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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






TBF battle brew desperately needs an errata to make it 1/game as is no doubt rai.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF battle brew desperately needs an errata to make it 1/game as is no doubt rai.


Meanwhile I'll abuse the feth out of it because it IS the best option unless the opponent spams the hell out of mortal wounds... so 90% of the time in my meta BB is better.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Pittsburgh

Huh I have had some great games againt ironjawz with minotaurs. I have won each of them so far though. Some by a landslide and some not. This is what I have personally used:
1 doombull
3 units of 3 minotaurs with great weapons
1 ghorgon
Bullgor stampede battalion.
The matches practically come down to who gets to go first in the combat phase. The extra charging mortal wounds and the extra attacks from bloodgreed have tipped it my way so far.

My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 cranect wrote:
Huh I have had some great games againt ironjawz with minotaurs. I have won each of them so far though. Some by a landslide and some not. This is what I have personally used:
1 doombull
3 units of 3 minotaurs with great weapons
1 ghorgon
Bullgor stampede battalion.
The matches practically come down to who gets to go first in the combat phase. The extra charging mortal wounds and the extra attacks from bloodgreed have tipped it my way so far.


Uhhh, no offense but against this list Ironjaws should win, specially if they pack a couple of brutes who will be having a field day, because I fought that army and slaughtered it without much of an issue.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Its like he said; who swings first. A minotaur unit like that will deal 8.5 average wounds from swinging, or 11 including charge wounds. A brute unit will do an average of ~7 back (including re rolls). Whichever unit swings first is going to have a big advantage, so it's two armies where the most likely result is one side getting slaughtered and very rarely a close battle.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Its like he said; who swings first. A minotaur unit like that will deal 8.5 average wounds from swinging, or 11 including charge wounds. A brute unit will do an average of ~7 back (including re rolls). Whichever unit swings first is going to have a big advantage, so it's two armies where the most likely result is one side getting slaughtered and very rarely a close battle.


Not exactly (the damage output). It would apply to the first activation but not the second because it would be mine. Assuming 3 units get locked and he manages to get the charge initiative it would go this way: 1 unit gets but raped, and only 2 survive (I'll assume they had inspiring pressence in them): the gore-choppa and boss survive. Then a unit of 5 brutes fights back. Assuming the klaw hits, we are looking a 66% of rolling automatically 2d3 damage, which can easily translate in a dead minotaur. Potentially, a boss can kill two minotaurs by himself. And then comes the damage of the rest of the squad (with the dual choppas doing 5.97-6 unsaved wounds by themselves). Two units of brutes would get boned but they'd get to return and do some serious damage. Most likely the minotaurs would dominate a flank, and one unit of brutes would be boned by the battleshock. BUT the ironjaw player would have an intact unit. In that scenario, even if the minotaurs get to swing first we are looking at a third of their units getting wiped out and then the remaining unit losing a third due to the wounds made by the brutes' retaliation: that wave of confrontation (assuming no one ran away), despite being equal in pointcost ended up in the brutes losing 60% of two units, and the warherds loosing 33% of two units and 100% of one unit: 166% (worst case scenario ramping up to 232% of a unit) versus 120% (worst case 160%) even when getting the charge (and brutes are more likely to get the charge in an ironfist and the megaboss close) and under the best circumstamces they can't win the brutes.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






You are assuming the minotaur player has no idea what he's doing and puts himself in an extremely bad position, and tailoring your original one-brute-unit list specifically to fight his. I think it would come down to who is better on the tabletop, obviously you have both beaten armies like each-others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 16:19:52


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You are assuming the minotaur player has no idea what he's doing and puts himself in an extremely bad position, and tailoring your original one-brute-unit list specifically to fight his. I think it would come down to who is better on the tabletop, obviously you have both beaten armies like each-others.


Just to make an example. Also, nevermind that my brutes would be more likely to get to swing first as they move 11-13'' on average and I have the gruntas ( 15-17'' on average) with me so it's more pheasible for me to deny him the charge bonus. Also this list isn't taylored as I can easily change the brutes for ardboys if I feel like it on a whim, after all they cost the same. Also it's not bad positioning, but just a frontal clash. I would in no way be too scattered against this kind of army (I'm never, to begin with). I could well use it this list to play the objectives and pull it more efficiently than him: my units in cover will be 3+ (down to 5+ with the rend. I know) and will bet more attacks than him all while being better bravery (mainly bravery 8-7 barring the brutes who ought to end up alone by the end of their combats) so I can turn this into a slugfest wihout fear of losing the objectives, since I'll almost always have more models than him.

What to do with my list if I want to make this a meat grinder?

1) Make a schiltrom: boys at the front, and the rest behind: 2'' behind the boys (so they can do the 3'' activation). Against this list I'd likely want to make a solid 20 man blob (which Is a possibility I've been entertaining for a while after a few battles, just to minimize activations and maximize boons)
2) The minotaurs charge. THe ardboyz will most likely be slaughtered but they'll absorb the damage while the heavy hitters can pile in and hit back. With look I've bloodied them a bit.
3) Should I get to start my turn (either because I went second or because I had won the initiative) I activate the WAAAGH and the warchanter's bonus on the brutes.
4) I hit back and hit like trucks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 16:54:24


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Ok, that list is just bad against Ironjawz and your faction should stomp it every time

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ok, that list is just bad against Ironjawz and your faction should stomp it every time

His or mine, right now I feel like I'm missing something, so absorbed I was ellaborating why and how i feel I could pull it. XD
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

So what was the consensus on the allegiance question? If I field an entire army of Ironjaws models, they would have Ironjawz and Destruction allegiances. I can only select one Allegiance for the game, right?

If I declare Destruction in a pitched battle, then I don't have any Ironjawz Battleline units. Can I still use a Warscroll Battalion for Ironjawz? Do they still count as Ironjawz? Do they get the Ironjawz abilities in all the other Warscrolls?

If I declare Ironjaws, then I lose out on all the Destruction benefits- the Battle Trait, Command Trait, and Artifacts. Do they still count as Destruction?

That's what the FAQ means, right? Either or, but not both. I pick ONE Allegiance, and that's the allegiance I have for the rest of the battle? The only battleline units without a specific requirement for an allegiance are Bonespitterz (Savage Orruks), Grots (Gitmob Grunts), Orruks (Greenskinz), Ogors (Gutbusters), Grots (Moonclan Grots).

Seems rather strange in AoS that this is the one time when everything doesn't stack, and that you can't field an entire Ironjawz army with the Destruction Allegiance without taking some other units.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The FAQ made it so you can take the grand alliance bonuses for allegiance even if you are using a sub-faction allegiance. This means that you can declare Ironjawz allegiance (for the improved battleline options) and also get the benefits of destruction allegiance (the command trait, artifact, etc.). Battalions have an allegiance of their own that overrides the component units (for example, the Sylvaneth+Stormcast battalion counts only as Syvaneth), but do not require any allegiance to use. This does not at all affect the keywords and thus any synergies on the tabletop.

So basically the best case scenario for all of your questions.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The FAQ made it so you can take the grand alliance bonuses for allegiance even if you are using a sub-faction allegiance. This means that you can declare Ironjawz allegiance (for the improved battleline options) and also get the benefits of destruction allegiance (the command trait, artifact, etc.). Battalions have an allegiance of their own that overrides the component units (for example, the Sylvaneth+Stormcast battalion counts only as Syvaneth), but do not require any allegiance to use. This does not at all affect the keywords and thus any synergies on the tabletop.

So basically the best case scenario for all of your questions.


In a sense, there is a "Grand Allegiance", an "Army Allegiance", and a "Warscroll Allegiance"?

For me, that means I can take an army of all Ironjawz models, declare the Grand Allegiance Destruction, get all those benefits, and also have the "Ironjwaz" Army Allegiance, meaning I can now take Ironjawz warscrolls as Battleline units (specific ones listed in the GH). Last, any Ironjawz models count as Ironjawz models.

Basically, in a pitched battle, my army of all Ironjawz models is a Destruction army so I get the Battle Trait, Command Trait, and Artifact of Destruction. My army is also Ironjawz, so the listed warscrolls in the Generals Handbook are Battleline Units for my army. My army is also Ironjawz so they get all the army wide benefits of being Ironjaws, right?

Now, if I add a warscroll unit that is destruction but not Ironjawz, I can still claim Destruction, but I lose the army Ironjawz allegiance, and thus the Battleline Ironjaws units, right?


Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Tamwulf wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The FAQ made it so you can take the grand alliance bonuses for allegiance even if you are using a sub-faction allegiance. This means that you can declare Ironjawz allegiance (for the improved battleline options) and also get the benefits of destruction allegiance (the command trait, artifact, etc.). Battalions have an allegiance of their own that overrides the component units (for example, the Sylvaneth+Stormcast battalion counts only as Syvaneth), but do not require any allegiance to use. This does not at all affect the keywords and thus any synergies on the tabletop.

So basically the best case scenario for all of your questions.


In a sense, there is a "Grand Allegiance", an "Army Allegiance", and a "Warscroll Allegiance"?

For me, that means I can take an army of all Ironjawz models, declare the Grand Allegiance Destruction, get all those benefits, and also have the "Ironjwaz" Army Allegiance, meaning I can now take Ironjawz warscrolls as Battleline units (specific ones listed in the GH). Last, any Ironjawz models count as Ironjawz models.

Basically, in a pitched battle, my army of all Ironjawz models is a Destruction army so I get the Battle Trait, Command Trait, and Artifact of Destruction. My army is also Ironjawz, so the listed warscrolls in the Generals Handbook are Battleline Units for my army. My army is also Ironjawz so they get all the army wide benefits of being Ironjaws, right?

Now, if I add a warscroll unit that is destruction but not Ironjawz, I can still claim Destruction, but I lose the army Ironjawz allegiance, and thus the Battleline Ironjaws units, right?

Yes to all of those.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 Tamwulf wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The FAQ made it so you can take the grand alliance bonuses for allegiance even if you are using a sub-faction allegiance. This means that you can declare Ironjawz allegiance (for the improved battleline options) and also get the benefits of destruction allegiance (the command trait, artifact, etc.). Battalions have an allegiance of their own that overrides the component units (for example, the Sylvaneth+Stormcast battalion counts only as Syvaneth), but do not require any allegiance to use. This does not at all affect the keywords and thus any synergies on the tabletop.

So basically the best case scenario for all of your questions.


In a sense, there is a "Grand Allegiance", an "Army Allegiance", and a "Warscroll Allegiance"?

For me, that means I can take an army of all Ironjawz models, declare the Grand Allegiance Destruction, get all those benefits, and also have the "Ironjwaz" Army Allegiance, meaning I can now take Ironjawz warscrolls as Battleline units (specific ones listed in the GH). Last, any Ironjawz models count as Ironjawz models.

Basically, in a pitched battle, my army of all Ironjawz models is a Destruction army so I get the Battle Trait, Command Trait, and Artifact of Destruction. My army is also Ironjawz, so the listed warscrolls in the Generals Handbook are Battleline Units for my army. My army is also Ironjawz so they get all the army wide benefits of being Ironjaws, right?

Now, if I add a warscroll unit that is destruction but not Ironjawz, I can still claim Destruction, but I lose the army Ironjawz allegiance, and thus the Battleline Ironjaws units, right?



A good analogy is chapter tactics from 40k. You can choose chapter tactics (alleigance/ironjaws, bonesplitterz, etc) but you're still space marines (alliance/destruction). IF you mix in units with different chapter tactics you lose the aformentioned bonuses but still are marines. In both cases you're marines, only that the first makes a distinction of specific marines.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Hmmm I have built a Warherd army, so apparently I can have my Bullgors as Battlelines AND have the Chaos Battle Trait too then?

Not as good as the Destruction one, but something. Though I do feel the sub-Allegiance bonuses should be categorized in the rules as an Allegiance Ability.

It would force the player to choose between taking awesome Battleline untis, or using their Grand Alliance Battle Trait. But so long as the consensus is we don't have to pick, so be it.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Malathrim wrote:
Hmmm I have built a Warherd army, so apparently I can have my Bullgors as Battlelines AND have the Chaos Battle Trait too then?

Not as good as the Destruction one, but something. Though I do feel the sub-Allegiance bonuses should be categorized in the rules as an Allegiance Ability.

It would force the player to choose between taking awesome Battleline untis, or using their Grand Alliance Battle Trait. But so long as the consensus is we don't have to pick, so be it.
I believe the idea is that limiting yourself to, say, warherds-only is already enough of a tax to get the unit(s) as battleline. It means cutting yourself off from a large portion of the alliance and thus a great deal of options to improve your list, so I don't think the benefit is unjustified.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'm not really sure what I'd do against a list like this with Sylvaneth. I think Gnarlroot Wargrove shenanigans with Sisters of the Thorn making a huge unit of prickly dryads could do OK, but that isn't something you can actually fit at the 1000 points level. I haven't really thought that much about 1k point Sylvaneth lists honestly.

With Tomb Kings I think there are a number of options. The most broken TK stuff is out because it's pretty hard to really make Settra work at the 1k points level (I think, might be wrong about that). I'd be tempted to focus on facing it head on in melee with a build focused on attrition. I think something like the following would work as a good basis:

Royal Warsphinx with Red Fury and Tomb Blade
2 x 10 skeletons
6-9 Necropolis Knights

If 6 NK, then add a Herald maybe and some 80 point unit (carrion perhaps?).


Your stuff is faster, so you will get first contact. I'd hope to use the skeletons as a speedbump so that I might get the opportunity to counterpunch. Either way, it's going to end up with a big pile-up, and I'd have to hope that the incredible tankiness of my stuff would allow me to outlast the ironjawz. The damage output of the NK is no joke, and the Royal Warsphinx is a beast too given that it is very tough and heals wounds with the Tomb Blade.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Just filling up a list with TK Chariots and Necro Knights will beat non-tournament lists pretty handily due to how awesome those free banners are.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

As time wears on and the shelving of the Tomb Kings by GW, the Tomb King threat will become less and less. A new player probably won't be able to play a Tomb King army unless he gets it all second hand.

The thing about this list is that it's basically the Start Collecting Box for the Ironjawz with a few extra's- the Megaboss and Brutes. At 1,000 points, this is the list you are always going to play. Even at 2000 points, it's basically double the list unless they field a Megaboss on a Maw Crusher. At 2,000 points though, you have more options and ways of dealing with the Ironjawz. At 1,000 points? Good luck. A good Ironjawz player will run rings around anyone at 1,000.

I played against that 1,000 point Dwarf list with the cannon, Long Beards, Shield Guard, Unbreakable standard, reroll saves, reroll hits, and the Dwarf Lord of Murder Blender... didn't matter. They might as well have been a field of wheat, and my Ironjawz the combine that harvested them.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just filling up a list with TK Chariots and Necro Knights will beat non-tournament lists pretty handily due to how awesome those free banners are.



I'm actually not at all convinced that chariots would be enough in this case. It would take some time for an Ironjawz player to work through the chariots because of the banner like you said, but chariots are only really nasty on the charge. The ironjawz are fast enough that they will be the ones charging a good percent of the time.


Edit: I'd also argue that this kind of Ironjawz list is at or close to "tournament list" level. It's not a top tier tournament list, most likely, but it's well above the casual tier for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 17:05:27


 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

swarmofseals wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just filling up a list with TK Chariots and Necro Knights will beat non-tournament lists pretty handily due to how awesome those free banners are.



I'm actually not at all convinced that chariots would be enough in this case. It would take some time for an Ironjawz player to work through the chariots because of the banner like you said, but chariots are only really nasty on the charge. The ironjawz are fast enough that they will be the ones charging a good percent of the time.


Edit: I'd also argue that this kind of Ironjawz list is at or close to "tournament list" level. It's not a top tier tournament list, most likely, but it's well above the casual tier for sure.


Thing is, it's hard to make a list "casual" on Ironjaws. Even without the bonus of the ironfist the will move on average 7'' (so above average speed) and are very tough and strong. A warboss should be always the go-to general as he's the only leader with a command ability.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






swarmofseals wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just filling up a list with TK Chariots and Necro Knights will beat non-tournament lists pretty handily due to how awesome those free banners are.



I'm actually not at all convinced that chariots would be enough in this case. It would take some time for an Ironjawz player to work through the chariots because of the banner like you said, but chariots are only really nasty on the charge. The ironjawz are fast enough that they will be the ones charging a good percent of the time.


Edit: I'd also argue that this kind of Ironjawz list is at or close to "tournament list" level. It's not a top tier tournament list, most likely, but it's well above the casual tier for sure.
I agree with both of those.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lord Kragan wrote:
swarmofseals wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just filling up a list with TK Chariots and Necro Knights will beat non-tournament lists pretty handily due to how awesome those free banners are.



I'm actually not at all convinced that chariots would be enough in this case. It would take some time for an Ironjawz player to work through the chariots because of the banner like you said, but chariots are only really nasty on the charge. The ironjawz are fast enough that they will be the ones charging a good percent of the time.


Edit: I'd also argue that this kind of Ironjawz list is at or close to "tournament list" level. It's not a top tier tournament list, most likely, but it's well above the casual tier for sure.


Thing is, it's hard to make a list "casual" on Ironjaws. Even without the bonus of the ironfist the will move on average 7'' (so above average speed) and are very tough and strong. A warboss should be always the go-to general as he's the only leader with a command ability.



Yeah, I imagine that it would be somewhat of a challenge to make a truly casual ironjaws list simply because all of the units are solid and there aren't that many to choose from. Not taking Ironfist would definitely help. They'd still be fast (vaguely similar speed to Sylvaneth) but not quite as oppressively so. Sometimes that extra d6 will mean a one turn difference in approach time, which helps balance things out against more shooty armies greatly.

I think taking suboptimal command/artefact loadouts will also help. Drinking battlebrew every single turn is pretty absurd. If you really want to make your army soft just don't take these at all.

One last thing you can do is take suboptimal unit sizes. The megaboss' command ability is much less impressive if it's less reliable. So, taking something like:

Warboss
Warchanter
20 Ardboys
5 Brutes
5 Gore Gruntas

actually makes a significant difference vs. splitting the ardboys into min sizes.


Of course beyond that you can just take a mixed destruction force with Ironjawz in it and be more casual.
   
 
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