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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Make reanimation for their last wound .

I've often thought this would make a lot of sense. It honestly wouldn't be that much of a nerf, as it would only really affect over/lords and occasionally wraiths. But it should be a chance to reassemble after death, not straight FNP.

Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

Bharring wrote:
Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

No. Again, statistically speaking, what's going to happen is that both squads are just going to negate each other the whole game. Nothing will happen. Except I'll have spent 10 more points than you for nothing to happen.

Bharring wrote:
Being great at CC doesn't mean being better than TWO. It just means being better than the poor sod in charge range.

Would you really not charge equal numbers of Tacs into equal numbers of Necron Warriors?

I don't know what I'd do. It depends on what else is around, really.

Fact is, necron warriors outshoot naked tacticals, they are as durable as, if not more durable than, naked tacticals and they match them in close combat.

But pay 1 ppm less.

Not fair. Not in the least.

 Traditio wrote:
Fact is, necron warriors outshoot naked tacticals, they out-endure naked tacticals and they match them in close combat.

But pay 1 ppm less.

Not fair. Not in the least.

And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

Just take a power axe on your sergeant? Either way it means that if they're in CC they can't threaten any vehicle in the game...

A Marine on the charge kills:
2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(2/3) Warriors. That's 1/6.

With 3 Marines in CC, your EV is half a Necron. Their EV is a quarter a Marine (less after losing half a guy).

If you didn't have ATSKNF, that still gives you a chance at combat res win. With ATSKNF, you don't care if you lose CC. Eventually they will, and breaking means probably wiped unit. Can't happen to you.

As for differential, there are 14 Warriors for every 13 Marines. But over 2 Warriors die before striking back. So they more than make up their point differential by striking first.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Just take a power axe on your sergeant?

That violates my fodder maximization policies. When 75% of your list dies before assault, you can't afford such luxuries.

If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

Martel732 wrote:And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

I know, right? Good thing I get those free rhinos that necron warriors can glance to death even though they're shooting at front AV.

Bharring wrote:
If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

They are a big deal because AP 4 sucks against the field. Plus, even with AP 4, they are still getting cover AND FNP+. AP 4 knocks 4+ armor down to 5+ cover. That's never worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:And they threaten every vehicle in the game. Even super heavies. They are the corollary to Eldar infantry threatening every MC in the game. Because GMCs are immune to poison, but not rending.

I know, right? Good thing I get those free rhinos that necron warriors can glance to death even though they're shooting at front AV.

BA bend over and take the gauss up the ass.

Bharring wrote:
If Necron Warriors were such a big deal, we'd see a lot more attention payed to AP4.

Why in the bloody feth would Eldar and Tau, e.g., need AP 4? AP doesn't matter when you are rolling an entire bucket of dice.

I can't game against Necron warriors because I have to game against scatterbikes, which are 3+ for some ungodly reason. Scatterbikes kill me NOW. Warriors are a bit slower and kill me turn 4-5 ish. Either way, it's more humiliation for the boys in red.

Maybe my Marines just need to face more non-Decurion Necrons, then. I haven't seen this problem.

If I pay for a dread or any tank, those are points I just threw away. And remember, I don't know I'm facing Necrons. That's why I can't use Furioso spam even if I wanted to.

At least Orks can drown them in bodies.
At least CSM have units that are EVEN tougher and a really good anti-Necron flyer.

Necrons are bad news for BA tac lists.

Remove Gladius free transports and Imperial Knights as allies. Gladius is just completely unfair and OP and I get sick of everyone bringing in a Knight for easy wins whenever I see them. Even worse killing them hurts me as much as it hurts them if not more.

Most Marine tactics involve something that the Necrons hold a natural check for and in the case of a tournament are going to take because they'd be fools not to.

Deep Strike assaults to get in the opponent's face early - The Drop Pod(s) arrive first turn, land, open doors and usually whatever comes out fires then hunkers down to weather the return fire. Except if you're facing Necrons those Deathmarks are going to arrive as soon as the Drop Pod touches down and shoot before whatever came out of the pod. That Dreadnought? Gone. Your Tactical Squad? Gone. Heavy Weapons with a Terminator and Storm Shield babysitter? Might as well have not bothered with the babysitter because they're gone. Wolves running Void Claws can be assured that at least three of those Termies will die before they get to shoot, what's that? They all have to be equipped with Wolf Claws and the only shooting they can get is one in five packing a Cyclone Missile Launcher? Guarantee he'll be one of the three gone.
Vehicles to move your marines up faster - A good number will be gunned down on the Necron's first turn by troops. More if your turn was first. On top of that they don't have to worry about keeping something alive to pop that big tank, just about anything in the Necron army can deal with AV14.
There just aren't many ways for Marine armies to stay balanced and tackle Necrons.

Personally I wouldn't have any complaints if Necrons actually died before their RPs kicked in. They can roll for all their wounds too, as long as they DIE FIRST!

OP:

While we're on the subject of unfun armies...

Ravenwing. They need to get rid of the rerollable jinks and the turn 1 "free" jink.

Tau's weaker units need buffs to make them more viable. So Kroot, Vespid, fliters, and HRR Broadsides. Maybe sniper drones.

Martel732 wrote:
AP 4 knocks 4+ armor down to 5+ cover. That's never worth it.

Can't you reduce that to 6+ wth an Auspex, or apply Ignores Cover through another method?

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

While we're on the subject of unfun armies...

Ravenwing. They need to get rid of the rerollable jinks and the turn 1 "free" jink.

Losing a turn of shooting is not free. What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

They don't have to fire snapshots on the following turn. That's what I meant by free.

What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

The base Necron stats are fine for the most part, its that with Decurion slapped on top of it giving insane bonuses which causes issues. A detachment that gives the benefit of a cryptek to every unit in the army plus relentless and MTC for basically zero tax is insane. Free transports for space marines is nothing compared to having what is easily 50+ points of value for free and impossible to remove in every unit (a cryptek can be challenged out or sniped, can't snipe out the Decurion bonus). I have no idea what the point value for army wide MTC and Relentless is but in the realm of freebee stats that's really bonkers.

 Traditio wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions.

The Battle Sisters never got that memo.

Ditto for Imperial Guard.

Niether are a great example of an up-to-date functional and fun army, are they?

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Losing a turn of shooting is not free.

They don't have to fire snapshots on the following turn. That's what I meant by free.

What's wrong with rerollable jinks? There's nothing wrong with them or is your issue the Darkshroud.

What's wrong with a 3+ rerollable cover save (2+ rerollable with any modifers)? On a T5 model?

Is that what you're asking?

We're talking Necron levels of stupidity. On bikes. Probably with grav guns.

And it isn't free at all.

No I'm asking whats wrong with a 4+ rerollable that removes almost all shooting power. That's the standard biker.

You're cherry picking Black Knights who cost more than a Terminator so yes I'd say a very good cover save is fair. Besides the whole cherry picking thing makes the conversation pointless it's like me saying all space marines should be nerfed because their basic gun is ap2.

Nerf the entire Eldar book... really? You may see the bias on the profile pic but that has to be most lazy Eldar 'fix' that's going.

Can't stop the 1/3 heavy weapons on bikes due to the kits now but removing relentless from bikes/ jetbikes, moving them to FA or even just a hefty points increase to the upgrades works

D weapons on Wraithguard are fine as is with the F&Q changes on GW's facebook (cannot deploy the D flamers in allied transports and if you jink, passengers are snap shooting for very short ranged and expensive units...)
D - Cannons are 24" range but could use the -1 on D table results

I'd say 350 points for a Suncannon armed Wraithknight is fine but the other knight variants really need to be 400+ points

Warp Spiders are more difficult, removing flickerjump outright might be a plan (would need to test this out, if they are still broken make them take dangerous terrain tests for every 6 inches moved using the Warp generator)

Remove the buffs from the aspect host and instead for every different squad add a unique special rule that applies to all models in the formation to discourage spam - for balance, if all units in the formation are destroyed you give your opponent a VP.

Buff Banshees (furious charge ffs!?)/ Wraithblades (2 wounds or more than 1 attack on a CC unit!?)/ Shining Spears (more than one attack maybe or giving them back hit and run?!) and Wraithlords (FNP or some method of actually deploying close the the enemy?) damn it.

Moving scatbikes to fa does nothing. Make SL 20 pt upgrade like an assault cannon. Maybe 25. It's a better weapon.