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I think ashes to ashes is 1d3 too, I lost so many support models to that spell it is rediculous.

The arcing spells really got me too. Having my caster nice and hidden with a bodyguard Helljack near by and watchingthe spell arc into my caster - that hurt.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I think ashes to ashes is 1d3 too, I lost so many support models to that spell it is rediculous.

It is one cheaper however, which helps take the sting out, but it's still been taken down a notch. That said, eSevvy gets a free cast now, so he can cast it 4 times in a round with a wrack to help. More likely 3 times with a few boosts.

Anyone else super psyched for the new starters? As someone who's JUST getting back into Warmachine (with Cygnar and Retribution) the new starters made me drool a little. It was nice knowing you wallet....

New boxes are really cool. I got the Cryx and Cygnar ones at L&L and am very happy with them so far.

Lightning Immunity now includes 'Bounces will not go to you'.
That's an incredible fix for one of the most buggy parts of Mk2 Cygnar.

Stormguard are BACK, people!

 Killionaire wrote:
Lightning Immunity now includes 'Bounces will not go to you'.
That's an incredible fix for one of the most buggy parts of Mk2 Cygnar.

Stormguard are BACK, people!

I just might have to pick up some Stormguard then

Stormnouns look really strong in general. Lots of synergy.

It's because the had no choice but to buff Cygnars infantry so that people would actually use it instead of Mercing out.

 War Kitten wrote:
Anyone else super psyched for the new starters? As someone who's JUST getting back into Warmachine (with Cygnar and Retribution) the new starters made me drool a little. It was nice knowing you wallet....

Hehe. ..yeah. I am splitting the new Warmachine one with a friend for the Cryx and getting the Hordes one to add to my existing Skorne and Trollbloods.

Very good deal and great for new players, IMO.

Funny thing is I just finished building the old Retribution starter (Kaelyssa, Manticore, Chimera, Griffon) when news of the new starters came out.

Wow, just seen the new Deathjack card.

He's so nurfed! Maximum of 5 focus now. Lost the ability to repair with souls, gained snacking. Necromancy doesn't allow upkeep spells to be cast, but can cast more than focus 3 spells now.

Also his claws are now magical weapons. He's effectively half a point cheaper at 23 points.

I'm not saying he didn't need it, but wow!

 obsidianaura wrote:
Wow, just seen the new Deathjack card.

He's so nurfed! Maximum of 5 focus now. Lost the ability to repair with souls, gained snacking. Necromancy doesn't allow upkeep spells to be cast, but can cast more than focus 3 spells now.

Also his claws are now magical weapons. He's effectively half a point cheaper at 23 points.

I'm not saying he didn't need it, but wow!

WHAAAAAAAAATT? But the repair thing was a big part of what Deathjack was about, it was the first Helljack and was capable of being fully autonomous and powered by the souls of those he killed. He was capable of repairing himself and this ability is what allowed him to ravage the coasts of Immoren for several centuries before the Cryx captured him.
Removing his abilities is very harsh.

Also just seen that Goreshade has lost Mage Blight but gained lamentation.

I get that they want to streamline things but it does seem to take away a little flavour.

Finally got to play some games with my cryx.....i hate to be a doomsayer but jesus. I feel like the whole faction is lackluster now. Its pretty rediculous. Even the points dont line up well with other faction equivilants. Nothing in our army does anything well now. Heres what i mean.

Pretty much all heavies.....while sporting great def for a heavy chassis they get shot off the board. Or at least heavily damaged on the way in. Even gunline jacks cant stand toe to toe to other faction gunjacks.

Deathchickens. Yes they are super cheap but with the loss in def you are pretty much trading a spell for a jack. I have yet to have a chicken survive the following turn after arc noding.

Units

Bane Warriors...yes they needed changed. Bane warriors are designed to go after heavies. They need a delivery option. With the loss in threat range from tartersauce nerf they are substantially slower and prone to getting alphaed or shot. The UA is overcosted with no more tough and dead rise no longer shakes stationary. UA should be 4-5 points.

Bane knights....i agree with this nerf. The problem is coupled with tartersauce nerf. Delivery options suck. But have always sucked. But with the loss of movement curse bonus they may be exposed for another turn.

Raiders...also agree these ladies were rediculpus in mk2. But now they dont do anything well. Having to choose what ability the witch gives is nonsense when coupled with loss if AD, powerswell and captain movement buff. Why bother having feedback on a unit that cant crack armor? Why would i ever take the captain now? knockdown immunity is pretty worthless imho. Especially on models who dont have tough.

Witches....the changes here are interesting. I actually think they are good. well done PP.

Bile thralls....we all know biles were OP as crap. almost had a friend of mi e quit the game when i bile bombed him. My only issue is why 15 points for a full squad? 13 at best.

Bloodgorgers/slaughterborn....i like the changes. makes the gorgers and interesting infantry clearer and slaughterborn should never have been able to wipe whole squads. Gorgers suffer though from movement abilities and protection from shooting. tough helps.

Mechthralls....they definately hit too hard and should have terrible def stats. no issues with stat kine adjustment. but that recursion mechanic is garbage now. example....Pirates are 17pts for respectable def, 2 attacks, range option and d3 models returning every turn and can activate when they do. A single mechthrall brick with 1 surgeon is 14 points total with the statline i dont see why they have to sacrifice combat action. especially with the recursion mechanic being dependent on another unit. Our tarpit got watered down.

Pirates....overcosted at 17pts. especially if you max WA. sitting at 23point. Heres a question to pronder about point equivilencies. If you had to choose would you rather have a full boat pirate squad at 23 points or a mhsf with commander at 20points? which unit do you think would win head to head?

Bloat thralls....got a buff with mobious for sure but with the new terrain rules not nearly as survivable. evened back out to just as useless in mk2.

Raider captain.....see above.

Warwitch siren....the new focus mech as made their niche not as special. also the hit to magic abilty puts them at overcosted. should be 3 points.

tartersauce...he needed the nerf to rapid strike but the recursion is terrible now. The curse hit would be managable now but loss of stealth makes it a terrible combo nerf.

Skarlock thrall...needs to be cheaper. the wsc at 9 points is a steal.

Wraithengine....at 18points? a solid no. Maybe if it had soul taker.


The problem with the Gaspy2 nerf....yes we all know we need it to happen but they totally crushed him. At face value he lost his cloud wall, his anti-charging tech as an upkeep (in a meta that is supposed to use more jacks now he has to commit more focus to defending himself instead of fueling jacks) the recursion on excarnate is garbage now. feat needed further toning. when you count those and then count interactions the implications become.much more severe. Spell slaves can no longer cast upkeep spells, bile bomb was non existant once the blast got changed to a spray anyway, arc nodes became more fragile and infantry became fodder even more so than before. Every warcaster should do something well. in any faction. gaspy2 is now completely unplayable.

Overall game changes that are nerfs to cryx.....incorporeal nerf, the def stat lowering across the board across all factions, RoF buff, artillery buffs.
The new point scale.

All of these are pushing the game into a shooting meta imho. And we lost alot of survivability/recursion and def tech.
With the point cost scale adjustment i feel like we field fewer models than we did in mk2 and further reduces our ability to get into the fight.

A thought on premeasuring....its a nerf to melee armies and a boon for ranged. Now ranged units/models can maximize shots and frequency. Can toe just inside stealth range instead of commiting and either going too deep or being too far back and missing. A huge skill set has been shed from the game and a major piece of excitement.

I feel like cryx is the bastard child with no direction now. We dont have a theme anymore.

Having not had the pleasure of fighting Cryx in their MK2 incarceration, but taking a look at their rules then and now I can agree with the Thunder Child's statement. I'm not going to comment on whether or not Cryx were OP in MK2, but they seem to have taken the nerf bat squarely to the groin in MK3.

I love what they did to my Cygnar though.

Madrak2 is looking bonkers.

I expect grim salvation to get an errata before too long.

I'm on my phone, so I can't really type up a longer review/rebuttal, but the changes aren't THAT bad to Cryx.

Raiders are a solid anti-infantry/jamming unit (even still), and feedback still makes sense with them, you only want to ping a jack to damage the caster, not wreck it in 3/4 hits.

The raider capt no sleeping is solid on either Skarre, and def 14/16 raiders who can't be KD are irritating to remove. Plus both her weapons are KD on hit, which is pretty amazing.

WWS are still costed right, power booster means you only need 1 focus to fully fuel a jack, plus she got slightly better mat.

Mcthralls/recursion change is now in line with everyother recursion unit (alexia1, gatorman and shamblers), they're a second line to absorb bodies and swell, then hit after the enemy is depleated.

Wrath engine is solid, no fighting for souls, always on incorp, and poops out machine wraiths (which are great now).

Banes are still good, but at least don't need saxon to babysit. Plus since all versions have ghostly, they can pretty much always get backstrikes to help fix mat (which has always been an issue with them).

I quite like the Seether's update.

It's lost soul engine but now only costs 13 points.

For that you get 2 pow 17 attacks and 1 pow 12 at MAT 8

It's now got beserk, countercharge and hard head.

It has to run or charge when it activates but that's all you'd do with a Seether anyway (and it doesn't cost focus).

Same goes for the Slayer. It's MAT is now 7 and only costs 10 points.

Infantry has taken a hit but some heavies jacks are better now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With Sturgis's 31 warjack points you can fit 8 Slayers in a game. What would that look like?

 Rygnan wrote:
Personally, I'll still have my Banes with Stealth, because I main Goreshade1. I think the nerfs are fair (although some of my favourite models were hit HARD, Bane Warriors and Deathjack) and everything we had before is still solid. My real problem with the changes is how little they buffed our worse units. I mean, look at Cygnar for an example, they got nerfs to what was necessary, but all their 'mediocre' choices got buffed massively. Cryx stuff? Stayed mostly the same

The "mediocre" stuff that was in MK2 Cryx... most other factions would be happy to take them as they'd be an improvement on what is available in-faction. They only seem lacklustre in Cryx because the good stuff is too good.

Take a look at stuff like the respawning pirate raiders. They weren't taken because Mechanithralls did their job better. The Iron Lich overseer is pretty much the best jack marshal in the game in MK2... in a faction that didn't really need it. Cephalyx raiders too weak? They seem to do OK when taken in a Cephalyx army. etc. etc. etc.

 novaspike wrote:
I'm on my phone, so I can't really type up a longer review/rebuttal, but the changes aren't THAT bad to Cryx.

Raiders are a solid anti-infantry/jamming unit (even still), and feedback still makes sense with them, you only want to ping a jack to damage the caster, not wreck it in 3/4 hits.

The raider capt no sleeping is solid on either Skarre, and def 14/16 raiders who can't be KD are irritating to remove. Plus both her weapons are KD on hit, which is pretty amazing.

WWS are still costed right, power booster means you only need 1 focus to fully fuel a jack, plus she got slightly better mat.

Mcthralls/recursion change is now in line with everyother recursion unit (alexia1, gatorman and shamblers), they're a second line to absorb bodies and swell, then hit after the enemy is depleated.

Wrath engine is solid, no fighting for souls, always on incorp, and poops out machine wraiths (which are great now).

Banes are still good, but at least don't need saxon to babysit. Plus since all versions have ghostly, they can pretty much always get backstrikes to help fix mat (which has always been an issue with them).

On phone too. I feel your pain. lol.Anyway...to the rebuttal.

Im not saying Raiders dont have a job. Im saying they are no longer effective at it. Sure with skarre they get a bump bump talking in a bubble. Or else all argumebts would devolve into "just take pdenny" the ultimate turd polisher. The problem with the raiders is once they are delivered (which as you said with either take additional models for pathfinder, or other resources for ghostwalk) they lack the hitting power required to deal damage. Thats not counting the inability to damage a jack for feedback. Lets say they get to the lines and charge in with overtake amd get a good solid alpha strike on someones squad. Well now you have no more egaged models and no force barrier. say goodbye to your unit that is supposed to be jamming the enemy but is just dying instead. lastly their KD is only on crit. substantially less awesome.outside of skarre1. If i was the one swinging the nerfbat i would have taken AD. And left it. Then the captain would have lost desperate pace for veteran leader satyxis. making her a toolbox for witches and the new gunslingers.

WWS i would definately agree they are better than say arcanists. so im definately.not saying they should be pc2. i think at 3 points they would fit. The main reason anyone is taking her in the first place is the empower. Which means that anyturn you are doing anything other than dishing focus is using the model for what shes nkt intended. i can count on one hand how many times putting shadow bind or seducing a single model was worth more than the focus. While the increase in MAT is welcome it was used much less than the decreased highly used magic ability.

I also agree the recursion has been brought to other faction recursion abilitues but to me that just means cxryx has lost an piece of what made it unique. We are supposed to be the master of souls and necromancy. Insee this as our identity bei g stripped away from us.

Wraith engine does gain full time incorporeal but with the new nerf to incorporeal is will jack with your army. Now when an attack is made the model loses incorporeal until its next activation. it used to be for a round. Now you are forced to activate him early in turn or work around a gaint ass LoS blocking base. Unless he just dies. which with the new jack heavy meta is entirely plausible which is a deceease in his survivabilty.

Ghostly will help with backstrikes. Totally agree. My beef is getting them there. Knights have help with vengence and i think are balanced. its the warriors who took a the big hit. With no way to defend themselves on the way in its gonna be brutal. food for thought......if ghostly and backstrike is a thing does that take away part of the need to bring tarterous for his curse ability?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:

 Rygnan wrote:
Personally, I'll still have my Banes with Stealth, because I main Goreshade1. I think the nerfs are fair (although some of my favourite models were hit HARD, Bane Warriors and Deathjack) and everything we had before is still solid. My real problem with the changes is how little they buffed our worse units. I mean, look at Cygnar for an example, they got nerfs to what was necessary, but all their 'mediocre' choices got buffed massively. Cryx stuff? Stayed mostly the same

The "mediocre" stuff that was in MK2 Cryx... most other factions would be happy to take them as they'd be an improvement on what is available in-faction. They only seem lacklustre in Cryx because the good stuff is too good.

Take a look at stuff like the respawning pirate raiders. They weren't taken because Mechanithralls did their job better. The Iron Lich overseer is pretty much the best jack marshal in the game in MK2... in a faction that didn't really need it. Cephalyx raiders too weak? They seem to do OK when taken in a Cephalyx army. etc. etc. etc.

Totally agree. Im not saying other factions who got buffed were undeserving or unwarrented. And im not disputing our power in mk2. my argument is how after nerfs cryx has landed in mk3. The nerfs to me seem especially hamfisted and almost vindictive or on a punishment level for playing cryz in mk2.

The problem with the Gaspy2 nerf....yes we all know we need it to happen but they totally crushed him. At face value he lost his cloud wall, his anti-charging tech as an upkeep (in a meta that is supposed to use more jacks now he has to commit more focus to defending himself instead of fueling jacks) the recursion on excarnate is garbage now. feat needed further toning. when you count those and then count interactions the implications become.much more severe. Spell slaves can no longer cast upkeep spells, bile bomb was non existant once the blast got changed to a spray anyway, arc nodes became more fragile and infantry became fodder even more so than before. Every warcaster should do something well. in any faction. gaspy2 is now completely unplayable.

This is a pity.
Caustic mists are now upkeeps. He can spell more than one poisoned clouds but not on the same unit since each mist is an upkeep. Other than that I see him playable.

Except that caustic mists only damage enemy models if the models start or end their movement inside the cloud. So why upkeep and empty cloud unless its still blocking LoS. Also if you cast another cloud the first one goes away.

I agree with most of your points, I think most everything's role has shifted, or at the very least, become less generalist.

Having played a couple of games with raiders, I've actually found praying overtake to be a bit of a trap to eat a unit. You're better off with force barrier (or relentless charge) unless you want to get at part of a unit and swing into the rest, or you can kill/finish a unit and overtake into melee with a second unit. Otherwise, yeah, you end up exposed with no defensive tech.

For banes, delivery is definitely an issue. It's weird because I see warriors and riders as second wave units, with knights playing first or second. I guess the biggest issue is figuring out what the best first wave unit would be. Outside of "delivery" casters (coven, occultation casters), you either have to be content to lose something (not ideal) or try to hug terrain (so far people have been pretty good about adding more stuff).

One of the biggest issues I think is that most of the 'elite' infantry is pretty expensive; so far I've had problems fitting 2-ish units with support into a 75 point list. This is kinda compounded by the mk2 mentality of WJ points then all infantry and support.

I think one of the biggest changes for Cryx is looking at our non-character jacks and formally second string units (like black ogrun and revenant crew), because they ARE cheaper and easier to slot in then the old standards.

I kinda disagree about the WE though, always on incorp is much stronger, since it can sit there and debuff things with dark shroud, then pop out a machine wraith when something else kills an enemy near it. After stuff has engaged and it's safer it can start hitting things and not get punked immediatly.

And while the no freestrikes is a incorp nerf, the no pushes is a subtle buff. Makes all our always on incorp models a little better at contesting, and makes denny2 just a tiny bit more survivable (I've gotten her killed by Ret battle mages due to a horrible series of pulls).

I know what you mean with how expensive our "elite" infantry options are. I dont feel they are very "elitle." PP can nerf them into the ground if they want but price them accordingly. I hope our themes even things out.

I feel like the themes will mostly give us back some of the rules we had before.

 The Thunder Child wrote:
Except that caustic mists only damage enemy models if the models start or end their movement inside the cloud. So why upkeep and empty cloud unless its still blocking LoS. Also if you cast another cloud the first one goes away.

Is this really true that the cloud goes away if another one is cast?

It's because it's an upkeep.


When you cast a new upkeep spell. The previous one disappears.

They certainly aren't the plug and play they used to be. I guess I can't just take raiders and banes and just push them forward.

As for range, pretty much every model in every faction got hit with the range nerf. You look across each faction and anything that added threat range got nerfed hard. So Raiders are still one of the fastest units out there. They were one of my favorite units because they literally did everything. Now they are a fast skirmishing unit that can threaten some feedback damage on the charge. But their main use, tying up the enemy's front line troops, is still there. They just aren't tying them up turn 1 and they aren't threatening jacks along with infantry.

That said, I still miss my old raiders. The new ones are certainly not an auto-include which is a good thing for balance. And I'm still trying to figure out how I want to build a list. But in the end I think balance-wise everything will work out fine.

Did Cryx get more balanced than Cygnar did?