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As someone who plays both Marines and Guard I would also like the side armor to be bumped up to 11. Half the time I'm scared to move my Chiemeras because they can be glanced to death by basic bolters. I'm also fine with a price drop, but the auto cannon I'm indifferent towards (I wouldn't mind getting it but I would usually just run the multi-laser anyway)

I kind of agree with you MoO, with one caveat.

If they leave the Chimera alone, it needs to have it's point cost reduced by 10 points, returning it to it's original point cost. No questions asked.

However, if they change the armor value of the sides from 10, to 11, then it needs to stay at it's present point cost, or if there is a reduction, reduce the cost of the tank by only 5 points.

That being said, I do also agree that there should be an Autocannon turret option on the Chimera by default. Make it a five point upgrade and call it a day. That way people who have the turret from FW can use them or people who want to convert one up can do so.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm fine with it dropping back to 55 but if you stay at 55 I'm not feeling the increase in armor. As a marine player I'm paying 55 for a razorback with HB, no fire points and 6 capacity. For 55 points to get a vehicle that has two weapons, 12 capacity, can give orders and fire points and independent las arrays seems and more armor than a rhino/Razorback seems two cheap

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm fine with it dropping back to 55 but if you stay at 55 I'm not feeling the increase in armor. As a marine player I'm paying 55 for a razorback with HB, no fire points and 6 capacity. For 55 points to get a vehicle that has two weapons, 12 capacity, can give orders and fire points and independent las arrays seems and more armor than a rhino/Razorback seems two cheap

And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves.
Besides, we in the Guard really need a boost right now.

"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

I don't think it's fair to balance a transport based on what might be in it. These days that is a complicated question due to allies

No thats a fair assessment. how many rhinos/Razorbacks/landraders do you see that have gaurdsmen popping out the back? None because if you play a marine army you aren't going to handicap yourself by brining gaurdsmen. Not to mention if a space marine transport blows up the marines inside typically do just fine.... The gaurdsmen however need to be cleaned up with a mop and bucket as the rest of the squad makes a hasty retreat....

Transports almost never explode anymore. It's all about hp scrubbing.

I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

He's not wrong although I do use mine for transport. Obsec everywhere is very cool and you cannot ignore what the Taurox Prime does for your troops when disembarking. Safer than a deep Strike and way more flexible. Serves as terrain later as well!

If you're going to use Stormtroopers why wouldn't you go for the new Emperors Spear formation? You're practically guaranteed to get at least 2 in turn 2 especially if you bring MOF, you get no scatter deep strike basically anywhere on the board, and instead of wonky 11/10/10 craptracks you get Valkyries or Vendettas who go around smashing tanks after they're done dropping off their boyz.

the_scotsman wrote:
If you're going to use Stormtroopers why wouldn't you go for the new Emperors Spear formation? You're practically guaranteed to get at least 2 in turn 2 especially if you bring MOF, you get no scatter deep strike basically anywhere on the board, and instead of wonky 11/10/10 craptracks you get Valkyries or Vendettas who go around smashing tanks after they're done dropping off their boyz.

Well Deep Striking isn't that dangerous for Militarum Tempestus. They don't worry about terrain effects.

Also: the Orders for the Militarum Tempestus are the bomb. They really are what make the army worth playing. Have at least three Command Squads. Strong advice.

Also: air-cav is cool but way more expensive. waaaaay more. So it isn't that its not cool. Its just that I can already get 4 twin linked Lascannons in my army the way I do it now that dont start in reserve and can't be one shot'd. so for all kinds of reasons I prefer the Ground Attack Formation or CAD's.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

@the_scotsman:
Storm Troopers are, quite frankly, a joke. They cost as much as a Tactical Marine, bring less to the board than a basic Scout does and have crappy LD and overall stats and their gun has a terrible range and is still considered Rapid Fire., making it a useless weapon. At best they can make a semi reliable suicide unit for killing a unit of PA guys. If they can put enough wounds on them that is. Usually though they will die without ever performing any significant role. Do yourself a favour and hire on an Inquisitor with Acolyte henchmen - you can give Acolytes Power Armour and a Hellgun and they will only cost 5 points more than your Storm Trooper does. And they have the same stats and can be accompanied by a Jokero to improve them still further and a pair of Crusaders to act as the tanks and an Inquisitor to deal even more damage and buff their morale.
What would you rather have:
14 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Carapace with a Hellgun
or
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hellgun (or 15 if you want a bolter or 14 if you want a Lasgun or 13 if you want a Hellgun and Carapace) with the option to take multiple buffs and improvements

Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

Well Martel:
A) Marines are generally a hell of a lot better than Guardsmen
B) Marines tend not to pay for their transports
C) Marines transports are far better than Guard ones anyway - they are immune to small arms and are cheap

All I want to see is the Chimera brought down to 55 points and given AV 12/11/10, as it really should be.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

Wrong again, bud, mostly...

1) They don't have much more firepower; and they generally have less range
2) They have exactly the same BS (BS4);
3) Jink is valid, you have to get your cover saves elsewhere
4) The Ravager can't fire all 3x weapons at full BS if it moves 12"; a LS only has 2HP
5) They aren't transports
6) They don't have Obsec
7) They don't reroll dangerous terrain
8) Costing: 3x DL Ravager - 125pts, ML/HB Land Speeder - 70pts, ML/AC Taurox Prime - 100pts

Don't get me wrong. Ravagers and Land Speeders aren't power units, neither is a Taurox Prime. But it stacks up ok against them in most respects. The only thing I feel that's really missing is Tank Shock.

Welcome to the Guard. Plenty of good advice above from all these guys.

Fun food for thought is the Chimera, with a turret heavy bolter, a hull heavy bolter, and a pintle mounted heavy stubber. I think someone on this website refers to it as the "dakka bus".

Guard is full of fun and useful variety, just find what matches your play style.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

Wrong again, bud, mostly...

1) They don't have much more firepower; and they generally have less range

The Taurox hardly has a decent range for its guns.

2) They have exactly the same BS (BS4);

The Prime is BS4? That is news to me although as I make a point of avoiding the worst units in my codex I have never used them.

3) Jink is valid, you have to get your cover saves elsewhere

Jink is a massive buff to any Skimmer unit

4) The Ravager can't fire all 3x weapons at full BS if it moves 12"; a LS only has 2HP

The Taurox Prime cannot fire all its weapons at full BS if it moves unless you pay the upgrade to make your already expensive vehicle fast

5) They aren't transports

Neither do they cost as much as a tank whilst having the firepower and armour of an APC

6) They don't have Obsec

Obsec is not really an issue in 7th seeing as all units can claim objectives. Obsec just lets you 'steal' an objective from a none obsec enemy unit.

7) They don't reroll dangerous terrain

No, they just ignore all terrain that they move over because, you know, Skimmer's. Of course if you choose to land in dangerous terrain then that is our own fault.

8) Costing: 3x DL Ravager - 125pts, ML/HB Land Speeder - 70pts, ML/AC Taurox Prime - 100pts

I apologise, the Prime costs more than the Landspeeder, not the Ravager.

Don't get me wrong. Ravagers and Land Speeders aren't power units, neither is a Taurox Prime. But it stacks up ok against them in most respects. The only thing I feel that's really missing is Tank Shock.

The thing is though, the Prime does not stack up well at all. It cannot jink if it is caught in the open, it is still slower than the other two and its pathetic amour of 11/10/10 means that anything heavier than a Bolter can hurt it. And its firepower is the same as a Chimeras unless you are willing to shed out on the points. It is also unavailable for Veterans and regular Infantry sections. Of the two units that are allowed it, one is a massively overpriced Elites choice that, even in casual games, is almost never used and the other is the Company Command Section whom will still take a Chimera as they can issue orders from a Chimera whilst they cannot issue orders from a Taurox.

 master of ordinance wrote:


The Taurox hardly has a decent range for its guns.

The Prime is BS4? That is news to me

The Taurox Prime cannot fire all its weapons at full BS if it moves unless you pay the upgrade to make your already expensive vehicle fast


Obsec is not really an issue in 7th seeing as all units can claim objectives.

And its firepower is the same as a Chimeras unless you are willing to shed out on the points. I.

Well i can see someone has not tried using them or doesnt know the rules. "Hardly decent" range? 48" is "hardly decent"?

You're criticising it without even knowing its BS4?

The Taurox Prime doesnt PAY for an upgrade to make it fast! PRIMES ARE FAST! So I am soconfused by this post. Stop replying and actually read the rules and THEN come back and have this discussion because its annoying to hear people post wrong things repeatedly as if they were some great counterpoint.

It isnt that everything you said is wrong. But this is basic stuff here. You're intnetionally minimizing things to make things sound worse than they are.

If you don't like the Prime, I'm fine with that but at least know what you're talking about.

I've used the Prime a few times before, and it being fast makes a world of difference. It can zip around and shoot stuff up without having to slow down. Unfortunately only my Stormtroopers can take it as a DT (which is unfortunate). At the end of the day I still prefer the good ol' Chimera, but the Prime has it's uses.

I honestly will step out away from the loving warmth of peer consensus to defend the Taurox, mainly in light of the small but every present nerfs to the Chimera.

I have one Chimera and one Taurox. My Taurox will carry veterans (typically melta vets) 100% of the time. The extra fire points allows you to actually use all of your special weapon slots for the squad whilst embarked, and it's NOT going to be immobilized as it scoots through ruins right into the enemy's flank (well, there was that one time, but the exception proves the rule right? ) Plus, if you pay for a Chimera's worth of points, you can slap camo netting on the thing and, assuming you use the Taurox wisely and keep it skirting through terrain (preferably ruins), you can get that wonderful 3+ cover save, and you can laugh maniacally when your opponent suffers severe consternation when your paper-thin DT just won't die. Until you play Tau. Then you're dead, regardless of which units you take.

My Chimera will take a CCS whenever I actually have a CCS in my list; I've never seen anybody waste the Command Vehicle special rule, and I won't be the first. But if I had no CCS, and I had a second squad of veterans, I would essentially lose a lot of utility from taking a 3rd special weapon/heavy weapon, as only two weapons can fire out the top hatch. Granted, you'll have a multilaser and a heavy bolter and a bunch of lasguns, but those dedicated anti-TEQ or anti-armor weapons will get fewer shots, and I personally can't get behind bringing only two special weapons. The Chimera has a significantly higher chance of getting stuck somewhere if you were hoping to get it a cover save (water features are an exception of course, but how is water getting you a cover save...?).

In a hypothetical environment where your DT has no saves, I see very little difference between front armor 11 and 12, especially when they both have SA/RA 10. I tend to get just a little more out of TL autocannons than ML + HB, you can get a cheaper transport/free camo netting with a Taurox, AND extra fire points. IMO, the Taurox fills the "short range mech vets" niche more amply than the Chimera, but the Chimera will always be the go-to tank for command squads.

Yes, people think the Taurox is ugly. I personally don't fully agree. I understand that complaint, but the fact that it is a smaller model tends to help. I am aptly naming my Taurox "The Ugly Truckling", and I am getting a kick out of it.

Now I digress: the Prime is grossly overcosted for BS4 and Fast. And is limited to stormies. When stormies are typically pretty well off just Deep Striking. I will not be taking Primes very soon.



TL;DR Taurox is underrated and can fill the mech vet niche. Chimera is still good, ofc, just a little less so than last edition. The Prime for me is "Do not want!"

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
I cannot imagine running the Taurox Prime with the intention of using it as a transport.

It's a fast fire platform -- comparing it to a Chimera isn't productive. It's a lot more like a LS Typhoon or Ravager.

Except the Typhoon and the Ravager both have more firepower and are skimmers and they can jink and they have a better BS and they still do not cost as much......

@the_scotsman:
Storm Troopers are, quite frankly, a joke. They cost as much as a Tactical Marine, bring less to the board than a basic Scout does and have crappy LD and overall stats and their gun has a terrible range and is still considered Rapid Fire., making it a useless weapon. At best they can make a semi reliable suicide unit for killing a unit of PA guys. If they can put enough wounds on them that is. Usually though they will die without ever performing any significant role. Do yourself a favour and hire on an Inquisitor with Acolyte henchmen - you can give Acolytes Power Armour and a Hellgun and they will only cost 5 points more than your Storm Trooper does. And they have the same stats and can be accompanied by a Jokero to improve them still further and a pair of Crusaders to act as the tanks and an Inquisitor to deal even more damage and buff their morale.
What would you rather have:
14 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Carapace with a Hellgun
or
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hellgun (or 15 if you want a bolter or 14 if you want a Lasgun or 13 if you want a Hellgun and Carapace) with the option to take multiple buffs and improvements

Your choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"And it is also transporting guys with a base line of 4 for their stats and 3+ saves. "

Don't kid yourself. This doesn't mean that much anymore. Power armor hasn't been this bad since 2nd. Don't let people list tailor to your list, and then laugh as all that AP 2 goodness hits guardsmen.

Well Martel:
A) Marines are generally a hell of a lot better than Guardsmen
B) Marines tend not to pay for their transports
C) Marines transports are far better than Guard ones anyway - they are immune to small arms and are cheap

All I want to see is the Chimera brought down to 55 points and given AV 12/11/10, as it really should be.

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, this is a thread about the Guard. We don't care how bad BA are. The comparison made was in reference to marines in general, in which they can easily get free transports.

The shittyness of the BA isn't relevant.

As usual, Martel will take EVER. SINGLE. OPPORTUNITY. To b*tch and moan about BA. It's comical at this point.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Blacksails wrote:
Martel, this is a thread about the Guard. We don't care how bad BA are. The comparison made was in reference to marines in general, in which they can easily get free transports.

The shittyness of the BA isn't relevant.

Then it's free transports he should complain about, not meqs. Because meqs are target dummies. To be more clear, BA (and CSM) specifically refutes every such claim about meqs in this edition. Superfriends is good. Gladius is good, in spite of meqs, not because of them. Skyhammer is good in spite of meqs, not because of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
As usual, Martel will take EVER. SINGLE. OPPORTUNITY. To b*tch and moan about BA. It's comical at this point.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Glad to be of service. Read the above to see why you're wrong in this case.

To start putting the pieces together:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[A Taurox Prime] points itself out as the obvious weak spot in an armored list of otherwise solid AV12 or AV14 wall...

 War Kitten wrote:
Half the time I'm scared to move my Chimeras because they can be glanced to death by basic bolters...

 KommissarKiln wrote:
The Chimera has a significantly higher chance of getting stuck somewhere if you were hoping to get it a cover save...

I've never seen anybody waste the Command Vehicle special rule, and I won't be the first...

The problem with the Taurox Prime is not firepower, they are as shooty against 3+ as Plasma Vets, Grav Cannon Tacs and Scatterbikes. None of those units are exactly paragons of survivability either. But the Prime is pretty much an anti-Chimera, so it just doesn't play well in the same kind of IG build.

 master of ordinance wrote:
19 points for what is essentially a Veteran in Power Armour with a Hell Gun

Scions are 12ppm, not 14ppm like Marines. The idea of giving up BS4, MTC, Deepstrike, Obsec, Obsec Transports, Command Squads with Clarion Vox and Orders, access to Volleyguns, and Frag/Krak Grenades for Acolytes in PA -- that cost 7ppm more -- is bonkers. Yes with Joakero, Inquisitors and Crusaders it's a tougher squad. But those aren't free either.

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

The basic Taurax has less fire power than the Chimera and the Chimera can get the same weapon, plus a secondary, has a better firing port, and I can issue orders out it. The basic Taurax sucks cause it has no place in the army.

Don't forget the cargo capacity. The Taurox only carries 10 instead of 12.

The worst thing about it is it's name, though. Why name something Taurox, when you already have a Tauros in your lineup?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You live in a fantasy or a weak meta. Marines are NOT siginficantly better per point spent than guardsmen at this time in 7.5 Quit trying to perpetuate this utter fallacy. Everything that makes marines strong has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL MARINES. In fact, this is PRECISELY WHY BA ARE THE WORST LIST IN THE GAME.

Martel, I am on about Codex Space Smurf Marines whom are in every way shape and form superior to a Guardsman for what they cost. I know that the BA are in a bad place right now and I understand your frustration but please do not take my words out of context.

About the Taurox Prime, I seem to have made a couple of mistakes regarding its stats. Well I am glad that it does not need to have to pay to become fast and it actually has a semi decent BS but what it still costs more than it is worth. If it was AV11/11/10 and cost 70 points then maybe it would be a viable choice but as it is the Prime is too soft for what it costs. Maybe a future codex will increase its viability but that is a question for another day.

The actual marines are the same, though. So aren't the problem. In fact, they lose ground on guardsmen every time GW publishes a 7.5 codex.

Taurox Primes sound a lot like BA razor backs. Which I have largely stopped using.

If that is the case then why are Imperial Guard players calling for buffs?

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Martel732 wrote:

Same reason BA players are calling for buffs. Although the things in the IG that need buffed aren't the guardsmen. Almost all of your problems are linked to vehicle rules in 7th. Guardsmen + misfortune + FRFSF is better firepower than anything in the BA codex and probably better than anything in the marine codex except grav cents.

Actually yes, Guardsmen do need buffs. We pay Marine prices for Special/Heavy Weapons on a far far far less reliable platform. Add in the fact that if you want to utilize Orders you're essentially having to play Psyker with a tiny range and it becomes a real issue.