Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play mainly play DA. So I can only go with that as a frame of reference. It's not that Tau have ONE really good thing. It's that the rules and the models are amazing in sync/points/value that are only comparable to Eldar.

With that said let's not look at the units in a vacuum. The Riptide, Storm Surge, Drones, formations etc. compound and play off each other's strengths. I can counter a Riptide by itself with knights, bikes, grav etc. But I'm not playing that. Nor, do I feel anyone that is facing Tau deals with just that.

Here's what I normally deal with. I'd like to hear your work around. I'm not being sarcastic or malicious but I'm curious as to how you'd be able to deal with this.

Insane Range
Weight of fire
Cheap interceptor making Deep strike suicide
AP 2 weapons
D missiles
Twin linked boosts
Over watch at full or better ballistic skills
Access to high wounds monstrous creatures
Units that destroy vehicles with rear armor
Shoot. > Jet away behind LOS tactics
Supporting fire

Now, if I was dealing with one or more of these things then I can imagine dealing with it. It's not easy but it's the army. That's life. My concern is that I'm facing ALL of those things in my games. This is coming from a DA player. I can't imagine what it's like to face this as: BA, Orks, Nids, CSM, Demons.

I know that some armies can deal with it. Eldar and Necron come to mind. Eldar have the mobility and can bring some insane devastation with smart play and Necron can just get back up and tank an obscene amount of damage.

But here comes the problem, the solution to facing an army shouldn't be to play another army and I feel like that's the case.

My brother plays Eldar and is building up his bikes. Him and his friend (Tau) face each other quite a few times and the discussion goes something along the lines of "It really depends on which of us goes first.".

That's a massive problem. I feel that ITC is trying to balance the game somewhat but the problem is that people don't want to nerf a model/army they like.

The riptide may be a little strong, but most of its power comes with the combination of markerlight support, supporting fire and the hard swing 40k took away from assault based to shooting base.

On its own a riptide isn't really that scary it's just overall shooting is and the Tau are seemingly built thinking that shooting was still weak compared to assault and thus have added defenses to it that are simply not needed currently.

The one you should more likely be complaining about is the Wraithknight which was the one to ramp up the GMC stupidity if I remember correctly. That thing doesn't even need support and with your BA at least if they make it into combat they can hurt the riptide instead of standing there staring at the thing as it stomps them.

Psychic phase doesn't matter for all armies? Why? A single/a couple psykers is a really good TAC investment for pretty much any army.

You then get to tailor whether you want a good source of buffs or a decent ignores cover shooting unit depending on what enemy your facing. Just because it isn't Eldar or Librarius levels of bonkers doesn't mean they're not a really solid thing to include. And at very worst, if your opponent overloads you with psychic powers, a psyker is just a moderately expensive IC with a force axe.

A bike Libby, maybe a dread Libby if that's your bag as long as you have the army to support it is a solid inexpensive Hq with the potential to be really good in certain matchups, say, vs tau.

The art of kanly is alive. /sigh

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Riptides are ignorable while you kill off all of their Markerlight support. If my opponent fielded a Riptide Wing, I'd thank them for making my life easier, then precede on dismantling their list.

SJ

How quickly do you kill a full drone net? Some markerlights are easy to kill, but e.g. Piranhas, the drone net etc. are pretty tough to remove and while you try that the rest of the army will still be there.

Add to that the fact that 3 riptides can self buff their BS by +2 and they are not so dependent on the ML support anymore. By good use of target locks they can apply damage everywhere.

Martel got a biased view because of BA but it doesn't mean he is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kambien wrote:You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it

An army should stand on its own. I don't think the allies mechanism has made this game better.

Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.

 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.

Yeah, insulting everyone while offering nothing constructive at all. That'll show everyone how wrong they've been!

3 Grav Cents firing at a Riptide, if he has FnP, will not kill it on average. It's just basic math. You could get lucky and roll above the average, although it's more likely the Tau player will roll below his average in that case, but it's not a guarantee.
And grav cents are the one unit in the game designed to kill Riptides. The vast majority of armies need to get into melee combat in order to silence the guns this thing is sporting, and reaching melee with a fast unit that has incredibly long range weapons is no small feat. There are only a few armies that can manage it before turn 4 (Necrons, SM come to mind).

How do most armies handle this reasonably? Because the last time this came up, someone mentioned a single dominion squad. That....didn't work out.

You know who else doesn't get to participate in the psychic phase? Black Templars. Apparently this makes us entitled to murder-stomping everyone in assault. Shame that doesn't work on Riptides...

Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?

 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.

Actually, your position has been proven incorrect many times over. Tau players are giving false information about the weaknesses of the Riptide in a *practical setting*. Cover such as ruins really puts this thing over the top. Please find me the strong BA shenanigans if you want to be helpful.

Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

As a tau player I only use my riptides as distraction carnifex's. Hop on an objective, shoot a salvo but nothing more although they are great with interceptor.

Riptide wing, the past 3 times I have faced it with other armies, 2 out of 3 just made them fail leadership tests, the 3rd I just tied them up in CQC with a ton of boys and laughed as half their list became useless.

Sorry xenomancers, it does not need warithknight cost. its not bs4, d weapon, T8,8 wounds, native fnp, fearless, 12" move, unstoppable etc..

-Insane Range: if you play tau on a terrain naked field, what do you expect? grab shoe boxes on the way to play, and add them as large buildings..
-Weight of fire: 1 blast shot (possibly ordinance) or 3 shots that are weaker. its not that much at the range you are talking about.
-Cheap interceptor making Deep strike suicide: it only takes 2 support systems, so if it takes interceptor, its taking it over another system. if you are playing with someone with FNP, target lock AND interceptor, they are cheating.
-AP 2 weapons: plasma rifle is plasma gun but weaker, fusion is melta but better so you win that one. the IA the riptide brings is s7/8/9 ap2, but you have tanks with s10 ap2 that cannot be killed with s3 mass fire.
-D missiles: only sD is using markerlight per missle, otherwise s8.
-Twin linked boosts- you mean a relic that the best shooting person in the army has to give up shooting to bestow to 1 unit? which cannot be riptide or storm surge? or the ones i have to use up 2 hard points pay extra for, and counts as 1 weapon?
-Over watch at full or better ballistic skills: i native overwatch at bs1 just like any non-dark angel. if i devote 3 units to it, i get bs2. if i shoot marker lights first (at bs1) and get some hits, then maybe it can be better. if you are charging with 3 units with LOS and within 12" of the charged unit, and ML support within that 12" i don't feel your shooting phase worked out to well.
-Access to high wounds monstrous creatures: This actually is more of a problem. the riptide at 5 wounds is a standard MC, but now that ghostkeel and storm surge were added, when at LEAST the storm surge should be a walker..
-Units that destroy vehicles with rear armor : oh yeah, OSC is broken as hell. i would say to my credit, i dont bring it. not a WAAC player
-Shoot. > Jet away behind LOS tactics: if entering or exiting terrain should take dangerous terrain tests, the 2nd jump is 2d6", so might just leave their critical unit exposed to a bad roll. take advantage of their whopping 6" move to reduce the damage they can do after the first move
-Supporting fire: same strategy as in 6th ed, declare charge with some unit that's nearly dead, or 2+ armor to soak up wounds, then charge with your real unit. outside of longstrike, no one can fire more than 1 overwatch. cannot split fire in overwatch.

NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.

 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?

Again, durability DOES NOT dictate the entirety of the price of a model. The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.

Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k

 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go another "boo hoo Tau are mean thread" only the 5th one this week it seems. Anyone who thinks the Riptide is OP needs to revisit the multitude of other anti Tau threads as plenty of facts and strategies have been presented to prove otherwise and beat it reliably. Also if you are struggling to kill a Riptide with Grav Centurions either you have rotten luck rolling dice every single time or are exaggerating. Also why keep crying about it, the Tau literally just had a new Codex so it isn't going to change anytime soon so instead of throwing out a complain thread every 5 days maybe instead listen to how Tau players tell you how to beat it or develop some strategies of your own. Think constructively, not negatively however it seems to be a foreign and hard concept for several of you who cry about the Riptide yet ignore your own strong shenanigans or dismiss other peoples input who ignore or don't agree with the amount of nerfing you want and will never happen. Time to drop the issue, its been beaten to death.

I usually play Chaos Space Marines. I killed a Riptide once. It took me three turns of shooting with two squads of Havocs (one of them having two lascannons and two missile launchers, the other four autocannons), then shooting at it and charging with a two-melta Raptor squad. And I only managed to kill it thanks to some unlucky rolls on the part of my opponent.

So please tell me what kind of "strong shenanigans" can I employ to bring it down quickly, in a constructive way.

 pumaman1 wrote:

NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.

This depends on how you play CFP. RAW 3 separate riptides all firing together using CFP would get +2

As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

Unless you are using CFP, in which they "fire as if one unit", meaning they are counted as one unit for firing and get the fire team bonus

As CSM, you can't fight anything anyway with the sad codex you currently have. It's not unique to the riptide.

For the bazillion time, using a non functional codex as your argument is not a proper argument.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptide really needs to be dropped to 3+ save and go down a wound if it's cost is to remain the same. Otherwise it needs to cost what a wraith-knight costs. Because it is more durable than a WK and with support it is equally destructive vs it's preferred targets. Also - how is this thing not a LOW?

Again, durability DOES NOT dictate the entirety of the price of a model. The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 crazyK wrote:
Man if you don't like facing Riptides I'd hate to see the rage thread if you faced a Tau player bringing a Y'Vahra

LOL - I tell him he can't play it. Experimental rules. Only would let them use it if I could make up stats for a unit and play it too.

Guess what? "Experimental rules" are now 100% legal to play in normal 40k

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.

Durability is a huge factor when you have a MF str 9 ap2 large blast with enormous range. Why do people shoot vindicators off the table? because they hurt! Riptides are essentially indestructible vindicators with unlimited range. How can you say their offense is bad?

Well lets drop that entire line of argument for cfp, as its off topic to the thread, has had a few dozen threads, and has seen no large, or even small consensus.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Well lets drop that entire line of argument for cfp, as its off topic to the thread, has had a few dozen threads, and has seen no large, or even small consensus.

Will do, but I beg to differ that there wasn't a consensus

"The wraith knight is a GC, has D weapons, and has T8."

And is undercosted by 150 pts. At least.

 Xenomancers wrote:

How is it any different than me making up rules and playing with them? "Experimental rules" is essentially forge-world admitting that this thing is not balanced within the game.

Thats not what experimental rules means. That was used in the past as the initial rules that may still be tweaked before the model is released in an actual forge world book

Four Grav Centurions over kill a Riptide, can probably kill two if they are in a squad. Blast them right off the board.

If you can't get Draigo or a Imperial Bunker to slingshot them forward 18" (or more, with Draigo) turn one, then that's not the Centurion's problem.

But yes, the fact that DA and BA can only really get effective Grav Weaponry on Bikes is a problem. Allies can fix it, but not everyone wants to paint up a squad or two of white Centurions/Bike Command Squad to deal with it. (Since, if you are allying for Centurions, might as well make it a White Scars detachment with a Librarian carrying the Hunter's Eye and rolling for Divination.)

Just so i am clear, how is grav weaponry on a bike a bad thing? a fast moving, relentless, t5 unit, that isn't generally considered overcosted for performance

It's bad because cents exist

 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

In WHAT perfect world are you catching a Riptide with Cultists?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
As CSM, you don't need to worry about taking it down. bring a tarpit of cultists, lock it up in combat, keep your aspiring champion alive.

When i was new (like 2nd or 3rd game ever) i brought a riptide with his drones. moved it past a building to get LOS and try to template a large squad of cultists of the field. i scattered wildly, and jumped 2" away.. the cultists charged, killed a drone, i lost moral, and was swept, because I2.

You definitely have my sympathy. CSM is probably the weakest codex only faction for now. yeah forge-world/demon allies can help, but that shouldn't be required to try and play a decent game.

fire team rule is pretty clear, you have to have 3 riptides/hammerheads/ghost keels etc in a unit to get the +1 bs bonus. 3 riptides is separate units will not count.

In WHAT perfect world are you catching a Riptide with Cultists?

we played with plenty of buildings, i moved to within 9" to get LOS because the building was in the way, naively confident in my large blast, and jet thrust. the blast scattered 10" away, the 2ndary weapons didn't wound, and then i jet thrusted 2" (rotten luck). so the cultists just needed to land a 5" charge. i will say this was my 2nd or 3rd game ever, but it did in fact happen.