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To be fair, I haven't run Marines in about 3 months. Been playing Guard mostly. I'll have to remember that in the future though.

In general, my suggestion would be to pick out one or two formations you like, and supplement that with a CAD. For instance, my preferred list are the Storm Wing (2 Stormtalons+Stormraven) and Skyhammer (2 devastators in drop pods+2 assault squads with jump packs) formations, with a CAD that gives me what I consider everything else I need--which in my case is Vulkan He'Stan, Honor Guard, an Ironclad, podded Sternguard, and two podded tacticals.

In short, pick some units or unit type you like. If there's a formation or formations that support it, and there probably will be, grab them, and use a CAD to fill in any strategic gaps you might have.

It's all good, everyone gets it wrong.

The taking of a formation or two to supplement a CAD is pretty good too. Assuming you want to take 3 of something. Or Skyhammer.

PS: If you're running Sternguard as 5-man teams, you should look at Command Squads, instead. You can buy 5 Duders with Meltaguns, instead of 5 Duders with Combi-what-have-you's for 20 points less. Unless you're hardcore about the Special Ammo. Those Command Squads can use those extra 20 points to buy a bunch of Meltabombs for everyone... just in case.

Other alternatives are that you can buy 5x Plasmaguns instead of 5x Combi-Plasma for 5 points more. And get to shoot those Plasmaguns for Multiple turns. Assuming you're taking 5-man squads.

 greatbigtree wrote:
It's all good, everyone gets it wrong.

The taking of a formation or two to supplement a CAD is pretty good too. Assuming you want to take 3 of something. Or Skyhammer.

PS: If you're running Sternguard as 5-man teams, you should look at Command Squads, instead. You can buy 5 Duders with Meltaguns, instead of 5 Duders with Combi-what-have-you's for 20 points less. Unless you're hardcore about the Special Ammo. Those Command Squads can use those extra 20 points to buy a bunch of Meltabombs for everyone... just in case.

Other alternatives are that you can buy 5x Plasmaguns instead of 5x Combi-Plasma for 5 points more. And get to shoot those Plasmaguns for Multiple turns. Assuming you're taking 5-man squads.

I run my Sternguard in squads of 10, with combi-meltas for that master-crafted special-issue ammunition goodness. Occasionally a pair of heavy flamers thrown in as well.

Ah, carry on then, good sir.

I use IF chapter tactics but I having a hard build a army based on them of holding line defender style army

newguy1984 wrote:
I use IF chapter tactics but I having a hard build a army based on them of holding line defender style army

If you're willing to get into FW stuff, the Siege Assault Vanguard is a pretty fluffy way to field that sort of army. Not an IF player so I'm afraid I can't get you much more than that from the top of my head.

newguy1984 wrote:
I use IF chapter tactics but I having a hard build a army based on them of holding line defender style army

There's the sentinels of terra supplement as an option if you want to go further down the IF route, or if you really want the feel of garrisoning a world, there's always fortifications you can use for your marines to bunker down in. Not necessarily the most optimal choice if you're playing maelstrom but if you're just playing normal games as I'm presuming you are, its a fluffy way of showing your marines holding the line.

Ah, well, on the plus side, you could use a bunch of your Tacticals as Devs, instead, and just bunch up your Heavy Weapons.

In that regard, the Gladius limits your Dev options, and your Bolters are all re-rolling 1's, so the benefit of the Doctrines is somewhat reduced, since you're already rerolling some attacks.

Devs to sit back. Sternguard to "Drop" in. Scouts with Boltguns and Camo Cloaks. Give them a ride in a Land Speeder Storm, to sneak objectives. All from a CAD. Lots of slots, for the units you'd want to use the most.

Ok so I get getit formations are just more ways to play ok but I can still stick to my foc style army and be ok. I just have to figure out how to make my army good again because I lose a lot and can't seem to figure why. I feel I doing something very wrong

You can stick with the CAD as normal. Nothing is making you take the Gladius, it's just that the various formations offer lots of great benefits for your forces.

newguy1984 wrote:
Ok so I get getit formations are just more ways to play ok but I can still stick to my foc style army and be ok. I just have to figure out how to make my army good again because I lose a lot and can't seem to figure why. I feel I doing something very wrong

Well, post a list, and we can tear it apart for you. Then rebuild it. Faster. Stronger. Centurioner than it was before. For what it's worth, I don't like Cents, but I'll throw it out there as a pretty quick way to crank up the Grav quotient.

Even a list of what you've got, and how many units you'd be willing to purchase in the near future to bring it up. Something like,

"I've got a gadjillion dudes, 2 rhinos, a drop pod, and a couple Vindicators. I'd be willing to buy 3 new boxes, to make something workable."

Here is what I normal use
Caption jamp pack light claw and shield internal
Chapiln jamp pack power maul

3 tac squads 10 men 2rhinos flamers and in on 2 squads.
3 squad has melts gun combo melts on sarge and multi Mult and in pod

Iron clad dread 2flamers and 2 fist in pod
Deard with misssils and las cannon
5Stern guard combie melts pod

2 storm tallon skyhammer missiles
1O man assault squad with one flamer sarg got power sword


2 5 man dev squads one all missiles out he las cannon



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I also have 5 man scout sniper squad 5 bolt gun snipers
10tac termys with assault cannon and missile pod
Dread with assault cannon and heavy flamer
And some mix of heavy wraps gun I will to spend up to a mother 300 on my army just want it to be more viable. As I don't seem to do very good with it

How many points do you typically play, and which Chapter Tactics? Do you like Salamanders? Lots of Melta and Flamers.

I use IF chapter tatcics. 2000 pts are my norm.

Are you iron-clad stuck on using Imperial Fist tactics? They aren't the strongest Chapter, in my opinion. If you are determined to use IF, would you be Ok with a Yellow Pedro Cantor?

Do you have codices that you face regularly? What are your three most common opponents, and what do they typically use? Eldar with lots of Scatter Bikes and Wraith-support? Necrons with a million dudes, gaussing you as they refuse to die? Tau Empire that relies entirely upon Kroot Carnivore squads? Imperial Guard with lots of tanks?

Lastly, would you be willing to try a few games at 1500 points, to test the competitiveness of a list or two? There's really nothing like 1500 points to really make a list lean and mean.

Let me know, I'll craft something up tomorrow.

I really love IF chapter something about holding the line at all cost siege stuff I like not big on white scares biker thing ou raven guard and smurfs just don't do it for me to poster boy marines. My normal oppent is my brother with his tau lots of suit squads with plasma 2riptides( working number 2 but will be ready for are weekly game) pathfinders fire warriors squads 2hammer heads that what he normal runs he still working on new dex and playing with his list.
Our his orks witch are normal 2 truck squads 1big biker squad with warboos 2squads of looted and lots of boys and his killer can and grot squad

Ya you can make up list at 1500. But I always thought 2000 the standard army size



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Also my chapter is my own color I just want to have to buy a army all over again because what I got sucks like what happen with my brothers tau went he basically had to 're buy a whole army because what he had built was based on what he thought was cool boy was he wrong

The "standard army size" is whatever you and your opponent agree to play. If you've got enough for 1500 points but not enough for 2000, then play 1500-point games until you get more models.

I was always told 2000 the normal army size to play so I didn't get my first game till I had that many points. I never seen a game under that. The group I play at once in a while is starting to go bigger so you can use more big stuff like knights and low

Well, size is a to-each-their own thing. You can play a game at 500 points, though it's quite bare bones. My experience is that anything above 2000 loses cohesion, and is less fun. *shrug* Everyone likes different things. I'm used to 1500 as the "standard" for a long time, though there has been a shift locally to 1850, for some reason.

Soo... I'm gonna make you a 1500 point list that you can build up from, and I'll stick to the IF faction, though I'll be using Pedro Cantor [still IF tactics] for the Warlord. I'll be back in a little bit. That said, I'd encourage you and your bro to play a few 1000 point games. You can crank them out really quickly, and maybe get two games in a night. More games speeds your learning curve, because you see how the game "ends" more often. You can see what wins you the game, what kills stuff good, and then what's not working at either.

Ok then but I feel all be having to buy my army all over again as I probably can't use anything I all ready gotl

Nobody is saying you have to re-buy everything. I can guarantee that GBG will probably try to use the models you have to make a decent list. He'll just mess around with some things to try and optimize them. Besides, you can always proxy a unit before you buy.

Ok, so this first crack has nothing to do with models you have, but is built to what I think a "typical" IF list should look like. We could tweak it towards what you already have. I'm also going to post a Salamander list tomorrow, because the models you have fit the bill more or less perfectly for Salamanders. I'm going to do that, because despite the fluff you enjoy, your models aren't siege experts. They're roast'em toast'em experts.

The plan is to set the TFC, Devs, and Dread in a Ruin so that by boosting the Ruin with the Techmarine gunner, you get a 3+ cover save. This is the "Castle" that anchors your force. The TFC is Artillery, allowing you to attack units you can't see. This pressures your opponent to advance, bringing them into LOS. No sense hiding and being bombed, you might as well move into LOS so you can shoot back. That sort of thing. The Dev Squads can fire both LC from the Rhinos. Those Rhinos are now super-tough, because they have an awesome cover save. This is less significant when facing Tau, but them's the breaks. It's normally a solid plan. The Dreadnought is a solid Assault Deterrent, and is again, nice and tough with a solid cover save. The Dread's pod serves two purposes, neither of which is deploying the Dread. 1st, you can drop both Sternguard on turn 1. 2nd, you can drop the empty pod onto an uncontested objective, and steal it. Hopefully, it shows up later in the game.

With only 2 big guns in your Dev Squads, one can always benefit from the Signum, while the other has a one-use Cherub to improve accuracy. You should, often, get at least 5 hits from each squad, over 3 turns. That's pretty good. 10 / 12 hits, instead of a more typical 8/12 without benefits.

Infiltration is passed from the Scouts to their Dedicated transport, per pg 167 of the Rulebook, "If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a dedicated transport, they may infiltrate along with their transport." By guaranteeing that you can deploy after your opponent's main deployment, you can see where weakly held objectives are, and can deploy to them, and then rely upon your castle / Sternguard causing enough damage to distract from the Scouts being killed. Additionally, the Assault Cannon on the Storm should raise its target priority above the scouts, which should buy them an extra turn or two. It would probably be a good idea to buy them a Heavy Bolter, as well, but I forgot while I was making the list.

The Sternguard then drop in, and do what they do. Remember that Pedro gives +1 Attack to everyone nearby, which makes the Sternguard quite the bully unit. I've never really used Sternguard much, so their particular loadouts may not be effective. My idea was that you have your initial alpha strike, then rely on ranged weapons like Plasma and Grav to reach out and touch things, after claiming an objective.

You don't quite achieve Null Deployment, but that can be a good thing. This either allows you to react entirely to your opponent's deployment, or gives you a strongpoint that your opponent will probably want to avoid.


Thunderfire Cannon: [Includes Techmarine Gunner]

Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Cherub, Signum
Rhino: Storm Bolter

Devastator Squad [5]: 2x Lascannon, Cherub, Signum
Rhino: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Plasma Cannon, Storm Bolter
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Scouts [5]: Boltguns
Land Speeder Storm: Assault Cannon, Cerberus Launcher

Scouts [5]: Boltguns
Land Speeder Storm: Assault Cannon, Cerberus Launcher


Pedro Kantor: [Joins Sternguard, Below]
Sternguard [7]: 2x Plasmagun, 5x Combi-Melta, Power Fist
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Sternguard [6]: 2x Grav Cannon w/ Amp,
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


So mostly, the models you have don't suit the IF style of play, from what I can see. I think I can make a much more powerful list with Sallys. I'll check back tomorrow!

Ok this my opinion on some things. I can't stand TFC I believe there over talked up. That a big weakness in sm no good hoard weapons. I don't get Why ever one loves and uses scouts as I feel there very weak and I rather use tac squads. Also dev squads should be fully load out. I feel my list is a rather good rounded lisr. I feel the list you have me would be easily beat

Hey, fair enough. I like the boosted ruin, and I usually run a TFC with Tigurius, generally giving it rending, in the ignores cover shot, with Prescience. Good times.

But, like I said, the models you have would probably be better off as Sallys, so with that in mind...


Vulkan He'Stan: Bolt Pistol, The Forge Father, Gauntlet of the Forge, Kesare's Mantle, Spear of Vulkan
Tactical Squad [5]: Flamer, MC Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad [10]: Meltagun, Multi Melta, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist, Combi-Melta
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Bikes [5]: 2x Grav Gun, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist

Assault Squad [7]: 2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant, MC Eviscerator, 7x JP

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher
Storm Raven: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Twin-Linked Multi Melta, 4x Storm Strike Missiles


I've played this list a couple times, and it was fun. It also suits your models rather well, just proxy a Talon as a Raven for a game or two, see if it works for you. It uses a lot of close range firepower, combined with assault elements.

The Dread on foot is one of those tricky Target Priority units. It's damage output is pretty weak, and if it gets a cover save, it's pretty tough, so you generally want to leave it alone. But if you leave it alone, it will camp an objective, and then you need to assault it late game to move it, which is a bad idea because it will smash your face. It can throw a wrench in a good player's game.

The Raven can act as a late game taxi. One of the downsides of Pod armies is that once you're down, you're kind of stuck, especially if you have short ranged weapons, like the Sallys favour. This way, you can pick up a flamer / melta squad, and a Dread if they're nearby, and then sling them around the board late game. You can get pretty boned if your Raven doesn't show up till turn 4... but that's only an 11% chance, right?

 greatbigtree wrote:
Hey, fair enough. I like the boosted ruin, and I usually run a TFC with Tigurius, generally giving it rending, in the ignores cover shot, with Prescience. Good times.

But, like I said, the models you have would probably be better off as Sallys, so with that in mind...


Vulkan He'Stan: Bolt Pistol, The Forge Father, Gauntlet of the Forge, Kesare's Mantle, Spear of Vulkan
Tactical Squad [5]: Flamer, MC Melta Bombs, Combi-Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Tactical Squad [10]: Meltagun, Multi Melta, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist, Combi-Melta
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod: Storm Bolter


Dreadnought: Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Bikes [5]: 2x Grav Gun, Veteran Sergeant, MC Power Fist

Assault Squad [7]: 2x Flamer, Veteran Sergeant, MC Eviscerator, 7x JP

Ironclad Dreadnought: 2x Heavy Flamer, Ironclad Assault Launcher
Storm Raven: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Twin-Linked Multi Melta, 4x Storm Strike Missiles


I've played this list a couple times, and it was fun. It also suits your models rather well, just proxy a Talon as a Raven for a game or two, see if it works for you. It uses a lot of close range firepower, combined with assault elements.

The Dread on foot is one of those tricky Target Priority units. It's damage output is pretty weak, and if it gets a cover save, it's pretty tough, so you generally want to leave it alone. But if you leave it alone, it will camp an objective, and then you need to assault it late game to move it, which is a bad idea because it will smash your face. It can throw a wrench in a good player's game.

The Raven can act as a late game taxi. One of the downsides of Pod armies is that once you're down, you're kind of stuck, especially if you have short ranged weapons, like the Sallys favour. This way, you can pick up a flamer / melta squad, and a Dread if they're nearby, and then sling them around the board late game. You can get pretty boned if your Raven doesn't show up till turn 4... but that's only an 11% chance, right?

It seems a waste to place He'Stan into a tac squad like that. Sure, you take him for master crafting your melta, but the Spear of Vulkan, his captain statline, and his 2+/3++ makes him perfect for an assault deathstar. And while assault isn't great in 7e, you still need it to lock down certain units, among other things.

I probably stay away from bikes but rest I could work with but I play more at range. I don't like getting with in 12 inch off my opponent as I find I don't want to be that close . as I don't play maelstrom mission as I find one side battles not fun our objectives one can't possible do. So I play older style missions and our just table it opponent

You actually want to be in 12 inch range sometimes for rapid fire... and please try to find the spell check function on your phone...

I find that being in rapid fire rang is not really worth it as I more likely to get killed. That happens to my units ever time they drop pod in they die because there on top of the enemy

Then do not use single drop pods or units which don't delete other units in one turn. If you run a 3-4 pods with grav bikers support you can more or less alfa strike some armies off the board on the turn they drop.