Am I really a painting snob?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Eilif**

Thunderfrog wrote:

To offer the other perspective.

Playing table-top miniature games is an experience wholly unlike anything in an RTS or other video game, and some people really enjoy the gaming aspect.

It's easy to spend 30 minutes clipping and assembling a squad with no paint, primer, or sanding/line removal.

It's not easy to find a way to paint that army if you are a terrible painter, don't want to pay someone else to do it, or don't know what you want your final army list to look like.

For those folks, (I was one), it can be hard to fathom why some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?

I've never been denied a game based on paint, but I've seen someone do it, and the rest of the stores response was like.. "Oh. Look at Mr. Fancy pants. Fine, he can not play a game."

We are a close-knit group, and took it as insult he told a really nice guy to bugger off because his plastic wasn't pretty.

Overall, I'm tolerant of any gaming preferences. Just thought I'd offer perspective.

Are you a snob? Probably not.
Are you elitist? Maybe. Not associating with others who don't meet your standards is kinda the definition of the word.
Are you doing something wrong? Nope!

Well said. It's a very good example of the perspective that views a miniature wargame essentially as a more open-ended board game with no board. This is an entirely valid point of view. For the individual whose primary desire is just to play a game with interesting playing pieces and a rich background, painting is at best secondary, and very possibly not even on their radar.

However, for those of us who entered the hobby for the "Spectacle of Painted armies on beautiful terrain" (which I contend is the long held tradition of wargaming) such a point of view is so foreign as to represent at least a different branch of the hobby and perhaps an entirely different hobby altogether.

**Geordie**

The tl;dr answer is ‘your house, your rules’.

The long answer is this. I like painting. I like modelling, and converting. I have no problems spending 3 or 4 hours painting a model that might not even have a game system or rules profile to play it with – in other words, I enjoy painting models for their own sakes. Strangely, what made me realise this was deciding to re-paint my Circle of Orboros army, and then going to a WMH tourney a few years ago, with my army in the middle of ‘reconstruction’ –the army I was fielding was a mix of ‘first draft’ painted models (ie yet to be stripped/repainted), stripped and repainted models (new scheme, more experience/skill so generally a lot ‘better’), and some stripped and greenstuffed conversion-in-progress models that had yet to be painted. As you can imagine, the mix of painted (with 2 paint schemes!) and unpainted was quite jarring and unsatisfying, and afterwards, I swore to myself to never play with unpainted models again. I have kept to that vow. I don’t mind playing against unpainted stuff, but have an overwhelming preference to play against painted models.

Now, when I read your OP, and all I can do is smile Gordie. I want to buy you a beer. And yes, I really mean that. I often feel that gamers are their own worst enemies – we can be a very toxic and bitter community and should come with a ‘hazardous’ label. I think intertia and a lack of proactivity is one of the greatest faults of our community – too many people would rather just sit back and complain, rather than doing anything about it. And here you are, having a ‘vision’ for the game you want to play, for the people you want to play against, and for the type of community you want to be a part of, and what’s more, you went out and made it happen. You built it. That’s it, right there. That’s what I’m always harping on about. Kudos. And not only that – you’ve taken ownership/control of your games and built a community from your home. I’ve gotten into arguments with people online who stated how you simply cant build a community from home. I bet you’ll also start spouting such apparent ‘nonsense’ as communicating with your opponents, co-operating to make fair match ups and other ‘guff’. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, when it comes to the hobby, you are doing it right.

And you have a bunch of ‘restrictions’. Painted armies? Agreed. See above. I have no issues playing against unpainted models, but much rather painted stuff. It adds so much more to the game, and frankly, I feel people are missing out by skipping the painting and modelling (and I say that as a ‘grown up’ with limited time to paint/hobby. I appreciate though not everyone has the time to paint everything to an ‘excellent’ standard ( I certainly don’t!), but so long as ‘some’ effort has gone in, and it looks a somewhat decent ‘table top standard’, you’ll never hear a complaint from me.

No proxies? Generally yes but with caveats. ‘this coke can is a dreadnought’? fair enough. Im against that kind of malarkey. That said, its not cut and dried. I hope you are open to conversions (the line between proxy/conversion can be quite fine at times..). Similarly, alternative third party models that look identical/better’ is a big one for me. Anvil Industry’s Black Ops (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/Black-Ops/Black-Ops-Fireteam) are amazing stand-ins for Space Marines their Republic and Unity Council infantry (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/AFTERLIFE/Republic/Republic-Grenadiers) or Dreamforge’s Eisenkern infantry (http://dreamforge-games.com/collections/infantry/products/eisenkern-stormtroopers-20-man-set) would do great for carapace armoured guard, Space Marine Scouts or Stormtroopers. Frankly, there are some amazing model lines out there and I think its an absolute shame to arbitrarily ban some of these for the simple reason that they don’t have a ‘GW’ stamp on their bums, when they’re perfectly adequate for purpose, and frankly, look absolutely stellar. Then there are the usual exceptions to ‘no proxies’, ranging from ‘Oh damn, I forgot my Chaplain’ to ‘mind if I try something silly’ and use X instead of Y?

No WAAC players? Yup. Surprisingly, I have to agree with you here. I love tournaments, but make a distinction between being ‘competitive’ and being ‘waac’. Competitive is fine. Competitive is great. However, ‘all the competitive, all of the time’ can get tiresome and leads to rapid burnout, if you ask me. However, WAAC players are distinct from ‘competitive’ – they’re a distinct subset of gamers that exist across every spectrum, whether it is casual at all costs scrubs or noobstalking win at all costs PITAs. Its got nothing to do with casual, or competitive, and everything to do with lousy social dynamics, bullying, selfish, smug and condescending attitudes and frankly, its not something I get involved with out of choice. As you say, its about enjoying the hobby with cool looking armies on cool boards played at a chilled pace while having a laugh (and a beer sometimes!).

Age limit? Yup. I’m in my thirties (just). I don’t want to play around kids or teenagers, generally. With respect, I find I am at a point in my life where I have a lot less in common with college ‘kids’ and much prefer hanging out with my peers who are at the same place as I am in life and who I have more in common with. You get older, your perspective changes – that sort of thing.

As you say, it’s about enjoying the hobby with cool looking armies on cool boards played at a chilled pace while having a laugh with mates, and maybe a few beers (or tea). You’d be surprised how much easing off on the ‘arms race’ gets ‘dormant’ players out of the woodwork, and gets ‘extinct’ players active and involved with the game. We mainly play with a group of 4 at a friend’s house on Friday evenings – mainly historicals but some sci-fi and so on. We very much embrace the ‘home brew’ and ‘laid back’ approach and if anything, a more sedate pace is quite a refreshing change for me. Last few weeks have been painting evenings, and I’ve gotten loads of my LOTR ‘historicals’ done. Another group of people I play with are fellow WMH players. I got talking to them after a masters a few years ago, and we all found ourselves, by coincidence to be in the same place in life. Wives, girlfriends, dogs, kids, mortgages, jobs, other hobbies/interests/commitments, and none of us had the time to properly ‘chase the WMH meta’ and being honest, none of us were entirely enjoying the experience of playing against some of the ‘big sharks’ that swim in the tank– they’re nice guys, but play at a level/pace/intensity and understanding that is beyond us frankly and which none of us really enjoy or have the time/interest to keep pace with. And over the course of a few conversations and traded numbers we ended up with us folks meeting up regularly for ‘game days’ amongst ourselves, and playing at a more laid back pace in a friendly environment, sometimes at stores, sometimes at homes. We’ve got a few new guys coming into it through this way too, and its really enjoyable. As you say, the numbers you get by approaching it this way are quite surprising – you have a dozen players actively involved, or semi-involed, or working on projects. We probably have the same, if not more. The fact you do it in a more remote location is all the more impressive in terms of what you have built.

So long as what you are doing doesn’t become some kind of ‘elitist club’ there shouldn’t be any issues. I don’t think you are being unfair, but I can see why people might not want to join – again, ‘play with likeminded folks’ works generally, but for some, your way of playing mightn’t be their idea of ‘fun’. And they’re not necessarily wrong.

All I can say is keep it up Gordie. If you find yourself near Edinburgh, send me a message. There’s a beer in it.

I might take you up on that!! Were looking at Iceland this year and traveling up from Newcastle to Edinburgh for the night - ha be careful what you wish for!!!

I agree with almost all of what you say - we talk about games and pre-arrange list so its a cool battle. We get to use the other 90% of units that the internet tells us are rubbish because in our environment most things are useful! I here you about WAAC vs Competitive, just talk about what you want out of the game first, solves almost every issue! its simple really.

As i say the proxie thing is something i need to think about...

Thank you for the kind words and when it comes to beers i'm not a snob, a bud will do nicely!

**SagesStone**

I wouldn't say it's snobby, but it's always nice to see fully painted armies over unpainted plastic. Even better if they've done a really good job, but not everyone has the time to bring a fully painted army to play. I certainly don't so I counteracted this by moving to low model armies since I almost refuse to field unpainted models but actually want to get some games still.

But I also don't mind unpainted plastic if they're not a jerk, and it's still nice to see a half painted army slowly get completed anyway.

**Geordie**

I'd not be interested in a club that required all GW minis, but still I'm tempted to say no snobbery. However, before I commit, I'd be curious to hear you clarify what you mean by.

- "I would even decline those who do the 'technically' 3 colour minimum paint job". Did people know ahead of time you had specific standards for the degree of painting required? Exactly how well does a mini have to be painted to be allowed on the table and how well are those standards enumerated and understood?

and

- "No Proxies" Does this simply mean that everything is WYSIWYG in terms of gear, armament and size, or does it also mean only GW figures and no alternate figures at all? Would Victoria or Anvil Industries figures be acceptable? Would properly converted historical models or models from other games that meet a 40k aesthetic and satisfy WYSIWYG be acceptable? What about scratchbuilds?

What i am getting at with the three colour thing is i don't really consider models with a blue undercoat, green base and a red helmet 'painted' in my sense of the word. I'm not interested in playing against an army that technically is painted with three colours in the literal sense just to satisfy a requirement, i.e. they player is not interested at all in any painting standard and has just slapped any three colours on to satisfy the requirement. Beyond this we have no defined standard, maybe that will be an issue in the future but for now everyone 'gets it' - perhaps because we slap a big sign up saying 'Fully Painted Only' that we therefore attract players who don't need this explaining

As I mentioned before, we really haven't decided on alternatives / scratch builds but always open to discussions. Weapon proxies are fine and really don't break the immersion (as long as its not over done) but model proxies (this dreadnought is actually a contemptor) is not what we are about.

**Jacksmiles**

Being on here is corrupting me, I swear. Or maybe it's just a natural thing and it's happening as I grow up (regarding the hobby

). I've only been doing anything 40k-related since this January, and have been going to school full time and working full time alongside it. So I haven't had much time to hobby, really. Imagine my excitement when my FLGS allows grey models in events! Considering I started 40k to play the game with my friends, that sounded perfect to me. I got some models built and went to a 1000 point event.

It was a lot of fun. I'm still learning the rules and stuff but people were okay with it. Very inclusive. Fantastic!

I started looking at more and more models that were painted, and decided I wanted to start painting my stuff up. It's a slow process due to lack of time (but I'm about to have more with the semester ending). Regardless, I want my models to look good (even though I'm a gak painter right now). As an aside, painting the models was always part of the plan, I was just happy to be able to play before they were fully done. My friends and I talk about how we want to paint our stuff fairly often, so none of us have a "permanent grey is okay" mentality.

However, what I really didn't expect was to start disliking playing the game AGAINST grey models. I've been to 3 events (all 1000 point narrative events), and this last one, I really realized that I had totally different emotional and mental responses when I played against an opponent with painted models versus playing against opponents that have everything unpainted. I didn't think I would become this, because I've always thought of myself as "just a gamer," so the hobby side wouldn't be as big a deal for me if my opponent was all grey, regardless of my own army. How wrong I was. And I feel hypocritical saying it because my stuff still isn't done (fielded a grey wraithlord and some dire avengers that are only primed). Yet I do feel there's a difference between WIP and straight-up not doing it. My primed wraithknight is waiting for me to start painting it, doing so is my graduation gift to myself haha.

Here's hoping more is painted when I start going to 1500 and 1850 point events (for me and my opponents)!

Of course, because I'm okay with WIP, my friends' armies are perfectly fine to me, and because they're my friends, I'm going to enjoy the games no matter what! Banter > anything, as far as I'm concerned

WYSIWYG isn't required at the LGS either, and this I'm okay with for now. Learning the game means I want to bring different loadouts sometimes, so I just put it in my list and make sure my opponent knows what is what. However, I am working on making my models WYSIWYG as quickly as I can. So again, it's my WIP brain going "This is okay for now." My friends are WYSIWYG'ing their hearts out, bless them.

The only problem I've had with proxies was one guy (in the event no less) actually had just a thin piece of corkboard as a proxy. Nothing on top. And then he says "I love this being the proxy because people forget it's there." Yes, they do, because there's literally nothing there. Ugh.

Otherwise I don't have a problem with proxies if we both know what it is and it actually looks feasible (not coke can drop pods, unless it's a casual game where you want to try something out before buying and we talk about it beforehand). For example, for chaos furies, GW has been out since like Wulfen released, so I have some Reaper models I'm painting as proxy. Definitely believable as chaos furies!

**Big P**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Big P wrote:
Im firmly in the snob camp then.

Never played with unpainted figures and never will... wouldn't let them on my table either. Luckily my gaming comrades all have the same attitude and we have enough stuff to play while painting up new projects. Plus plenty of stuff for anyone new to use until they have stuff done.

Its gotta look pretty. Otherwise, may as well be a board game.

We are mainly historical gamers though, so that may be a defining difference. Historical gamers don't tend to use unpainted stuff really from what Ive seen over the last few decades.

That's been my experience too.

Unpainted armies never seemed to be a problem in a club that was mainly based on historicals. There wasn't even a stated rule. Everyone just took it for granted that we played games with painted figures.

I remember various sessions of madly painting units to get them ready for games the next day, force drying them very carefully in a slightly warm oven. When I came to 40K I did the same.

In my role-playing experience too, people used to paint their figures. Of course it's far less of a job to do half a dozen models than a whole army.

To be fair, I have not often come across 40K players who hadn't painted their army or at least were over half-way through the process. I suspect the people who genuinely won't do it at all are a small minority.

Yes... Even the 40k chaps in our group paint it before use (and are some of the most strict on such things)... But they are also historical gamers.... and indeed its not a rule as you say, its never even been thought to use unpainted stuff. So its never been an issue as its one that's never arisen to be discussed... We do tend to play at each others houses, but the same applies when we play at the club too.

Also with historical stuff, if it wasn't painted you'd be hard pushed to tell some armies apart...

Plus for me... the visual is a big thing;

**Desubot**

Sounds reasonable to me. its your House and its your rules.

its the experience you wanted your group to have

so more power to you.

**Krinsath**

Big P wrote:

Yes... Even the 40k chaps in our group paint it before use (and are some of the most strict on such things)... But they are also historical gamers.... and indeed its not a rule as you say, its never even been thought to use unpainted stuff. So its never been an issue as its one that's never arisen to be discussed... We do tend to play at each others houses, but the same applies when we play at the club too.

Also with historical stuff, if it wasn't painted you'd be hard pushed to tell some armies apart...

Plus for me... the visual is a big thing

...Damnit Big P, keep your illustrations of awesome work that I will never be able to rival in the Historical forums! Stop making me feel inadequate as a painter elsewhere on Dakka!

And yes, I have a dislike of using models that are not painted as well, though I don't enforce that on an opponent depending on other factors. If you're an adult, I have less tolerance for the "3 colors" Geordie mentioned, though I'm going to suspend that if I know the reasoning on why; military and emergency services guys I'll give a pass to barring just donkey-cave behavior in other areas because their time is often not their own. If you're a kid (which I realize is a moot point with the OP) then I'm a little more flexible on what's "painted" because I don't want to push people away from the hobby for the crime of "wrongfun" and new blood is generally a good thing for the hobby. It means more players, more games and more new toys for me.

**Geordie**

Post 2016/05/10 14:58:59 Subject: Am I really a painting snob?

To offer the other perspective.

Playing table-top miniature games is an experience wholly unlike anything in an RTS or other video game, and some people really enjoy the gaming aspect.

It's easy to spend 30 minutes clipping and assembling a squad with no paint, primer, or sanding/line removal.

It's not easy to find a way to paint that army if you are a terrible painter, don't want to pay someone else to do it, or don't know what you want your final army list to look like.

For those folks, (I was one), it can be hard to fathom why some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?

I've never been denied a game based on paint, but I've seen someone do it, and the rest of the stores response was like.. "Oh. Look at Mr. Fancy pants. Fine, he can not play a game."

We are a close-knit group, and took it as insult he told a really nice guy to bugger off because his plastic wasn't pretty.

Overall, I'm tolerant of any gaming preferences. Just thought I'd offer perspective.

Are you a snob? Probably not.
Are you elitist? Maybe. Not associating with others who don't meet your standards is kinda the definition of the word.
Are you doing something wrong? Nope!

Firstly thanks for putting your perspective over in a friendly way!

Your post kinda highlights why the two different perspectives clash sometimes. "some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?" for some of us that's only 50% (or less) of the reason, it might be 100% of the reason for you but not for everyone.

Now i don't know how the guy you mentioned approached the situation but if he was disrespectful and belittling to the player with the unpainted army then F**k that guy. I'd kick him out of our group painted or not. But if he explained politely his preference for painted games then for the most part i'm with the painted guy, having to sit through hours of game your not going to enjoy because the consequence of politely declining is to be ostracized doesn't sound like a good time to me. Having said that if your store is a predominantly unpainted, then by going there only looking for painted games he is putting himself in a position where is preference may cause offence to be taken and he should really be looking for a like minded group - or start his own!!

**oni**

@Geordie: I think it's perfectly reasonable. Honestly, I'm the exact same way and have tried to influence my friends to take on this manner of thinking. I have had a tiny amount of friction with my friends on the matter, but they're reasonable and wholly understand the desire to have fully painted armies battle on beautiful terrain/scenery. The downside is that some people started to get somewhat alienated and it was, overall, more important to have fun with my friends. So the compromise became...

Painted models have the special rule Preferred Enemy (Unpainted Models).

As long as everyone is respectful, this works nicely in that it still allows everyone to field their new purchase, while promoting the idea of having fully painted armies.

**Yodhrin**

Geordie wrote:
Our proxie rules are no model proxies but weapon proxies are ok as long as its not every weapon, I generally run 95% - 100% WYSIWYG

I get the proxy thing, maybe we are a bit harsh with that but I didn't want to slap arbitrary limits on how many times something could be used and monitor it. It's kind just become the norm now that there are no proxies...

You'll have to clarify though, what do you mean by "proxy"? Because people seem to use it interchangeably to mean both "this flamer is actually a plasma gun, this other flamer is actually a meltagun, and this missile launcher is actually a flamer, mmkay?" and "I'm going to use my own conversion/a third-party model which resembles Official Thing instead of Official Thing". If you restrict the former, fine, sure, but if it's the latter and you mostly only permit Official(tm) GW(tm) Miniatures(tm) then yeah, to my mind that's bordering on snobbery. EDIT: Sorry, have now caught up with the thread: yeah, based on what you've said that's not a group I'd play with personally - asking people not to use coke cans as tanks or action figures as Wraithknights is one thing but for my money anything beyond that borders on unreasonable, and going so far as to require someone to buy and use only the specific official GW model for any given unit entry...wow, that's pretty uptight. Like folk have said, it's your club on your property so what you say goes, but yeah, not somewhere I'd want(or indeed, given the number of conversions and third party models I use, be able to) play.

As for WYSIWYG, that one always makes me a bit leery. It's supposed to be a guideline to keep play fluid, sticking to it religiously whether the resulting model is distinct enough to be what its owner is claiming it to be or not just stifles people's creativity when it comes to conversions IMO.

We

I don't mind requiring me to paint my armies but if you criticise my paint job or give me flak for using three colors I'm out. (I usually have no problem with this but I have a life. I work I have kids etc. Most of my armies are painted but if I buy something new and want to play with it gray or primed and you get an issue then we aren't gaming together.

I get that playing an all gray unprimed army sucks but when you see how many miniatures I have painted and the level of my paintings you will see I try. I am not rushing a paint job just to field a unit. I have been in this hobby for 25 years and plan to be in it until I die. I take my time painting because a model lasts a lifetime. It gets painted when I am ready and may or may not be partially painted when I field it.

**Kap'n Krump**

I would initially expect that you wouldn't have much participation in demanding fully painted armies, but you said you have like 8 guys, so it's clearly not a problem for you.

I personally have no issue with playing against unpainted armies, though I generally prefer painted. But it's all make-believe anyways, so it doesn't make a huge difference to me.

**Silent Puffin?**

StraightSilver wrote:

If I were part of your group I wouldn't have been able to play a game for at least 6 months and that would have been at best about 500pts.

A defined goal will help you get your stuff painted though. Every model that I have used for a very long time has been fully painted and based. This means that if I want to field something I need to paint it, no grey plastic nor hasty undercoats allowed.

This thread has been a great help to me getting stuff done. I have probably painted around 100 miniatures since Christmas, enough to fill 3 shelves in a display cabinet anyway, despite working full time, studying for an MSc and having a young family so if I can make time for painting toy soldiers virtually anyone can.

If I still lived in the North East and I still played 40K I would be looking to join your group Geordie

**coldgaming**

I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

**Yodhrin**

coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

Well quite, quite. We wouldn't want any of those peasants involved in our hobby, wot wot? Ye gads man, they might get the idea they're capable of holding high office or owning land! Fahfahfahfahfah.

**Grimtuff**

coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

How dare someone want to save money? I personally think Chaos Hounds subbed for Flesh Hounds look quite spiffy.

**Eilif**

Geordie wrote:
I'd not be interested in a club that required all GW minis, but still I'm tempted to say no snobbery. However, before I commit, I'd be curious to hear you clarify what you mean by.

- "I would even decline those who do the 'technically' 3 colour minimum paint job". Did people know ahead of time you had specific standards for the degree of painting required? Exactly how well does a mini have to be painted to be allowed on the table and how well are those standards enumerated and understood?

and

- "No Proxies" Does this simply mean that everything is WYSIWYG in terms of gear, armament and size, or does it also mean only GW figures and no alternate figures at all? Would Victoria or Anvil Industries figures be acceptable? Would properly converted historical models or models from other games that meet a 40k aesthetic and satisfy WYSIWYG be acceptable? What about scratchbuilds?

What i am getting at with the three colour thing is i don't really consider models with a blue undercoat, green base and a red helmet 'painted' in my sense of the word. I'm not interested in playing against an army that technically is painted with three colours in the literal sense just to satisfy a requirement, i.e. they player is not interested at all in any painting standard and has just slapped any three colours on to satisfy the requirement. Beyond this we have no defined standard, maybe that will be an issue in the future but for now everyone 'gets it' - perhaps because we slap a big sign up saying 'Fully Painted Only' that we therefore attract players who don't need this explaining

As I mentioned before, we really haven't decided on alternatives / scratch builds but always open to discussions. Weapon proxies are fine and really don't break the immersion (as long as its not over done) but model proxies (this dreadnought is actually a contemptor) is not what we are about.

This all seems reasonable and fiarly non-snobbish. I agree with your general feeling regarding the 3-color slap-on-paint. Much like you all, we've never had to enforce it. We definitely have different levels of painting ability. Some are are a bit crude and some don't like scenic basing,, but so far everyone seems to understand the spirit of "painted only" and no one has tried to sneak basically unpainted figs on the table by dabbing 3 colors on a mini.

As for the proxy thing, it seems like you are on the right track, though I think that well-done alternate models (that represent the subject matter properly) and scratcbuilds and the flavor and creativity they bring are part of what makes this hobby great. At our club we're almost more insistent on WYSIWYG than those who play games where the models are prescribed. The flexible rulesets we use tend to allow a player to accurately stat a model based on how it is equipped. This open-endedness makes it even more important that the stats reflect the model so as not to confuse the opponent.

Of course many of the rulesets (Kings of War is a good example) are abstracted enough that a unit can be equipped or represented in quite a number of ways while still staying true to the statline.

**Deadnight**

Geordie wrote:

I might take you up on that!! Were looking at Iceland this year and traveling up from Newcastle to Edinburgh for the night - ha be careful what you wish for!!!
I agree with almost all of what you say - we talk about games and pre-arrange list so its a cool battle. We get to use the other 90% of units that the internet tells us are rubbish because in our environment most things are useful! I here you about WAAC vs Competitive, just talk about what you want out of the game first, solves almost every issue! its simple really.
As i say the proxie thing is something i need to think about...
Thank you for the kind words and when it comes to beers i'm not a snob, a bud will do nicely!

Oh, ffs – someone else going to Iceland!? (Humourous, tongue-in-cheek and joking rant incoming!) I’m seriously sick of this at this point. Everyone’s going to Iceland. Myself and Mrs.Deadnight went a few years ago (before anyone else we knew, mind!) – it was our first holiday, and we went before it was cool! And since then, virtually all our friends, and most of the people I work with have gone to Iceland. And now random internet strangers are getting in on the act! Damned hipsters, wannabes and bandwagon jumpers, the lot of you! Humourous rant/off. But seriously, if you are going, make sure you visit the blue lagoon and do the golden circle tour. Iceland takes a wee bit of getting used to, as everything smells of fart (all the sulphur). It’s a stunning country and well worth a visit.

And for what it’s worth, Mrs.Deadnight heads down to Newcastle often enough for the football (sunderland fan when it comes to the English leagues), and I nearly got a job there once – I seriously need to pop down again for a trip and visit that little wall that yer man Hadrian built.

Seriously though, the offer for a beer is legit. Just let me know when/if you’re popping by. It won’t be a bud though – lets drink something proper!

**jreilly89**

Grimtuff wrote:
coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

How dare someone want to save money? I personally think Chaos Hounds subbed for Flesh Hounds look quite spiffy.

Aye, they're what I use and I think they're better than the regular ones. The regular Flesh Hounds look downright silly

**coldgaming**

Yodhrin wrote:
coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

Well quite, quite. We wouldn't want any of those peasants involved in our hobby, wot wot? Ye gads man, they might get the idea they're capable of holding high office or owning land! Fahfahfahfahfah.

How many times do I have to write "at least for myself" for it to be read?

**Jacksmiles**

Oh, dear boy, it matters not a whit, the peasants can't read!

**Eilif**

coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

Interesting. "Proxy" is a loaded term, but I think that as long as the substitute model is a good representation of the type, size, equipment, and armament and is painted, then it's probably a good thing. Not only is it great to save money in this sometimes costly hobby, it's great to see something new and interesting on the table. I'd much rather see an interesting alternate model (or alternate army) than more of the same-old-same-old.

I think that a painting standard can actually make substitute models more acceptable. When you slap down a random unpainted model and say it's something it isn't then it can be a glaring distraction and your opponent is likely to think that you are just proxying for advantage. However, when the substitute model is painted and based to match the rest of the army, it usually ends up looking "Characterful and unique". It also settles the suspicion that the person using it is just proxying for advantage or engaging in WAAC list tailoring.

I think this is why the old GW "Vehicle Design Rules" stated that a VDR model should be finished and painted before playing. A model that's been based and painted represents an investment of time more significant than will usually be put up by someone who just wants to put something on the table that is more advantageous to the game than what their army currently contains.

**coldgaming**

Grimtuff wrote:
coldgaming wrote:
I don't require anything from other people but I agree about a hardline on proxies, at least for myself. I think it's lame to say these chaos warhounds are flesh hounds, or this cheap dragon I bought is Archaon/Gordrakk/a Stardrake etc. I think conversions/alternative army themes etc are great, but proxies purely to save money are lame. At least for myself.

How dare someone want to save money? I personally think Chaos Hounds subbed for Flesh Hounds look quite spiffy.

I think with the added work of the collars they're fine, and I agree. What I meant was subbing one off the shelf model for another. If you had done no work on the warhounds and called them flesh hounds, I'd be fine to play it, I just wouldn't do that myself, just as I'm fine to play unpainted armies but won't play with unpainted minis myself.

**Phydox**

If your donating the time to create the group and providing the place to play, I can't see anyone thinking they don't have to follow your rules/guidelines. If they don't want to follow the group's rules, then don't come.

You created the group because you enjoy playing games using painted models. Why create a group and donate your house to play games that aren't going to be enjoyable to you?

I actually have a friend who feel the same way as you-he can't stand playing against unpainted models or terrain. He's only been in the hobby maybe two years but everything is painted. He always gets on me about fielding painted models. Its actually good because it pushes me to paint. I've gotten a lot of stuff finished because of my friend's attitude.

But honestly, playing with painted models on a painted board and terrain is the way to go. Its like the apex of this hobby. When we started, I was using towels and flowerpots as terrain and he said "no no no this isn't gonna do." and over time we really kicked butt and got ourselves nice terrain and even those tiles from Secret Weapon. Playing against unpainted stuff and using flower pots doesn't bother me, but seeing our gaming table now? Wow, we have really come a long way in two years, and I hate to say it but the experience is better.

Good for you for keeping it real.

**Alex Kolodotschko**

Here's a quote from Oni, requoting me from back in 2009:
"It's hard to get excited and inspired by hunkering down behind a pepper pot or taking the wine cork objective at the top of that enormous book, not to mention taking dangerous terrain tests on the slippery surface of a glossy magazine." (Alex Kolodotschko, Dakka Dakka) This quote about sums it all up.

A fully painted table and models is what sets this game apart from any other strategy game.
Likeminded people get to play with me on this.....

I'm not going through all of this effort to play against the grey hordes.

**TheCustomLime**

It's not snobbery. You set up a club with a vision of a certain kind of experience for your players and set up minimum standards for them to meet. If players disagree with your standards then they are free to join another club. I actually wholeheartedly agree with your rules as 40k has no other appeal to me as a game other than the visuals/lore.

**Polonius**

I'm not sure it isn't snobby, but I also don't see a problem with being a snob. It's a group of like minded folks that have shared standards. It's amazing. It could be exclusionary, but it sounds like you're inviting and helpful.

**Thunderfrog**

Geordie wrote:

Post 2016/05/10 14:58:59 Subject: Am I really a painting snob?

To offer the other perspective.

Playing table-top miniature games is an experience wholly unlike anything in an RTS or other video game, and some people really enjoy the gaming aspect.

It's easy to spend 30 minutes clipping and assembling a squad with no paint, primer, or sanding/line removal.

It's not easy to find a way to paint that army if you are a terrible painter, don't want to pay someone else to do it, or don't know what you want your final army list to look like.

For those folks, (I was one), it can be hard to fathom why some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?

I've never been denied a game based on paint, but I've seen someone do it, and the rest of the stores response was like.. "Oh. Look at Mr. Fancy pants. Fine, he can not play a game."

We are a close-knit group, and took it as insult he told a really nice guy to bugger off because his plastic wasn't pretty.

Overall, I'm tolerant of any gaming preferences. Just thought I'd offer perspective.

Are you a snob? Probably not.
Are you elitist? Maybe. Not associating with others who don't meet your standards is kinda the definition of the word.
Are you doing something wrong? Nope!

Firstly thanks for putting your perspective over in a friendly way!

Your post kinda highlights why the two different perspectives clash sometimes. "some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?" for some of us that's only 50% (or less) of the reason, it might be 100% of the reason for you but not for everyone.

Now i don't know how the guy you mentioned approached the situation but if he was disrespectful and belittling to the player with the unpainted army then F**k that guy. I'd kick him out of our group painted or not. But if he explained politely his preference for painted games then for the most part i'm with the painted guy, having to sit through hours of game your not going to enjoy because the consequence of politely declining is to be ostracized doesn't sound like a good time to me. Having said that if your store is a predominantly unpainted, then by going there only looking for painted games he is putting himself in a position where is preference may cause offence to be taken and he should really be looking for a like minded group - or start his own!!

Absolutely.

I'm in it for both sides, personally, and I wish I could put half my ideas to decent paint and scheme.

**chromedog**

I will only play with painted models.

Not undercoated, not just basecoated.

I don't play tournaments (just don't enjoy the environment).

I don't care if people call me a painting snob. I also don't particularly care if I get games in. I collect and paint little mandollies as a hobby - the games are a bonus, not a raison d'etre.