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BA are very low. I would say the only two full armies (not counting the little ally codices) that I feel I would be at a bigger disadvantage playing with are chaos space marines and guard. And not by much.

According to general statistics, Chaos Space Marines are doing better than Blood Angels, though without actual lists to see allies and such I'm only going on vague data, so it's hard to say.

Renegades did surprisingly well, having five out of seven players making the top 50 of the LVO.

 Tinkrr wrote:
According to general statistics, Chaos Space Marines are doing better than Blood Angels, though without actual lists to see allies and such I'm only going on vague data, so it's hard to say.

Renegades did surprisingly well, having five out of seven players making the top 50 of the LVO.

"Chaos Marines lists" pretty much boil down at this point to either Nurgle Bikers & Oblits, or else a Sorcerer/Be'lakor + Cultist tax. That's it. You're lucky to see around 500-600pts at most of actual CSM units in a supposedly CSM primary detachment army!
60+% of the army is instead made up of allied Daemons and/or Heretics & Renegades.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
According to general statistics, Chaos Space Marines are doing better than Blood Angels, though without actual lists to see allies and such I'm only going on vague data, so it's hard to say.

Renegades did surprisingly well, having five out of seven players making the top 50 of the LVO.

"Chaos Marines lists" pretty much boil down at this point to either Nurgle Bikers & Oblits, or else a Sorcerer/Be'lakor + Cultist tax. That's it. You're lucky to see around 500-600pts at most of actual CSM units in a supposedly CSM primary detachment army!
60+% of the army is instead made up of allied Daemons and/or Heretics & Renegades.

While this might very well be completely true, without seeing the actual list that made the top 50 for the CSM in the LVO, we can't be certain. That's why this great list data base project I've started is so important, it can make these kind of discussions super easy when looking for a reference.

Again, it's not to say you're wrong, simply that we don't know, because that big list could have been something different than what you've listed, but neither of us know. I mean Heldrakes are pretty solid.

Tau are bottom of Tier 1 in ITC since the nerfs. If your not using ITC they could be the second best easily. I think the ITC has over nerfed them.

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are bottom of Tier 1 in ITC since the nerfs. If your not using ITC they could be the second best easily. I think the ITC has over nerfed them.

Please provide proof, raw statistics show them as comparable to Space Marines in the LVO, despite having half the amount of people running Tau as Space Marines.

The only major difference is top 8 finishes, which is again easily the result of variance as two players could have made the top 8 in the last round, but didn't.

In our local meta Necrons are high Tier 1 along with Eldar. We don't have enough Tau players to measure, so all I have to go by is hearsay.

For my armies based on my success rate, listed in order from highest to lowest left to right per tier:

Tier 1: Eldar
Tier 2: Daemons, Tyranids, Harlequins/Space Wolves (I don't play Space Wolves very often but haven't had to think as hard with them to be successful, so I put them equal to Harlequins)
Tier 3: CSM

I use more Tyrannocyte lists with my Tyranids and don't field Dakka Flyrants at all, yet am still able to hold my own with them. Not top tier by any means, but they're still competitive against most lists. My CSM is mono-Slaanesh, so that's a big contributor to the rank. I have a solid handle on Harlequin play style and have been quite competitive most of the time. My Daemons lists are also mono-Slaanesh, but I have far more regular success with them than any of the other Tier 2 armies I collect.

I run Renegades these days, so I'm not sure where my list falls on this spectrum, but I tend to think it's a better list than CSM, as far as such things can be measured.

Tier 3: CSM (with Thousand Sons, Slaanesh bikers and Forgefiend)

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are bottom of Tier 1 in ITC since the nerfs. If your not using ITC they could be the second best easily. I think the ITC has over nerfed them.

How is still being Tier 1 mean they are over-nerfed?

Everyone keeps telling me how good Codex: Space Marines is and that I shouldn't complain about the Black Templars being folded into it and receiving no support beyond a list of Warlord Traits in WD while the Imperial Fists 3rd company apparently merited a supplement. There really is no competitive reason to play Black Templars; anything we can do, someone else does better. Gravturions seems to be the only thing giving us an edge over BA, and even then we get no Psychic phase at all. We can't even utilise our full Chapter Tactics in a Gladius, because GW apparently doesn't think Crusader Squads are a thing.

I'm starting to think Martel and I should start an association of disgruntled melee loyalist players that don't play Space Wolves.

On the subject of "every Codex gets it's turn", when is it our turn?

Oops forgot to rank my own armies.

Tau - Tier 1 - I don't even enjoy playing them as much anymore, you can see the salt in people's eyes as they realize they are getting shot off the board Turn 2.

Space Wolves - Mix between T1/T2 in local meta. Lots of people don't know how to deal with thunderwolves + stormshields around here.

Tyranids - First army and I will play them until I die, Tier 3 on the list but they perform great around here in a few different scenarios. Flyrant spam is actually not as effective as some other strats due to the ungodly amount of SM players and their damn stormwings

Orks - Tier 3 but holy crap are they fun, doing exceptionally well with them in my local meta. Power Klaw all the things and get to krumpin'!

No mention of the mechanicum armies?

Black Templars did get completely hosed.

Tiers based entirely on codex do not exist. That's a false statement. Yes, most of the armies listed on top can more easily created top-tier armies than those lower on the list, but it is possible to make competitive lists without using the armies you've listed as being top-tier.

Instead, individual armies are or aren't top tier. Tyranids can put together a Flyrant-spam list or Lictor Sham, two competitive armies. However, everything else is sweet garbage when on the competitive scene. Outside the competitive scene, Tyranids are still a fine army to use, and can be a lot of fun!

I will be basing mine off the most powerful list a codex can bring by itself initially.

Eldar
Tau-Space Marine
Necron-Daemons-Mechanicus(War Conv.)-Renegade
Tyranids-Dark Angel-Space Wolf-Imperial Knight
Grey Knight-Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard-Blood Angel-Inquisition
Ork-Harlie-Chaos Space Marine
Militarum Tempestus-Assassin
Any Codices I forgot because they are so weak.

Top-Tier allied lists

Eldar&Inquisition
Eldar&Dark Eldar
Space Wolf&Dark Angel
Space Wolf&Space Marine Conclave
War Conv.
Rent-a-Pod

My main army is Necrons, which get better or worse depending on the setting you're playing in. In a competitive environment, Necrons are good, but no better than other strong armies. In the casual setting, (i.e. Among people who like to play laid back lists while using less popular options in their codexes) Necrons are kings. My gaming group all agree to that, as I mostly play casual games (without Destroyers and Wraiths) and I've lost maybe 4 games out of 30+. Even when my friends bring the cheddar (Wraithknights, Riptides, Jetbikes, ext) Necrons can still hold up really well.

 Tinkrr wrote:

optrgrow wrote:
I don't believe Tau is above Space Marines Tier 1 ITC. I have yet to see a solid objective grabbing tau team, most top lists rely on shooting and shooting which isn't a bad thing but almost no way to deal with combat and contesting. Once your stormsurge gets locked up a quarter of your points are immediately gone, if you brought 2 than half your points are locked up as early as turn 2.

I would put space marines above tau just for the fact they have access to great allies as well as delicious grav and free transports.

Isreal's 4-0-2 team was pretty strong in a non-shooting only way. The only real issue I have with it is how much Markerlights he had (list can be found in my signature in the LVO list data base).

In fact, in game 2 against Daemons, even though the game itself was super wonky, he hopped his Y'varha onto the relic so that people couldn't come in range of it, and then grabbed it the next turn, creating such a massive point lead that his opponent conceded (well because of that and other reasons for frustration).

As a whole Tau can have a super mobile list, with very powerful shooting, and pretty hard to kill units. They don't need to depend on Stormsurges or Riptides exactly, in fact Isreal's list ran no Stormsurges, and while I'm not sure about the two Tau players going for top 8 in the last round, I know one was running a double Surge list, while from the looks of it the other was FSE with Ghostkeels and the like, so again a pretty good variety. I wouldn't say they're drastically above Marines, that would be silly, but I'd say they're just slightly above them if not simply equal to them.

Why is he able to use a Y'varha when it has experimental rules?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

optrgrow wrote:
I don't believe Tau is above Space Marines Tier 1 ITC. I have yet to see a solid objective grabbing tau team, most top lists rely on shooting and shooting which isn't a bad thing but almost no way to deal with combat and contesting. Once your stormsurge gets locked up a quarter of your points are immediately gone, if you brought 2 than half your points are locked up as early as turn 2.

I would put space marines above tau just for the fact they have access to great allies as well as delicious grav and free transports.

Isreal's 4-0-2 team was pretty strong in a non-shooting only way. The only real issue I have with it is how much Markerlights he had (list can be found in my signature in the LVO list data base).

In fact, in game 2 against Daemons, even though the game itself was super wonky, he hopped his Y'varha onto the relic so that people couldn't come in range of it, and then grabbed it the next turn, creating such a massive point lead that his opponent conceded (well because of that and other reasons for frustration).

As a whole Tau can have a super mobile list, with very powerful shooting, and pretty hard to kill units. They don't need to depend on Stormsurges or Riptides exactly, in fact Isreal's list ran no Stormsurges, and while I'm not sure about the two Tau players going for top 8 in the last round, I know one was running a double Surge list, while from the looks of it the other was FSE with Ghostkeels and the like, so again a pretty good variety. I wouldn't say they're drastically above Marines, that would be silly, but I'd say they're just slightly above them if not simply equal to them.

Why is he able to use a Y'varha when it has experimental rules?

Games workshop has stated officially that "experimental rules" are now legal in normal 40k

I play Imperial Knights, so I guess I'm Tier 4?

Martel732 wrote:
BA are bottom tier. They are perhaps the worst full codex in the game. Yes, worse than CSM even.

Well, not sure. How do you play them? DC all the way?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are bottom tier. They are perhaps the worst full codex in the game. Yes, worse than CSM even.

Well, not sure. How do you play them? DC all the way?

I play them every way. I don't have 3 stormravens, but I can field just about anything else.

My armies:
Dark Angels: Probably my best army and certainly my biggest (see my sig and you will know what I mean!). Ravenwing are simply unbelievably powerful, especially since they can now take grav guns. The addition of grav alone was a vast improvement over the horrible 6th ed. codex. Add in rerollable jink saves and some of the other shenanigans they have and you will see how they are exceptional. They do have some hard counters, notably CSM Heldrake spam and pretty much anything Tau, but are still quite strong overall. And Ravenwing is not the only way to run them; the Lion's Blade strike force is pretty good as well, not to mention fun to play!

Khorne Daemonkin: These guys are solidly tier 2. They have some powerful builds but are generally suffering from Codex: CSM's problems regarding overcosted units. The Blood Tithe table is what makes them better than CSM. I consider the army a lot of fun to play, but I don't have the models for the really strong builds, so I mainly just try to enjoy myself playing them and don't worry about winning too much.

Tau: I've yet to run my Tau army, so I can't really comment here. I have faced the new Tau before (including a dreaded Stormsurge), so I don't consider them as strong as Eldar, but they definitely belong in tier 1.

Chaos Space Marines: Bottom tier all the way, unless you have plenty of Forgeworld stuff. I've never run a pure CSM army, but I've tried building lists for them in Battlescribe and I have to say everything I came up with was just not good. It just seemed like there were too few units for too many points. These guys really need an updated codex to be truly competitive.

I have 2 armies, CSM and Tyranids and both codices are big steaming piles. I would put the Nids above the CSM slightly just due to Flyrants. I have no faith that GW even gives a feth about making these armies play well, or will do anything right with either book.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think any army can be tier one with hard work and effort.

Sadly, this is not true. Not all armies are created equal.

The reason is simple. With thousands of units and wargear combinations, having a truly balanced system is impossible. There will always be specific units that are better on a per-point basis than others.

There has been a historical trend to make the newer codex's more effective per-point, which increases GW sales.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think any army can be tier one with hard work and effort.

Sadly, this is not true. Not all armies are created equal.

The reason is simple. With thousands of units and wargear combinations, having a truly balanced system is impossible. There will always be specific units that are better on a per-point basis than others.

There has been a historical trend to make the newer codex's more effective per-point, which increases GW sales.

But having a system where they are vaguely close is possible, it's just that GW doesn't see making the game balanced (other than churning out rules for models) as a viable thing, but that would require some kind of niche otiose tomfoolery, when everyone knows New Zealand Sheep are able to force shifts in the market.

Or something.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are bottom of Tier 1 in ITC since the nerfs. If your not using ITC they could be the second best easily. I think the ITC has over nerfed them.

How is still being Tier 1 mean they are over-nerfed?

You seem to be under the impression that tau should be balanced against something like chaos space marines or nids' when they should be balanced against other 7.5 codices, as eventually all books should be up to that power level.

The only tier my army has is the tears it brings me when I try to use it on the table top. The fact you have Dark Eldar as a middle tier army is laughable... Though we are still standing on the heads of the BA and CSM for the most part...

Jaxler wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are bottom of Tier 1 in ITC since the nerfs. If your not using ITC they could be the second best easily. I think the ITC has over nerfed them.

How is still being Tier 1 mean they are over-nerfed?

You seem to be under the impression that tau should be balanced against something like chaos space marines or nids' when they should be balanced against other 7.5 codices, as eventually all books should be up to that power level.

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that they weren't overly nerfed by ITC because they are still on the power level of 7.5 codexs. That's why Tau are a tier 1 army. The fact that people complain about them being "over-nerfed" when they are still one of the top armies in the game and can fight on a level equal to other 7.5 armies is ridiculous.

You forgot to put SoB at 7.5, aka the top of tier 2.