Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deadnight wrote:
Butcher 3, meet magic denial. Shut down like a boss.

Butcher3 is solid. But obvious. If a nerf cyomes his way, and I hope it's doesn't, I think it will be to push him in line with other casters, but thst equally means pushing the weaker casters 'up' into tee power curve. And the vast majority of khador casters are solid rankers, so to be honest, I don't think we'll see much movement there.

Orin Midwinter could do the trick in a Jack heavy army. In an infantry heavy army, Butcher3 has problems to get to his target anyway.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Butcher 3, meet magic denial. Shut down like a boss.

Butcher3 is solid. But obvious. If a nerf cyomes his way, and I hope it's doesn't, I think it will be to push him in line with other casters, but thst equally means pushing the weaker casters 'up' into tee power curve. And the vast majority of khador casters are solid rankers, so to be honest, I don't think we'll see much movement there.

Orin Midwinter could do the trick in a Jack heavy army. In an infantry heavy army, Butcher3 has problems to get to his target anyway.

No disagreement from me. B3 is a really fun caster, but a really obvious one. He doesn't support his army and You know what he is going to do.

Plenty ways around that, especially when so many people crutch on him instead of trying to be creative.

Deadnight wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Butcher 3, meet magic denial. Shut down like a boss.

Butcher3 is solid. But obvious. If a nerf cyomes his way, and I hope it's doesn't, I think it will be to push him in line with other casters, but thst equally means pushing the weaker casters 'up' into tee power curve. And the vast majority of khador casters are solid rankers, so to be honest, I don't think we'll see much movement there.

Orin Midwinter could do the trick in a Jack heavy army. In an infantry heavy army, Butcher3 has problems to get to his target anyway.

No disagreement from me. B3 is a really fun caster, but a really obvious one. He doesn't support his army and You know what he is going to do.

Plenty ways around that, especially when so many people crutch on him instead of trying to be creative.

B3 is quite dangerous with flashing blade and impending doom, weapon master, and 24 focus from his feat.
With my Cyriss army I sent him knock down and then tried hard to get him down in this round.
I wouldn't mind if he gets nerfed.

 wuestenfux wrote:

B3 is quite dangerous with flashing blade and impending doom, weapon master, and 24 focus from his feat.
With my Cyriss army I sent him knock down and then tried hard to get him down in this round.
I wouldn't mind if he gets nerfed.

It helps if you play right.

He gets 12 focus. In two waves of 6. Not 24.

And he kills lots of stuff. Congrats to him. It also means he is halfway up the board and entirely unsupported. He is def14 after you kill the dog, and arm24 with his max focus load. It is very, very doable. Iron mother with those auto-plinking servitors and her feedback spell. Synergy also comes to mind. As well as direct application of brute force. Clever use of terrain in blocking what can and cannot be pushed via impending doom helps enormously.

He is a huge enabler for khador. He does a lot of great things. But he is extremely obvious. And there are plenty ways of dealing with him.

Deadnight wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

B3 is quite dangerous with flashing blade and impending doom, weapon master, and 24 focus from his feat.
With my Cyriss army I sent him knock down and then tried hard to get him down in this round.
I wouldn't mind if he gets nerfed.

It helps if you play right.

He gets 12 focus. In two waves of 6. Not 24.

And he kills lots of stuff. Congrats to him. It also means he is halfway up the board and entirely unsupported. He is def14 after you kill the dog, and arm24 with his max focus load. It is very, very doable. Iron mother with those auto-plinking servitors and her feedback spell. Synergy also comes to mind. As well as direct application of brute force. Clever use of terrain in blocking what can and cannot be pushed via impending doom helps enormously.

He is a huge enabler for khador. He does a lot of great things. But he is extremely obvious. And there are plenty ways of dealing with him.

,
Sorry, I meant ARM 24 after refilling his focus by the feat.
I killed him twice, once with my Cyriss after he went knock down by the Monitor, and once with my Cryx using Banes.

My standard solution to B3 with Lucant if he is bringing the usual suspects is to jam hard with the Prime Axiom into his jack wall, bring Lucant with 6 FOC camp and Watcher up to his back where anyone who wants to get past the PA to him has to take PA free strikes, feat, and bring up the Inverter so the most obvious side to go around, a bit back, to enable interesting Watcher moves. The rest of the army also jams, preferably in Shield Wall.

Good luck Butcher. He can kill an ARM24 Colossal if he blows his whole double FOC stack, with some help from his heavies usually. Lucant will then take him down with Positive Charge on the Corollary. If he backs away, the PA kills his heavies next turn as they have a hard time killing him alone, and he then has to kill it alone, with Lucant behind it ready to do the same thing.

Usually, Khador drops something else into CoC these days.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
My standard solution to B3 with Lucant if he is bringing the usual suspects is to jam hard with the Prime Axiom into his jack wall, bring Lucant with 6 FOC camp and Watcher up to his back where anyone who wants to get past the PA to him has to take PA free strikes, feat, and bring up the Inverter so the most obvious side to go around, a bit back, to enable interesting Watcher moves. The rest of the army also jams, preferably in Shield Wall.

Good luck Butcher. He can kill an ARM24 Colossal if he blows his whole double FOC stack, with some help from his heavies usually. Lucant will then take him down with Positive Charge on the Corollary. If he backs away, the PA kills his heavies next turn as they have a hard time killing him alone, and he then has to kill it alone, with Lucant behind it ready to do the same thing.

Usually, Khador drops something else into CoC these days.

Indeed, I meant the Inverter with its macro pummler instead of the Inverter. I managed to kill him after he became stationary thanks to watcher and the Inverter. But sitting on ARM 24 is not easy to crack.
I guess that similarly to the passage from mk1 to mk2, some casters will improve and others will get nerfed.

I used to drop Denny3 into B3. Cryx cracks armor decently, and having a huge base caster (so no pull) cuts down Butchers threat range pretty well.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Sorry, I meant ARM 24 after refilling his focus by the feat.
I killed him twice, once with my Cyriss after he went knock down by the Monitor, and once with my Cryx using Banes.

Ah, gotcha! I've had him die to a bronze back.

 novaspike wrote:
Or to put this differently:

Any model you buy will still be useable in the new edition. I wouldn't buy something that goes over field allowance or heavily into a theme force, but as everyone else said, most purchases will be safe.

Sounds like an Age of Sigmar saying.

Davor wrote:

 novaspike wrote:
Or to put this differently:

Any model you buy will still be useable in the new edition. I wouldn't buy something that goes over field allowance or heavily into a theme force, but as everyone else said, most purchases will be safe.

Sounds like an Age of Sigmar saying.

Now now, no need to resort to playground insulting

I am a little concerned about the model count creeping, I would hate to see the game go all 40k/AoS with huge numbers of models for low point games

 thekingofkings wrote:
I am a little concerned about the model count creeping, I would hate to see the game go all 40k/AoS with huge numbers of models for low point games

Doubt you'll see much, if any, creep. Maybe an extra warjack or two due to the increased WJP pools, but otherwise it should be about the same. Possibly less, as I think I heard a dev talking about 75 being the new 50, rather than 100.

 thekingofkings wrote:
I am a little concerned about the model count creeping, I would hate to see the game go all 40k/AoS with huge numbers of models for low point games

It should be the opposite in fact. They're trying to make jacks in particular more central to the game rather than dudespam.

Deadnight wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
I am a little concerned about the model count creeping, I would hate to see the game go all 40k/AoS with huge numbers of models for low point games

It should be the opposite in fact. They're trying to make jacks in particular more central to the game rather than dudespam.

I would love that.

Point costs are vaguely doubled and 75 is the new 50. Your caster has 30ish warjack points. So translating that back you have about 15 points to spend on jacks before any on infantry, and then you have 38ish points to spend on infantry, solos and more jacks. Seems like smaller games to me.

It depends on how the points equal put. But 75 is the new 50. Which means that with caster points being up to thirty. They still round to rougkly 90-100. Except more of them are battlegroup based.


I wouldn't be surprised if the new edition is more skirnishy than mkII.

Zatsuku wrote:
Point costs are vaguely doubled and 75 is the new 50. Your caster has 30ish warjack points. So translating that back you have about 15 points to spend on jacks before any on infantry, and then you have 38ish points to spend on infantry, solos and more jacks. Seems like smaller games to me.

It seems that the battle group will get a boost.
In my current Cryx army i spend about 6 to 8 pts for the Battle group. The rest goes to infanrty.

There will be a creep, but so long as the changes make the game flow better, it can handle it. That said, I don't think PP has the ability to make the right changes along those lines, their idea of a bigger, streamlined game was Unbound after all. However, I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

The problem is that multiple casters really don't meld well together anyway, its when all the cheese starts to come out and its practically impossible to reign it back.

I really hope that the scale of the game is about the same as what it is now. 35 points is my current favorite, I am real worried about the game becoming another attempt at a mass battles game. That is one of the reasons I started Warmachine, it's scale was perfect for my budget and the length of game is much shorter than 40k. I can usually get a 35 point game done (as long as my opponent knows the rules as well) in about 30-45 minutes.

I like the ability to be able to play multiple games in a day against multiple opponents. Don't want to see that go away.

Well the new 50pt steamroller is now a 75pt steamroller. So the game might actually be a big smaller. Especially with the larger battlegroups that people will be forced to take to make up the warnoun points.

Reach is gone. Melee weapons have a range. 0.5inch, 1 inch (for the slayer card, and maybe jacks in general?) and 2 inches.

And Eiryss2 is practically unrecognizable. Which is good because she was too much of an autoinclude.


Large bases having a 1 inch melee ranges makes so much sense. Like we've been waiting years for this.

New Trenchers are pretty brutal (pun intended). Want to see the new tough, though.

 raverrn wrote:
New Trenchers are pretty brutal (pun intended). Want to see the new tough, though.

Apparently, tough has got a kicking, in that you get one tough roll per turn, but don't get knocked down.

Punch of salt though.

Unless I mishead, they said that you tough, but then are unable to make tough checks if knocked down.

I'm sure that'll be coupled with a bunch of units/solos losing the ability to be steady all the time.

You can only make a tough roll if you're not knocked down.

Surefoot got a little more interesting. edit: theoretically of course

Looking at the changes, I am interested to get into WMH again. Kind of burned out that the lists gets stale and some of the choices seemed useless. Along with that, both the Jacks/Caster and Beasts/locks seem to have 'uneven' power curves to each other during the game where the Warlock seemed to be powerful early-to-mid games but pieters out when all your beasts are dead and have to cut for Fury. And how the current Focus mechanic seems to pushed away from taking jacks (but that is depending on Caster) but makes the caster harder (in some cases almost impossible to kill) if they camp Focus. So I am kind of glad they are balancing those mechanics out.

Hah, is it sad that what I am most excited for is that Kossites might be viable in the new edition, and that we are getting an Iron Fang Warcaster (well, used to be an Iron Fang).