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Lord Kragan wrote:

Table wrote:


Lord of Skulls is considered a CSM unit with an entry in traitors hate. And heldrakes come from the codex. But your point is still true. While you can use the CSM dex solo, its not going to end well. Also for the record, ive seen other lists win. This one is just our currently "accepted" tourney list.
I cannot say I have won yet, because I have yet to play (still painting and converting. have played necrons previously) . But im fairly certain ill get a few wins in , even vs eldar. You see people like to forget about things like mission type, scenario rules and treat every game as a kill point game. Now, not accounting for your meta in your circles. But in mine and id wager most others, kill point games are not seen. In my meta its all maelstrom missions or scenarios. This isnt also taking into account one HUGE factor in this game. Luck. You can bring a a top tier filthy scatter bike list but if you roll horribly you are going to have a hard time.

If your meta is nothing but tournament lists and kill point slug fests then yes, we are one of the worst codex's and never win games outside of our ONE tourey list. And i would suggest shelving the army if winning in those conditions is what matters to you.

Oh god, you're sounding soooo condescending right now. Also, if you're relying on luck, you're going to be dissapointed. And even with luck, you'll lose against a filthy eldar list. Period.

I fail to see how ive been anything other than to the point and polite. I guess it got lost in translation. To be fair, im not relying on luck nor am I telling anyone else to. But it is a factor, just as the other points ive brought up but you failed to read over (or maybe you did read them but dont have a comment or rebuttal.) Once more, people on dakka (for the most part, exceptions exist) would rather just state that every game is a killpoint brawl and every game you face a hardcore eldar cheese list. None of that is even remotely true..But i guess it is easier than hitting the books and reading what little traitors hate has brought us and coming up with new fun lists. Hell maybe even a tourney list will pop up out of it (doubtful).

The point im making, is that CSM isnt trash tier nor is it the worst codex in the game. And I stand by that.

Sudowoodo1 wrote:

Table wrote:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
"Ive seen csm win games, the army still has harder lists (belakor + lord of skulls + heldrakes)"

Sorry for the badly done quote, I'm on phone and this is the only part I really wanted to focus on. The problem with this army that you've seen win, is that although it's a CSM army, only one of the units you've highlighted are actually from the Codex. Belakor is a dataslate, the Lord of Skulls is a massively expensive (point wise) superheavy from one of the forgeworld books.

If an army needs to look outside of its own Codex to be viable in anything more than the most casual setting, then that Codex is bad. It is not achieving it's intended goal; Allowing a player to use an army to play games with a reasonable chance of winning.

Orks: need FW support to really shine. Dark Eldar: need to use allies to keep an edge. Chaos Space Marines: need supplements and dataslates to be a worthwhile force. The top tier codices don't need that, they have everything they need to win already in their book. Eldar don't need to bring along a Scorpion superheavy to give them a better chance of winning. Vanilla Space Marines don't have to buy dataslates and supplements to remain competitive.

It's frankly ridiculous that the codices at the bottom of the pile either spend 3-4 times the amount on extra rules/allies just to be at a similar level to the top books, or have to make their peace with forever being the underdog.

Sorry for the rant, but this "I've seen such and such army win" really winds me up when at its basic level, that army is a hollow representation of its Codex.

Lord of Skulls is considered a CSM unit with an entry in traitors hate. And heldrakes come from the codex. But your point is still true. While you can use the CSM dex solo, its not going to end well. Also for the record, ive seen other lists win. This one is just our currently "accepted" tourney list.
I cannot say I have won yet, because I have yet to play (still painting and converting. have played necrons previously) . But im fairly certain ill get a few wins in , even vs eldar. You see people like to forget about things like mission type, scenario rules and treat every game as a kill point game. Now, not accounting for your meta in your circles. But in mine and id wager most others, kill point games are not seen. In my meta its all maelstrom missions or scenarios. This isnt also taking into account one HUGE factor in this game. Luck. You can bring a a top tier filthy scatter bike list but if you roll horribly you are going to have a hard time.

If your meta is nothing but tournament lists and kill point slug fests then yes, we are one of the worst codex's and never win games outside of our ONE tourey list. And i would suggest shelving the army if winning in those conditions is what matters to you.

You're right, playing to the objectives in a maelstrom game is going to give you a better chance of winning. And luck is definitely a deciding factor. However, my issue is not so much about winning itself, but how much we at the bottom have to spend just to be in the same league as the top. We literally pay more cash, by paying for supplements like Traitors Hate, just to even play on a level field alongside higher tier codices. And then when we do pay extra, we're forced into sub-par purchases points-wise (Warpsmiths anyone?) simply because the original entry in the codex is overpriced and ineffective. So now not only are we paying more cash, but we have to take inefficient units at a higher points cost, just to be able to use a formation that in theory, should put us on a level chance against higher codices. Basically what I'm trying to say there is that our "tax" for a lot of our formations is higher than it should be, for which we are getting less effective units, which in turn means that we will literally never have that level chance.

And as for shelving the army, I did that a few years ago when 90% of my Worldeater force got stolen. I've just been playing my Dark Eldar since then, which although suffers from the same kinds of problem, I at least don't have to drop a load more money on building just to know that I'm probably going to lose most of the time. As soon as a decent (core) Codex for CSM gets released, I'll dive right back at them. But for now there's no reason to buy an entirely new neutered army when I have a perfectly good one sat at home to lose with.

Fair enough, and I agree with most of what you type. We do have a rather silly and somewhat insulting tax. In the end we are ahead of orcs and tyranids by a decent margin and let snot bring up SoB, those poor sobs. I think another huge problem facing the army is that as long as GW sees the army as a punching bag and a generic villiian force to be defeated then CSM at some point is going to be a in SoB territory. Which is not enough people buying the mini's to warrant a update. Our next codex will probably be the make or break edition for us. because for evey player like myself joining the forces of chaos, we have 5 leaving for greener pastures.

Indeed. I truly hope we get a Codex that actually reflects the lore that we are the singular biggest threat to the imperium (although, every non-imperial Codex gives that spiel).

And for what it's worth, I don't believe you've been condescending at all.

The narrative for chaos space marines is to lose the mission but claim Abaddon actually ordered you to play Relic!

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
Indeed. I truly hope we get a Codex that actually reflects the lore that we are the singular biggest threat to the imperium (although, every non-imperial Codex gives that spiel).

And for what it's worth, I don't believe you've been condescending at all.

They aren't the biggest threat. Necrons, Tyranids, and Eldar are.

Chaos is supposed to be the biggest threat, as it is a dual nature threat, from both within and without, borne from the Imperium's (and mankind in general) own sins. The Eldar have never been portrayed as anything like the biggest threat to the Imperium, theyre a dying race that can manipulate things to their advantage sometimes but arent capable of directly defeating or destroying the Imperium. Necrons are still a very unknown threat level for most of the Imperium and their lore has changed radically of late. Only the Tyranids really directly rival Chaos for greatest nemesis.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They aren't the biggest threat. Necrons, Tyranids, and Eldar are.

Eldar? Noo. Eldar are a classic foe, certainly, but not nearly the threat that Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons pose. Of those three, Chaos and Necrons are still likely to keep humans around as slaves. Tyranid victory eradicates everything. Total endgame.

If they could, Eldar would probably drive humanity to backwater worlds, and then forget about them. But there just aren't that many Eldar around, and they have bigger issues to deal with than the Imperium.

Khorne chaos marines were my first ever 40k army back in Rogue Trader and I still have that army today. It has been added to, modified and tweaked over 25+ years of gaming. I still love it and just finally built the greater brass scorpion I acquired for it from forgeworld.

The way I keep enjoying is by having a gaming group that plays 40k to a lower power level than the standard high end power meta all the time. Our one Tau player has a single Riptide. One of my armies is eldar ghost warriors, but I don't use the latest codex because I don't really want to D spam my friends. I also only use my wraithknight when my Black templar opponent wants to use his knight. All pretty simple. Within this meta my chaos marines can still win consistently because our goal is fun games no curb stomping. Sometimes the curb stomps happen, but they are the standard.

I have 4 different chaos marine armies, each allied to one of the 4 chaos deities. They have slightly different feels and all have multiple forge world models added into the mix to make them varied and interesting. I also have a fully converted renegades/lost and the damned army which I sometimes run as renegades and sometimes run as IG. Also have forces for all 4 powers with daemons as well. I play them in various combinations and still have fun with them.

If I was stuck playing in local stores only regularly I would probably stick to my renegades,dark angels and space wolves more often, but am glad I don't have to because is where my heart is when it comes to 40k.

 Skriker wrote:
Khorne chaos marines were my first ever 40k army back in Rogue Trader and I still have that army today. It has been added to, modified and tweaked over 25+ years of gaming. I still love it and just finally built the greater brass scorpion I acquired for it from forgeworld.

The way I keep enjoying is by having a gaming group that plays 40k to a lower power level than the standard high end power meta all the time. Our one Tau player has a single Riptide. One of my armies is eldar ghost warriors, but I don't use the latest codex because I don't really want to D spam my friends. I also only use my wraithknight when my Black templar opponent wants to use his knight. All pretty simple. Within this meta my chaos marines can still win consistently because our goal is fun games no curb stomping. Sometimes the curb stomps happen, but they are the standard.

I have 4 different chaos marine armies, each allied to one of the 4 chaos deities. They have slightly different feels and all have multiple forge world models added into the mix to make them varied and interesting. I also have a fully converted renegades/lost and the damned army which I sometimes run as renegades and sometimes run as IG. Also have forces for all 4 powers with daemons as well. I play them in various combinations and still have fun with them.

If I was stuck playing in local stores only regularly I would probably stick to my renegades,dark angels and space wolves more often, but am glad I don't have to because is where my heart is when it comes to 40k.

Hey man, that's awesome to hear! Since I only play my friend who has the OP elder army these days, I don't have much options. Pretty much all his stuff is OP and it would be too much to ask him to maybe invest in lots of other stuff that isn't as powerful. He might simply say, "why don't you buy stuff that is more powerful?" So I think the most realistic option for me, is to agree on some kind of house rules that could balance our armies vs each other, or maybe play some type of scenario game type that could balance the armies. For example, if he brought 2000 points of his nastiest stuff, and his objective was to hold some location, then I could probably bring over 3000 points of stuff with the goal of overrunning his position. I honestly believe that his army would put up a good fight if not straight out win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
Indeed. I truly hope we get a Codex that actually reflects the lore that we are the singular biggest threat to the imperium (although, every non-imperial Codex gives that spiel).

And for what it's worth, I don't believe you've been condescending at all.

They aren't the biggest threat. Necrons, Tyranids, and Eldar are.

Ill give you that Tyranids are probably the biggest issue in the lore. But not at the moment. Its going to take a while for the full weight of the fleets to come to bear on the galaxy. The necrons are in much the same territory as they are just starting to awaken and it can be hundreds of more years before they are ready to push out. And eldar? Now I think you are either a chaos hater or a troll. The Eldar, while mighty on the table top, are one of the weakest overall threats to anyone seeing as they are having problems trying to not go extinct.

There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.

Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.

 stealth992 wrote:
There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.

Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.

Or you can play games to you know, have fun and not worry about winning all the time? You may even find the mythical game where its not a killpoint brawl vs a scatbike eldar player. Sorry, I know that comes off as snarky. But there is something to be said for it.

It's nice to win games. You don't have to win all the time, but you always want to feel like you have a chance.

And CSM versus Eldar? Without some pretty ridiculous shenanigans and a badly played/made Eldar force, you don't have a chance, be it kill points, Eternal War, or Maelstrom.

Table wrote:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
"Ive seen csm win games, the army still has harder lists (belakor + lord of skulls + heldrakes)"

Sorry for the badly done quote, I'm on phone and this is the only part I really wanted to focus on. The problem with this army that you've seen win, is that although it's a CSM army, only one of the units you've highlighted are actually from the Codex. Belakor is a dataslate, the Lord of Skulls is a massively expensive (point wise) superheavy from one of the forgeworld books.

If an army needs to look outside of its own Codex to be viable in anything more than the most casual setting, then that Codex is bad. It is not achieving it's intended goal; Allowing a player to use an army to play games with a reasonable chance of winning.

Orks: need FW support to really shine. Dark Eldar: need to use allies to keep an edge. Chaos Space Marines: need supplements and dataslates to be a worthwhile force. The top tier codices don't need that, they have everything they need to win already in their book. Eldar don't need to bring along a Scorpion superheavy to give them a better chance of winning. Vanilla Space Marines don't have to buy dataslates and supplements to remain competitive.

It's frankly ridiculous that the codices at the bottom of the pile either spend 3-4 times the amount on extra rules/allies just to be at a similar level to the top books, or have to make their peace with forever being the underdog.

Sorry for the rant, but this "I've seen such and such army win" really winds me up when at its basic level, that army is a hollow representation of its Codex.

Lord of Skulls is considered a CSM unit with an entry in traitors hate. And heldrakes come from the codex. But your point is still true. While you can use the CSM dex solo, its not going to end well. Also for the record, ive seen other lists win. This one is just our currently "accepted" tourney list.
I cannot say I have won yet, because I have yet to play (still painting and converting. have played necrons previously) . But im fairly certain ill get a few wins in , even vs eldar. You see people like to forget about things like mission type, scenario rules and treat every game as a kill point game. Now, not accounting for your meta in your circles. But in mine and id wager most others, kill point games are not seen. In my meta its all maelstrom missions or scenarios. This isnt also taking into account one HUGE factor in this game. Luck. You can bring a a top tier filthy scatter bike list but if you roll horribly you are going to have a hard time.

If your meta is nothing but tournament lists and kill point slug fests then yes, we are one of the worst codex's and never win games outside of our ONE tourey list. And i would suggest shelving the army if winning in those conditions is what matters to you.

Eldar roll so many dice they can't roll poorly. That's kinda their thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sudowoodo1 wrote:
Indeed. I truly hope we get a Codex that actually reflects the lore that we are the singular biggest threat to the imperium (although, every non-imperial Codex gives that spiel).

And for what it's worth, I don't believe you've been condescending at all.

If amuses me that you think you can challenge the tau or eldar.

Did someone really say the Lord OF Skulls was good?

I don't even know that that does. Is it a super heavy?

It is a 888 point super heavy walker that can't stomp.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is a 888 point super heavy walker that can't stomp.

For reasons..... but not the same reasons as eldar lol!

Like much of the Chaos range, the Lord of Skulls has a cool rule concept (every HP lost = 1 extra attack) which is badly put in practice/doesn't work well. It can't keep up with the likes of the Wraithknight and Imperial Knight when in combat, because against D weapons, it doesn't matter how many attacks you have or how good your armour is - you get decimated either way.

and you can take 3 wraithknights for one LOS, when you only need 1 to kill it.

For those that dont know, the point of the Belakor list is to make Lord of Skulls useful. On its own its horribly overcosted and subject to d-baggery but with Belakor and some heldrake support it can actually do SOMETHING...sometimes. Its not the strongest list in 40k by a long shot, but it can work, and has. Look I understand Im the new guy entering a smoke filled bar with grumpy old one eyed, hard fighting hard farting vets with steel wool for stubble and quite possibly missing a few digits. Chaos is not in a good place when you look to things like Tau, Eldar and Gladius. But I stand by my points that the codex is not the "worst" and has value on some levels, stands. Be it because our meta doesnt have scatbike d-bag eldar or because you regularly play more down to earth armies. Hell even if my meta was full of pimple backed wraithbag scatbike try-hards I would still play chaos. Because to some people, winning isnt everything. Id rather lose with a army I loved than win with a army I dont.

Now this all fine and dandy. But I also have to make an apology. I somehow didnt register that this thread was a sanctioned support group thread and i had no business trying to make it anything but. And with respect to this revelation I bring you the following tears.

On what planet, in what universe did GW exist on when they priced Khorne Bezerkers. I mean they would be viable at 10 points. But 20+? They dont even match the lore GW puts forth for them at any price. If the best the lord of skulls can muster is some one attack chump with a ap4 weapon that costs extra ontop of a bloated point cost, then I say "Crom, I spit on you."

I believe an unmarked possessed model is only one point less then a scatbike....... I apologize for the language..... but that's MALARKY!

XvReaperXv wrote:
I believe an unmarked possessed model is only one point less then a scatbike....... I apologize for the language..... but that's MALARKY!

Or how about the Deflier whos 75 points over costed and its nearest cousin, the soul grinder is better and 2/3rds the cost.....with skyfire, at BS3, But still. At least you can ally in A soul grinder.

You can get 3 Soul Grinders in a formation. It has no drawbacks.

Table wrote:
For those that dont know, the point of the Belakor list is to make Lord of Skulls useful. On its own its horribly overcosted and subject to d-baggery but with Belakor and some heldrake support it can actually do SOMETHING...sometimes. Its not the strongest list in 40k by a long shot, but it can work, and has. Look I understand Im the new guy entering a smoke filled bar with grumpy old one eyed, hard fighting hard farting vets with steel wool for stubble and quite possibly missing a few digits. Chaos is not in a good place when you look to things like Tau, Eldar and Gladius. But I stand by my points that the codex is not the "worst" and has value on some levels, stands. Be it because our meta doesnt have scatbike d-bag eldar or because you regularly play more down to earth armies. Hell even if my meta was full of pimple backed wraithbag scatbike try-hards I would still play chaos. Because to some people, winning isnt everything. Id rather lose with a army I loved than win with a army I dont.

Now this all fine and dandy. But I also have to make an apology. I somehow didnt register that this thread was a sanctioned support group thread and i had no business trying to make it anything but. And with respect to this revelation I bring you the following tears.

On what planet, in what universe did GW exist on when they priced Khorne Bezerkers. I mean they would be viable at 10 points. But 20+? They dont even match the lore GW puts forth for them at any price. If the best the lord of skulls can muster is some one attack chump with a ap4 weapon that costs extra ontop of a bloated point cost, then I say "Crom, I spit on you."

Yeah. So here's my two biggest tears. 1) Defilers are my favourite unit and model of all time. I own two. And I they are so bad that I can't bear to play with them. I run them as soul grinders, so I least I get to use the models I paid for. 2) Khorne Berzerkers, the backbone of CSM Khorne devotion, are absolute crap. I'm not sure what is worse, defilers or berzerkers. Either way it's a long sad tear for my berzerkers.

I had 3rd edition necrons, have a chaos army (Night lords favoured) and a Tyranid swarm. Cry me a river.

I solved all my problems by buying a typhon and kitting it out with ceramite armor and some warpsmiths and sorcerers rolling for warp metal.

A 7 inch S10 ap 2 Ignore cover blast is a lovely thing to see.

The chaos model range is terrible right now. If chaos gets a power boost next codex/edition we might get some decent models. The fact that every plastic chaos marine has mk. VI robot pants is so frustrating. How can we take the scope of the chaos legions and renegades long exile with UNIFORM mk.VI robot pants exclusively? It was a lazy modeling job and now we are paying for it. I should have been Mk4 and Mk5 mostly and some Mk2/3/6. A generous mix not unlike the space marine tactical squad box. The DV chosen and the plastic raptors has shown us it can be done, but its a lot of kits and boxes that will need to be remade. Any way, hail hydra.

 stealth992 wrote:
There is no hope verses elder. You have to break your back to counter them, and they just need to maneuver slightly differently to counter you. Your only option as chaos is to shelve your army for now and pick up another army, or sell your army outright because you can't afford a brand new army. No use hanging on to the army either because chaos isn't going to be up to speed for at least three more years is my guess.

Or you can just keep buying chaos everything, and not play them. Just sit alone in your room for years, painting and detailing, and detailing some more. Then keep doing that for years until you own upwards of 10000 points of chaos. Keep shining their swords and sharpening their knives. Then some day, some wonderful day, when a new book comes out that will realize your armies' potential, come out from hiding. Everyone will have thought you had left warhammer 40k for good, but no, you had been training, preparing, and brooding for this moment. Return with such vengeance and hatred that you will not hold back, and you will destroy everything in your path. Like a true chaos crusade, wait for the right moment, then burst forth from the Eye of Terror and unleash your pain on the whole universe. And when they cry and complain that you are OP and that it's not fair. Reassure them that it's true. It isn't fair, but it's what they DESERVE. All of them, each and every one of them deserve to be obliterated into oblivion. And if they ask you to play with a fluffy army, tell them you will do so. But on game day bring the meanest nastiest, ugliest army you can. Give them no opportunity for victory, give them no opportunity for enjoyment. Your only goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. And when they cry, and they will cry, laugh at them, drink their salty tears, and bath in their sweet, sweet blood.

You just made my day, thank you for blessing the internet with this post. Though by similar logic Eldar are just getting revenge on CSM for 3e.

Chaos isn't in such a bad spot anymore. Traitor's Hate literally changed the game. I thought Khorne Daemonkin would be our saviour, but as it stands, Traitor's Hate has a great detachment with some really interesting options. Turn 1 Charges, 2++ rerollable inv saves, plenty of WC to cast with, access to solid support and reserves control, Chaos has many more tools than before.

Traitor's Hate redefines Chaos in a way that Angels of Death really didn't. Traitor's Hate makes some wargear that was completely useless, now very useful, Hand of Darkness, Crucible of Lies, Murder Sword, just to name a few. The only way to find out is to open your mind and explore what used to be, and compare it to what is.

Chaos no longer is bottom tier with Orks, that's reserved for the Greenskins alone, unfortunately. Traitor's Hate Chaos is a contender.