usual then.

 JamesY wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
He might not like it, but banning GW models from a GW store is asinine. Call corporate and talk to them. FW is GW. Simple as that.

Er no, unfortunately it isn't. HQ will support the store manager, it is their shop to run as they think best. There is not a corporate line on this, and the manager's decision is final.

Have you ever tried to contact GW HQ and gotten a response to that effect?

I would think in this case, HQ would want you buying products regardless of where they come from, the store manager would want you to buy GW products specifically because that's how they make their money.

My local GW manager is quite happy with FW stuff. His displays feature several FW products, right at the top of one of the cabinets is a Forge World Bloodthirster, he has several other FW models in there, I'm pretty sure I've seen more than 1 FW titan in the display window. I've seen photos on the store's FB page of games that included FW models and I've chatted to him in the past about FW products and he's always been enthusiastic about them.

I can understand why some store managers might not be happy about not being able to stock FW stuff, but it is a very arse about way of doing things to ban them. I reckon FW customers are usually big spenders who are likely to buy lots of regular GW stuff as well if it takes their fancy.

privateer4hire wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
It seems like GW lets their different parts fall into competition in an unhealthy way rather than supporting each other. For example, if a manager encourages someone to buy Forgeworld, that customer goes away and buys it online GW get money but that manager gets nothing but a customer that left empty handed, and it's raw sales that keep him in his job, a job that has a high turnover rate for those that didn't cut it. It understandably means that some managers are inclined to actively discourage purchasing products like FW because it's making harder for them to meet *their* targets which for them take priority.

But that strategy worked so well for WotC with D&D 4th edition.... (WotC has since bought a clue - and 5th no longer frames that mentality.)

The Auld Grump

Interested in hearing D&D 4th ed parallel explained a little more, please.

The point of similarity is that, like GW, WotC created a deliberate separation between 4e and all of the previous editions - driving a wedge into their own market in the process.

When working on 4e D&D, WotC made a decision to remove backwards compatibility from the game - in an effort to force their market to buy all new materials*.

Ignoring their playtesters in the drive to the new system. (Which led to some immense errata - among other things completely revising the skill challenge DCs.)

They went so far as to tell DMs to not bother trying to convert their own settings, but to just start over - and then put their money where their mouth was, and completely revamped the Forgotten Realms setting.

Sales for 4e peaked early and faded fast - it turned out that insulting your customer base was not a good idea, and that backwards compatibility was actually something that drove the market. Sales for the revamped Forgotten Realms was, in particular, much worse than projected.

Even the sales of the novel series dropped.

Enter Pathfinder - which revamped the 3.5 D&D architecture, but remained backwardly compatible, so folks could easily convert older material.

Pathfinder managed to grab a large number of disgruntled D&D players and GMs, and took the #1 position from WotC.

WotC has since realized that they made some mistakes - and 5e went to the other extreme, attempting to make it very easy to convert older material.

Deliberately driving a wedge between the editions calved the market, rather than solidifying WotC's position. In effect, the opening salvo of the 3.x v. 4e edition war was fired by the company that had made both editions.

The Auld Grump

* The flagship of this new material was supposed to be the digital initiative DDI - which ended up costing WotC more money than it made. I still think that the basic concept behind the DDI was a solid one, but the execution was fatally flawed.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I can understand why some store managers might not be happy about not being able to stock FW stuff, but it is a very arse about way of doing things to ban them. I reckon FW customers are usually big spenders who are likely to buy lots of regular GW stuff as well if it takes their fancy.

That's the key thing though.

The OP stated that there are people starting 30k. 30k can be done without ever buying a single GW item, unlike adding in FW models to an existing army--and it's one of the worst-kept secrets out there that you can get knockoff FW stuff at dirt cheap prices, so the argument of "FW customers buy from GW still" might not be as grounded as you think.

I know of at least two people, locally, who had a pretty extensive knock-off FW collection and would brag about it.