Asmodee consolidates more of the US (board)game industry

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**Vulcan**

Ah... your analogy falls a wee bit short.

If you don't like sardines and aren't going to buy them, then you're not the sardine salesman's customer and he could care less what you think of his business model.

Likewise, if you don't like the price for a game, you have the ultimate power over the business to NOT BUY IT.

**Mr.Church13**

It's ok sardines aren't doing anything for him personally so he's not concerned with their well being.

But once all the sardine places go out of business you can rest assured he'll be at the closing sale.

Six months later though I'm sure he'll wonder why there's no more Sardine shops.

**Vulcan**

Mr.Church13 wrote:
It's ok sardines aren't doing anything for him personally so he's not concerned with their well being.

But once all the sardine places go out of business you can rest assured he'll be at the closing sale.

Six months later though I'm sure he'll wonder why there's no more Sardine shops.

Why would someone who doesn't like sardines attend a sale at a sardine shop, closing or otherwise? I certainly wouldn't. I don't care if they're selling $1,000,000 worth of sardines for a penny, I don't like sardines so that penny would be wasted. Not to mention the trouble of storing the sardines I won't be eating...

And it's unlikely I'd even notice there weren't any sardine shops anymore.

Now if you make the argument if sardine sales collapse then all FISH shops go out of business, that might be closer to what he's thinking.

**Mr.Church13**

Yeah, I kinda butchered my own analogy to be fair.

**Davor**

Vulcan wrote:
Ah... your analogy falls a wee bit short.

If you don't like sardines and aren't going to buy them, then you're not the sardine salesman's customer and he could care less what you think of his business model.

Likewise, if you don't like the price for a game, you have the ultimate power over the business to NOT BUY IT.

Why does it fail? He is saying it's us customers who are evil and we shouldn't expect businesses to make a profit. If the answer is if I don't like sardines and then like Mr Church said why the shop is not around 6 months later, maybe that store should have offered other things then instead of just sardines. I shouldn't be obligated to buy sardines just because he opened up a sardine shop, put money, blood sweat and tears into it.

My point is, if a business wants to make profit thy should be giving the customer what they want.

Look I am all for businesses making a profit. I support my FLGS and pay full price. Thing is, he is offering me other perks for buying full price. That is what I mean by giving the customer what they want.

Why should I drive 1 hours drive (half hour each way) pay full price, but I can't game in that store and they don't offer nothing else? If I am going to travel 1 hours drive or more, I can go to other places to get a discount. So why am I obligated to shop at that store that only offers full price, no gaming space and nothing else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree, we shouldn't expect businesses give their products for free and a shop needs to make a profit. What I am saying is, we are not obligated to do so and we also have a right to get what we feel what we should pay for.

If we need to shop else where we have that right and that is what competition is. Otherwise we wouldn't have McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, or Coke or Pepsi etc.

Where I live we use to have 3 or more gaming stores. They all closed down. Who is obligated to shop at what store? Are we not allowed to choose where to shop and buy? So it's up to the stores to entice us to shop at their place instead of the competition.

**Vulcan**

Okay, now your point is more clear.

OF COURSE you shouldn't pay full price at the FLGS if all it offers you is the opportunity to buy. The reason we pay full price at FLGS is to support the public gaming area. The internet has made it the sheerest folly to try and run an FLGS that only sells stuff.

Now pre-internet sales venues I would have thought differently. But things change over time; in business more than most.

**MRex21**

redcapscorner wrote:
I'm also a board game retailer, and I have to disagree with the sentiment that Asmodee is anti-FLGS. I don't know which retailer is quoted above, so I can't pretend to know anything about their operation, but it sounds like they're exclusively ordering direct from Asmodee, and seem to be under the impression that's their only option. It isn't. I have my concerns with any company acquiring such a huge percentage of the quality offerings from any one industry, but Asmodee is a publishing company that has long been releasing some of the best games around, and most of their purchases seem to have been made with an eye toward "fixing" the publishers of other great games. Here are my rebuttals of the complaints brought forward by the other retailer:

1) Quick shipping: Asmodee games are carried by every major game distributor in the US, each of which has multiple warehouses nationwide, meaning there should be few stores in the country that aren't a one-day ship from at least one distributor warehouse. I can get Asmodee games the day after I order them now, the same as I could before they owned all these other companies.

2) Good margins: Their wholesale price is now consistent across the board. Depending on which distributors a store uses and how much volume they do, that may mean that this rate is a little higher for some games now, but it isn't drastic and I absolutely understand them wanting to be consistent. Interestingly, I took the biggest hit on actual Asmodee-branded stuff because they adopted Fantasy Flight's slightly worse standard prices. So, FFG wholesale rates are unchanged, and Asmodee, Days of Wonder, Z-Man, etc. got a little worse, but it's still a very good discount for the industry, just not the best discount. It's still a whole lot better than Pokemon or Hasbro.

3) Regular stock notifications: They still do these by email. I'm not sure how else to address this.

4) Promotions: I'm not actually sure what the complaint is here. They don't allow significant discounting, which is pretty transparently pro-retailer. One of the biggest obstacles for any local store is competing with online local discounters. When a company like Asmodee or Mayfair implements a sales agreement that prohibits discounting, it makes stores much more competitive because their prices are comparable to the internet's which helps emphasize their benefits (instant gratification, knowledgable staff, space to play, etc.). If you're talking about wholesale promotions, those don't seem any more or less common to me now than before.

5) Multi-channel availability: This is actually one of the biggest areas of improvement since Asmodee started making purchases, and as far as I can tell this is the reason Asmodee chose to buy many of the companies they did. A few years before all this, a distributor called Alliance (the sister company of the comic industry's Diamond), started making exclusive distribution deals with a number of major publishers. Mayfair, Days of Wonder, Z-Man, Wizkids, and others were suddenly all available only from one distributor, and to top it all off, it was the most soulless, uncaring, and unresponsive of the American distributors. At the time these agreements were made, I was barely ordering from Alliance, but suddenly I had no choice but to order from them all the time. As Admodee has acquired these companies, they've systematically dismantled those exclusivity agreements and brought distributor choices back to retailers. The quoted retailer may not realize that distributors are an option, but stores need only provide their Asmodee account number to their distributors and they can order anything they want.

6) Online sales: I do think this is bad policy, and it's the same mistake GW made. Online sales aren't the issue for brick and mortar stores, online discounters are. They already limit discounts, so there's no reason to also limit online vending. GW, for the record, only limits online vending, not discounts, which is the absolute most backward way of addressing the problem.

7) Reprints: And this is the other reason Asmodee seems to be buying companies. Stock availability was always an issue for FFG and has been for Z-Man since they were last acquired. Has Asmodee completely fixed those problems? Not yet, but they've made headway. No availability has gotten worse for retailers since Asmodee got involved, and it seems to be getting better little-by-little. I can't imagine there's an overnight fix for this, since it's likely a matter of cashflow and personpower when it comes to reprinting the hundreds of offerings some of these companies have.

If anything, Asmodee's crusade seems to be about saving local stores from online discounting, exclusive distribution, and supply chain issues. All of their purchases are of companies that had issues in one or more of these areas. I'm not sure where perceptions to the contrary are coming from, at least among retailers.

Absolutely correct...

It's all 'milk and honey'...as long as you are one of their "approved" Specialty Retailers and they accept your store front as valid. If they decide it is not, you're cut off from the source completely and lose access to a significant board game market share and some of the biggest and best selling titles in the industry....which is what I'm going through now with my store.

Even though I sell other titles from other companies, the steadiest and best selling titles are now all entangled in the Asmodee tentacles. The difference being, these titles had been available for years and sold quite well in my store...before Asmodee went full 'Borg Collective' on the industry. Now, with all of the acquisitions, buy-outs, and price fixing...not to mention being cut off from them...the situation has impacted my business such that I am now forced to actually consider going out of business.

**morgoth**

Vhalan wrote:
For us American's, it will mean reduced places to buy discounted games. Several of my preferred online vendors have basically purged out Asmodee products.

A position on which they will do a full 180 very quickly if this happens, otherwise they would have nothing to sell. basically.

**warboss**

MRex21 wrote:
[Absolutely correct...

It's all 'milk and honey'...as long as you are one of their "approved" Specialty Retailers and they accept your store front as valid. If they decide it is not, you're cut off from the source completely and lose access to a significant board game market share and some of the biggest and best selling titles in the industry....which is what I'm going through now with my store.

Even though I sell other titles from other companies, the steadiest and best selling titles are now all entangled in the Asmodee tentacles. The difference being, these titles had been available for years and sold quite well in my store...before Asmodee went full 'Borg Collective' on the industry. Now, with all of the acquisitions, buy-outs, and price fixing...not to mention being cut off from them...the situation has impacted my business such that I am now forced to actually consider going out of business.

I'm sorry to hear that. Have they said why they specifically didn't approve your store? Obviously you're free to not answer that if you're still in negotiations/appealing their decision so as not to risk anything further.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I know nothing about the boardgame market, but I'm always concerned when a given company starts chucking the cash around in order to buy up competitors.

One thing I don't get though - how is the discount limit harming Bricks and Mortar stores? I understand the intent is to ensure Websites can't unfairly undercut Bricks and Mortar stores?

I mean, I get that if your physical store needs it's website version to help make ends meet it's disastrous to not be allowed to stock their games - but if you're cleared to sell them, does the Discount Limit not help you out?

**ProtoClone**

So confusing, shouldn't be trying to fathom all of this so early.

This all just strikes me as a giant, board game, Thunderdome.

Asmodee comes in, buys you, and then throws you into the thunderdome to compete with other bought companies while Asmodee reaps the rewards. Retailers are left on the outside hoping they can get in to also benefit from the fights.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

One also wonders just how Asmodee are financing these takeovers.

If it's all from cash holdings - hurrah, all is likely well and good.

If it's highly geared (so lots of borrowing) - much more room for worry, as if things go belly up, there'll be chaos in the retail market.

**Smellingsalts**

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't care. FLGS are the people who support and create the industry. Yeah, I've heard all the guys who claim you don't need FLGS and they are just plain wrong. The Industry has figured that out and that is why they are limiting online discounters. The heyday of going online and getting your games at ridiculous discounts is over, just like the Golden Age of Piracy ended, so too has the day of online discounting. When I was a kid, I saw these guys playing Napoleonic miniatures games, and when I looked into how much that was, I found out it would cost me hundreds of dollars. As a kid I couldn't afford that! But As I grew up, I acquired skills, got a job, and was able to get into any hobby I wanted to..Anti-monopoly laws don't apply because games are not a commodity that people have to have. They are a want, not a need. And so for those of you who constantly get on here and bemoan the industry shutting down the online discounters, for those who think FLGS don't deserve the right to exist, I say, maybe the gaming hobby is not for you!

**streamdragon**

Smellingsalts wrote:
I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't care. FLGS are the people who support and create the industry. Yeah, I've heard all the guys who claim you don't need FLGS and they are just plain wrong.

Except not. I don't have an FLGS for at least an hour, and even if I did I would neither pay more for games there nor play them there with rando strangers. Like probably the lion's share of board gamers, I play almost the entirety of my games with friends at one of our houses. I have no need nor want for an FLGS. The idea that I should want to pay more to support some store I will never see nor patronize is not only ludicrous, it's downright imbecilic. FLGS have every right to exist, but they're a business like any other. They have no expectation of my support nor money.

You also show a starting lack of understanding of what it is exactly that anti-monopoly laws cover. Here's a hint: they don't just cover necessities. And you are hardly any sort of arbiter on who the gaming hobby is or is not for. I have a job. As I said earlier in this thread, I have spent over a decade now working in anti-trust and consumer protection litigation support. In the market of 'board games', Hasbro is still a thing. It's a large part in why Asmodee can suck all these companies up and not run afoul of the various watchdogs.

But by all means, please keep telling me what I should and should not do with my money, for my hobby, and how I should play.

Or don't. Ya know what, that's probably a better idea.

**Pacific**

A bit over-aggressive there Steamdragon?

I think the requirement for a FLGS is somewhat different for a boardgame than a wargame. For the former you're not alone in not wanting to travel miles to a club to play with strangers, I don't think many people would. The only exception I can think for this is some big-ass strategy games that take hours and you can organise (something like Axis & Allies), where I could understand scheduling an event over a weekend. But for the most part, people play with their friends and family on a dining room table.

For wargaming it's somewhat different; the resources required to collect an army, learn the rules, build up the terrain and playing space, these are things that often only a gaming store can provide - supporting a store that provides these things (and the community can benefit from) is more understandable in that circumstance.

**jmurph**

Board games run on an intrinsically different model than wargames and CCGs. CCGs without support will die. Period. Nobody wants to collect and play a game that nobody collects and plays. Wargames can be slightly more forgiving, and there are certainly those who play with established rules in nonstore settings, but for getting any volume of new blood in, which is required to support a business, the same applies. Either you support it and have events, promos, etc. or it withers.

Board games have always been easier to play at someone's house, etc. but that is not at all helpful to the business of selling boardgames. And that is the crux of this- the business side. Large chains who started carrying board games figured out fast that space to play helps sales (and can support symbiotic business like coffee and food sales). But it *has* to facilitate sales or it is dead space sucking up money. And space always has a cost, which is why online retailing has decimated a lot of brick and mortar shops.

Antitrust laws are a red herring because no one cares about such a niche industry. Heck, it's hard to get action in multi-billion dollar industries!

As for LGS support; they have to earn it and customers are pickier than ever. Online purchasing is not going away and wargames are very niche with a low profit margin compared to most retail businesses. Diversification into other merchandise can help, but many similar products (comics, collectibles, etc.) also tend to be niche with pretty crap margins. Since the industry is a pretty poor field, it will not usually attract particularly business savvy individuals (as they will quickly asses the obvious problems), so you tend to get more hobbyist business owners, which leads to a higher rate of failure. It is not surprising to see consolidation like Amsodee; the question is whether it will be sustainable.

**streamdragon**

Pacific wrote:
A bit over-aggressive there Steamdragon?

I think the requirement for a FLGS is somewhat different for a boardgame than a wargame. For the former you're not alone in not wanting to travel miles to a club to play with strangers, I don't think many people would. The only exception I can think for this is some big-ass strategy games that take hours and you can organise (something like Axis & Allies), where I could understand scheduling an event over a weekend. But for the most part, people play with their friends and family on a dining room table.

For wargaming it's somewhat different; the resources required to collect an army, learn the rules, build up the terrain and playing space, these are things that often only a gaming store can provide - supporting a store that provides these things (and the community can benefit from) is more understandable in that circumstance.

Not really, as I wasn't the one suggesting "you don't play like I do, so you shouldn't play". It's a fairly frequent and tiring sentiment on these boards in these threads. Not everyone plays the same, suggesting one's own way is the "right way" and nothing else it okay is, well, not okay.

And my friends and I have played 40k since 2nd edition, and Fantasy through all of 8th (and like, one game of 7th I think). Despite playing at least two or three games a month, we only once ever played in a hobby store. I played more D&D in a hobby shop than I did 40k. We have played practically all day marathons of Twilight Imperium 3rd edition (axis and allies in space, essentially) without utilizing an FLGS. There is no aspect of the wargaming hobby that cannot be done at home, with friends. Somewhere in the history of these boards I have a thread about a 3 player Apocalypse game we did, including building a huge 6'x12' table in my basement.

If you have and enjoy your FLGS, by all means please do. Once upon a time over a decade ago I was in walking distance of an FLGS and I went there all the time. That's where I played the one game of 40k I mentioned earlier. I played D&D, Rifts and Robotech (the old Palladium RPG) there as well. I'd go there just to hang out and watch other games. If I still had that store, maybe I would order my stuff through there instead of MM, but I do not. That doesn't mean this hobby 'isn't for me' though.

jmurph wrote:
Antitrust laws are a red herring because no one cares about such a niche industry. Heck, it's hard to get action in multi-billion dollar industries!

You would be surprised the sorts of things the government looks/looked into. They may decide that nothing needs to be done, especially in an area where giants like Milton Bradley or Hasbro still exist, but that doesn't mean they don't pay attention.

**AegisGrimm**

Been in the gaming hobby since 6th grade, and I am turning 35 in a week. Never played in a FLGS.

**SagesStone**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Prohibited brick & mortar shops from selling products online, through our own websites, not even Amazon

Why isn't this illegal?

Simple, one side has more of these little guys.

May or may not be the prototype for the new GW/Asmodee mascot.

**ced1106**

n0t_u wrote:
Simple, one side has more of these little guys.

Speaking of Amazon...

One of the Asmodee publicity blurbs could be read as making exceptions for some online sellers -- such as Amazon, Target, and Walmart. These online stores, i would think, have more leverage (and little guys) than Asmodee.

Additionally, a gamer video I saw speculated that this consolidation can act as a "one stop" supplier of hobby games to Big Box stores (both online and brick and mortar, such as Barnes and Noble).

Putting on my tin foil hat, the FLGS support is a smoke screen for Asmodee to obey the big online sellers by reducing discounts to the OLGS, which these big online sellers consider to be competition.

The FLGS is still useful. Miniature wargamers depend on the FLGS more than boardgamers do, so FFG still needs the FLGS to support the Star Wars miniature and collectible dice games.