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That's precisely right! Miniature tabletop gaming is a niche. A very small niche and naturally, there's always going to be a very high mortality rate for new products/franchises trying to establish a foothold therein.

In AVP's case, it seems to be poisoned by how they've handled the KS backers. The massive delays in shipping their stuff waaaaay after retail product has destroyed community goodwill and made a lot of vocal enemies.

Lol. It took 35+ emails for me to get anywhere with Prodos. Some people even more. I've put about 2 models together from that game.

Some people spent a good few hundred dollars on it and have seen bugger all 2yrs later.

It's a shame if Terminator isn't doing well because it's a really nicely designed game and a lot of fun. Some of the miniatures that have come out for it are awesome as well, and if you have a 40k tabletop the chances are you already have themed terrain that will fit!

Wayland have an offer on at the moment, can't recommend it enough for £40
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/2474-terminator-genisys-the-war-against-the-machines

 jasper76 wrote:
One man's "classic" franchise is another man's "outdated" franchise.

There hasn't been a good Terminator movie since the first Terminator movie. There hasn't been a good Predator movie since the first Predator movie. Robotech was a niche franchise even when it was current when I was a kid, although admittedly I don't know if that franchise continued to produce material since then.

I would argue that T2 is one of the best films ever made (and a massive favourite of mine), but I take your point, if you're anyone younger than 25-30 your experience of those franchises is not going to be the same as someone who is 35+.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lol. It took 35+ emails for me to get anywhere with Prodos. Some people even more. I've put about 2 models together from that game.

Some people spent a good few hundred dollars on it and have seen bugger all 2yrs later.

Very similar situation with Robotech.

As others have said, the danger of KS is everyone who is really interested gets it from the KS and then retail sales are non-existent.

I have seen it way too many times with KS, it is practically a cautionary tale now!

 jasper76 wrote:
One man's "classic" franchise is another man's "outdated" franchise.

I think that's a big factor. Another is nostalgia. Nostalgia drives the demand for these games, but nostalgia for what? Can a tabletop game recreate that same feeling we had in our youth when watching the Terminator relentlessly hunt down Sarah Connor? Or the oppressiveness of the jungle with an invisible stalker hunting Arnold?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Another problem is a lot of these universes are kind of limited, so the games are limited as well. Star Wars or Star Trek have decades of background and universes the size of well... the universe. Batman's been around 75 years and has a playground the size of the multiverse!

This is very true. Investing time into a dead-end franchise (in terms of models) is something that I generally would not do. Another issue is that while a lot of the models are not bad, they are not so exceptional that I think, OMG, GOTTA HAVE!

These games are 30 years too late.

They missed out on the pen and paper gaming era and missed out on their window of opportunity where the IPs were part of the pop culture gestalt.

In the meantime dedicated tabletop games have been made that act as an aggregate for 80s pop culture, so many people who would have been interested already have that itch scratched.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
In AVP's case, it seems to be poisoned by how they've handled the KS backers. The massive delays in shipping their stuff waaaaay after retail product has destroyed community goodwill and made a lot of vocal enemies.

I can attest to the KS. They PULLED it off of KS to continue the show. There are updates to be sure, but in the realm of the IP, I have a feeling that the Fox yes sir may I that I see going on, as in Prodos having to get a nod on every little thing has a lot to do with the delays.

As a former Prodos hate machine representative, I can say that I was not particularly impressed by their services/ company, but the figures themselves that I have received are top notch.

To me, the IP was toxic to begin with. Prodos should not have taken the bait, and brought the amount of internal issues of being a licensee/ parent IP holder relationship with someone as dubious as FOX. hell, when you see someone as high up as Ridley Scott having issue with the FOX company, it should give one the notice that they are in it for the long haul with a company of FOX's reputation of being donkey caves.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1275451/ip-dispute

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16687.phtml

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=367018

http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=45429&start=300

 Easy E wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Lol. It took 35+ emails for me to get anywhere with Prodos. Some people even more. I've put about 2 models together from that game.

Some people spent a good few hundred dollars on it and have seen bugger all 2yrs later.

Very similar situation with Robotech.

As others have said, the danger of KS is everyone who is really interested gets it from the KS and then retail sales are non-existent.

I have seen it way too many times with KS, it is practically a cautionary tale now!

IMO, that's more a danger if you treat the kickstarter as a pre order engine than as a way to secure funding, which is fairly problematic with this industry. A lot of people don't feel it's 'worth' getting into a game that's had a massive kickstarter because a lot of the bonuses will never hit retail. Limited Edition models are pretty standard with normal retail products, but when some kickstarters give out more limited edition product than what they were actually seeking funding for, people start to question value for money or even if they're getting a complete product at retail.

Loki- I see where you're coming from. A lot of people have expressed your sentiments (ie, if you missed the Kickstarter, you missed the game and Kickstarters are taking sales away from local game stores).

The market numbers I've seen do not reflect this even a little bit. I'm using the ICv2 numbers that give us the hobby store retail numbers in North America (I don't have stats on other regions).

Huge Kickstarters with loads of exclusives can go on to do extremely well at retail (like Blood Rage and each incarnation of Zombicide).

The past 7 years have each seen growth in Hobby Store sales. That started before KS became the beast that it is, but it shows that these stores and games are continuing to thrive in a post-Kickstarter market.

Now, not all kickstarter projects do well after release. A good number of them are actually rather poor games, or deliver sub-standard products. Also, some of them are leaving kickstarter into flooded market genres.

Tabletop Wargames are probably the hardest market to break into and maintain. There are only a few games that you could just go into a random store and expect to find minis and play games- and even those aren't universal.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Tabletop Wargames are probably the hardest market to break into and maintain. There are only a few games that you could just go into a random store and expect to find minis and play games- and even those aren't universal.

Not limited to Kickstarter games, either.

For a game to take root, it needs folks pushing for it. (Or, in the case of Kings of War, their main competition committing market suicide.)

Someone willing to run games and demonstrations - and not eat up the free time of the manager.

The Auld Grump