Scatterlaser vs Assault Cannon

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**AnomanderRake**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All at BS4, of course

Obviously. BS3 is for Guardsmen and Tau that forgot to take Markerlights.

**Lord Kragan**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All at BS4, of course

Obviously. BS3 is for Guardsmen and Tau that forgot to take Markerlights.

Oh puhleeze, BS3 veterans? Where have you been playing guard this last years, under a rock?

**Vaktathi**

Lord Kragan wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All at BS4, of course

Obviously. BS3 is for Guardsmen and Tau that forgot to take Markerlights.

Oh puhleeze, BS3 veterans? Where have you been playing guard this last years, under a rock?

One of what, all of four BS4 units in the army? Vets, Stormies, HQ squads and Ratlings, and, ironically enough for the heavy weapons army, none of which get to run around sporting the heavy weapons count of the Eldar

**oldzoggy**

Martel732 wrote:
This is from another thread. Personally, I find the pricing on these two weapons absurd. The 12" range on the scatterlaser easily dominates the AP4 and rending on the assault cannon. The IoM can't even amass enough assault cannons to make the rending consistent and worthwhile anyway. Assault cannon... so bad.

Lol you know that even something as silly as rarely used as a multi melta would be brought to horrible op power levels on a eldar jetbike.
And that Scatter lasers would be next to useless as a heavy weapon option on ork boyz.
It isn't just the gun is the unit in its entirety that has to be considered.

**Martel732**

AnomanderRake wrote:
I've had to do the math on this for Martel twice now, and he still won't believe me.

Consider: To deal a wound you need to roll three dice. To-hit rolls are fairly standardized between assault cannons and scatter lasers, so we can discount those; to-wound rolls are similarly constant between the two weapons because both are Strength 6.

The difference comes down to their interaction with armour saves. A Scatter Laser has no AP value at all, an Assault Cannon is AP4 for most shots and AP2 for 1/6 of shots.

Against targets with an armour save (discounting cover for the moment) of 4+ half of all wounds dealt by a scatter laser are ignored. No wounds dealt by the assault cannon are ignored. The assualt cannon is dealing 2x as many wounds in this case.

Against targets with a better armour save Rending makes a much bigger difference than the "oooh, fishing for sixes, are we?" (/sarcastic posh voice) argument assumes. Best-case scenario for the scatter laser is a target with T4 or lower, so let's do the math on that case for a moment.

Each scatter laser hit has to pass a 2+ to wound roll and a 2+ save on the target, for an average of 5/36 (~0.14) unsaved wounds.

Each assault cannon hit that rolls a 2-5 to wound (2/3 of hits) has to pass a 2+ save, but hits that roll a 6 to wound (1/6) don't, so the average is 10/36 (~0.28) unsaved wounds.

The difference is more pronounced for higher-Toughness models, where 6s to wound form a higher percentage of the to-wound rolls.

An Assault Cannon is 1.5-2x as effective as a Scatter Laser against every target in the game (this is a slight exaggeration, it doesn't help much against vehicles with AV10-11). I don't know about you, but I'd take twice the firepower over 12" of range in almost every situation.

The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract.

It's not that I don't believe what you are writing, I just don't think it's the whole story.

Add cover back into the mix and you will see a very different story. This is why I think non-ignore cover AP4 is one of the most overcosted mechanics for the Imperium. 4+ save models sporting 5+++ cover basically make AP4 a complete waste of time. Cover also works against the rends, but it far less effective at simulating the original save. Given how most people like to build boards, you are almost never going to get that 1.5-2 X effectiveness. But yet, the Imperium loves their AP4! Even though it usually turns out that said AP 4 is plinging off 3+ or being nerfed by 5+++.

Then we get to psychology. I think the assault cannon encourages sketchy decisions because of the rending. The scatterlaser has a very defined role. A target can be drowned in S6 or it can't. But the assault cannon gives less disciplined players false hope in the form of rending hits! They just need to roll that "6" that never seems to come at the right time. And they get to pay 10 more points for said privilege of being encouraged to make bad decisions! What a deal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

oldzoggy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
This is from another thread. Personally, I find the pricing on these two weapons absurd. The 12" range on the scatterlaser easily dominates the AP4 and rending on the assault cannon. The IoM can't even amass enough assault cannons to make the rending consistent and worthwhile anyway. Assault cannon... so bad.

Lol you know that even something as silly as rarely used as a multi melta would be brought to horrible op power levels on a eldar jetbike.
And that Scatter lasers would be next to useless as a heavy weapon option on ork boyz.
It isn't just the gun is the unit in its entirety that has to be considered.

Scatterlasers are also boss on war walkers, WKs, and Eldar tanks. They're just a boss weapon because they don't care about cover and you can't get out of range.

**jreilly89**

For me, it's the availability and the platform that has the Scatter Laser that trumps the Assault Cannon. If I could take ACs on all my bikes, I would.

The closest thing we have is Land Speeders, and those are way more fragile.

**Martel732**

jreilly89 wrote:
For me, it's the availability and the platform that has the Scatter Laser that trumps the Assault Cannon. If I could take ACs on all my bikes, I would.

The closest thing we have is Land Speeders, and those are way more fragile.

This is obviously the primary problem. But I don't even get the price points on these weapons.

**Insectum7**

jreilly89 wrote:
For me, it's the availability and the platform that has the Scatter Laser that trumps the Assault Cannon. If I could take ACs on all my bikes, I would.

The closest thing we have is Land Speeders, and those are way more fragile.

For the Assault Cannon, true. But for platform we have Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters, which is a sort of interesting comparison. Attack Bikes have T5 and 2W, can fire their Bolters in addition to the Heavy Bolter, and have Grenades for CC.

**Martel732**

Heavy bolters are such awful weapons though.

**Galef**

Martel732 wrote:
Heavy bolters are such awful weapons though.

Agreed....except in Kill team where an HB is a decent choice

**Martel732**

And again, the common denominator here is the heavy bolter giving up STR and ROF in exchange for AP 4.

**jreilly89**

Insectum7 wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
For me, it's the availability and the platform that has the Scatter Laser that trumps the Assault Cannon. If I could take ACs on all my bikes, I would.

The closest thing we have is Land Speeders, and those are way more fragile.

For the Assault Cannon, true. But for platform we have Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters, which is a sort of interesting comparison. Attack Bikes have T5 and 2W, can fire their Bolters in addition to the Heavy Bolter, and have Grenades for CC.

Heavy Bolters are awful weapons though, worse than Assault Cannons and Scatter Lasers. Only the Imperial Fists rules make HB worth a damn

**AnomanderRake**

Martel732 wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
I've had to do the math on this for Martel twice now, and he still won't believe me.

Consider: To deal a wound you need to roll three dice. To-hit rolls are fairly standardized between assault cannons and scatter lasers, so we can discount those; to-wound rolls are similarly constant between the two weapons because both are Strength 6.

The difference comes down to their interaction with armour saves. A Scatter Laser has no AP value at all, an Assault Cannon is AP4 for most shots and AP2 for 1/6 of shots.

Against targets with an armour save (discounting cover for the moment) of 4+ half of all wounds dealt by a scatter laser are ignored. No wounds dealt by the assault cannon are ignored. The assualt cannon is dealing 2x as many wounds in this case.

Against targets with a better armour save Rending makes a much bigger difference than the "oooh, fishing for sixes, are we?" (/sarcastic posh voice) argument assumes. Best-case scenario for the scatter laser is a target with T4 or lower, so let's do the math on that case for a moment.

Each scatter laser hit has to pass a 2+ to wound roll and a 2+ save on the target, for an average of 5/36 (~0.14) unsaved wounds.

Each assault cannon hit that rolls a 2-5 to wound (2/3 of hits) has to pass a 2+ save, but hits that roll a 6 to wound (1/6) don't, so the average is 10/36 (~0.28) unsaved wounds.

The difference is more pronounced for higher-Toughness models, where 6s to wound form a higher percentage of the to-wound rolls.

An Assault Cannon is 1.5-2x as effective as a Scatter Laser against every target in the game (this is a slight exaggeration, it doesn't help much against vehicles with AV10-11). I don't know about you, but I'd take twice the firepower over 12" of range in almost every situation.

The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract.

It's not that I don't believe what you are writing, I just don't think it's the whole story.

Add cover back into the mix and you will see a very different story. This is why I think non-ignore cover AP4 is one of the most overcosted mechanics for the Imperium. 4+ save models sporting 5+++ cover basically make AP4 a complete waste of time. Cover also works against the rends, but it far less effective at simulating the original save. Given how most people like to build boards, you are almost never going to get that 1.5-2 X effectiveness. But yet, the Imperium loves their AP4! Even though it usually turns out that said AP 4 is plinging off 3+ or being nerfed by 5+++.

Then we get to psychology. I think the assault cannon encourages sketchy decisions because of the rending. The scatterlaser has a very defined role. A target can be drowned in S6 or it can't. But the assault cannon gives less disciplined players false hope in the form of rending hits! They just need to roll that "6" that never seems to come at the right time. And they get to pay 10 more points for said privilege of being encouraged to make bad decisions! What a deal.

If the target's armour save is their best save (i.e. outside of Daemons and shenanigansy buff-stacking lists) the Assault Cannon is still better, though the margin falls off some with better Invul/cover.

I'm not disagreeing that the assault cannon is overpriced by comparison, I'm trying to point out that it's better than the scatter laser leaving cost aside. I'd rather see the shuriken cannon/scatter laser get a base price of 15pts (so +5-10pts to the cost of all Craftworld vehicles, probably leave the Harlies as is since they're already dealing with overpriced tissue paper infantry) and get taken off the Windrider spammability plan, and the assault cannon stay at 20pts, so we don't have to go down to lighter heavy weapons and drop the heavy bolter to 5pts-ish. Given the relative effectiveness of the two weapons and the ranges I think making the assault cannon 4/3 the cost of the scatter laser is completely fair.

**Martel732**

Well making the scatterlaser 15 pts is certainly MORE fair.

The problem is that it dominates the assault cannon in some niches:

AV 10-12: Probably the most critical niche of the scatterlaser. AV 12 is particuarly troublesome because you are looking at a 10 pt upgrade stripping .166 hps per hit offthe side on a 400-pt IK. Or the front of a dreadnought. Assault cannon is strictly inferior because of range, and the rends mean nothing.

MCs with 3+ armor: The scatterlaser will almost assuredly cause more damage over the course of a game because of range. Both weapons wound on 4+, and the assault cannon is only bypassing armor on a "6", but that is partially foiled by MCs still having "toe in cover" syndrome.

Models with grav cannons: I think this is obvious, but a non-trivial niche, given that being within 24" of a grav cannon is often suicide.

Niches good for the assault cannon:

AV 13-14: Not a good niche, because of the unpopularity of armor due to STR D and haywire. And in the case of the LR, self-immobilization.

2+ armor MCs: Yeah, the assault cannon is a lot better here. But still not rolling enough rends to get the job done. Bottom line to me is that both weapons actually suck vs 2+ armor MCs. You know your model is 100% badass if you can make scatterlasers suck.

4+ armor dudes in the open: Maybe you can force Wulfen into the open. And hard boyz? Maybe? Firewarriors are gonna have cover. Carapace IG guys? I don't know.

**Insectum7**

jreilly89 wrote:

Heavy Bolters are awful weapons though, worse than Assault Cannons and Scatter Lasers. Only the Imperial Fists rules make HB worth a damn

My point was less about the weapon and more about the platform, Attack Bikes are outwardly more similar to Scatbikes than a Land Speeder is, since they're squadrons of non AV units that are fast and can all take heavy weapons. You get two Attack Bikes for three Scat Bikes. Scat Bikes are obviously better at long range, the Attack Bikes improve the closer they are to the enemy, and are tougher.

A Single Land Speeder can get two Heavy Bolters, which is ok. I've had success with a squadron of three because then they're putting out 18 shots. If you could spam Heavy Bolters easier you'd see them more. If you played the full Battle Company you could get 12 twin-linked Heavy Bolters for free, and I'd argue that you could lose some friends with that. 36 Shots, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds against T4.

The other comparison would be to normal Bike Squads, where you get the squad of three like Scat Bikes, and then upgrade two with Grav.

Martel732 wrote:

AV 10-12: Probably the most critical niche of the scatterlaser. AV 12 is particuarly troublesome because you are looking at a 10 pt upgrade stripping .166 hps per hit offthe side on a 400-pt IK. Or the front of a dreadnought. Assault cannon is strictly inferior because of range, and the rends mean nothing.

Rends mean a Penetrating hit against AV 12, which is far from nothing.

**Exergy**

zerosignal wrote:
This again? Sigh.

Scatbikes are broken, who knew.

People knew they would be broken before the codex was even released.

**Galef**

Exergy wrote:
zerosignal wrote:
This again? Sigh.

Scatbikes are broken, who knew.

People knew they would be broken before the codex was even released.

Same with the WK, thanks White Dwarf!

**jreilly89**

Insectum7 wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:

Heavy Bolters are awful weapons though, worse than Assault Cannons and Scatter Lasers. Only the Imperial Fists rules make HB worth a damn

My point was less about the weapon and more about the platform, Attack Bikes are outwardly more similar to Scatbikes than a Land Speeder is, since they're squadrons of non AV units that are fast and can all take heavy weapons. You get two Attack Bikes for three Scat Bikes. Scat Bikes are obviously better at long range, the Attack Bikes improve the closer they are to the enemy, and are tougher.

A Single Land Speeder can get two Heavy Bolters, which is ok. I've had success with a squadron of three because then they're putting out 18 shots. If you could spam Heavy Bolters easier you'd see them more. If you played the full Battle Company you could get 12 twin-linked Heavy Bolters for free, and I'd argue that you could lose some friends with that. 36 Shots, 32 hits, 21.3 wounds against T4.

The other comparison would be to normal Bike Squads, where you get the squad of three like Scat Bikes, and then upgrade two with Grav.

Debatable. Even if I could spam Heavy Bolters, I'd take Assault Cannons over them. HB are too many points for S5 AP4, ACs at least give a chance to Rend and have a better S.

Besides, taking two HBs on a LandSpeeder is a waste when you can take the Typhoon missile launcher. That will put out much more hurt on a target than a HB.

Martel732 wrote:

AV 10-12: Probably the most critical niche of the scatterlaser. AV 12 is particuarly troublesome because you are looking at a 10 pt upgrade stripping .166 hps per hit offthe side on a 400-pt IK. Or the front of a dreadnought. Assault cannon is strictly inferior because of range, and the rends mean nothing.

Rends mean a Penetrating hit against AV 12, which is far from nothing.

That Penetrating hit is unlikely to do anything important. Besides, you have to roll a 6 to Pen it. Much more likely to move behind the Dread and just glance it to death.

**Einachiel**

Sicaran for the win!

Spam a few with some techmarine, add one part lemon juice, one part club soda to eldar tears and enjoy.

Down goes the amazing platform supporting the scatterlaser...

Back to the core subject:

I'm not a big fan of assault cannons; they replace better armement in most case (still good on termi but not on dread IMO)

Blood angel spamming assault cannon on baal preds could be very fun and cancelling the range issue.

Otherwise the range of the assault cannon is a problem vs scatterlasers, the point cost difference isn't so bad...

**ERJAK**

AnomanderRake wrote:
I've had to do the math on this for Martel twice now, and he still won't believe me.

Consider: To deal a wound you need to roll three dice. To-hit rolls are fairly standardized between assault cannons and scatter lasers, so we can discount those; to-wound rolls are similarly constant between the two weapons because both are Strength 6.

The difference comes down to their interaction with armour saves. A Scatter Laser has no AP value at all, an Assault Cannon is AP4 for most shots and AP2 for 1/6 of shots.

Against targets with an armour save (discounting cover for the moment) of 4+ half of all wounds dealt by a scatter laser are ignored. No wounds dealt by the assault cannon are ignored. The assualt cannon is dealing 2x as many wounds in this case.

Against targets with a better armour save Rending makes a much bigger difference than the "oooh, fishing for sixes, are we?" (/sarcastic posh voice) argument assumes. Best-case scenario for the scatter laser is a target with T4 or lower, so let's do the math on that case for a moment.

Each scatter laser hit has to pass a 2+ to wound roll and a 2+ save on the target, for an average of 5/36 (~0.14) unsaved wounds.

Each assault cannon hit that rolls a 2-5 to wound (2/3 of hits) has to pass a 2+ save, but hits that roll a 6 to wound (1/6) don't, so the average is 10/36 (~0.28) unsaved wounds.

The difference is more pronounced for higher-Toughness models, where 6s to wound form a higher percentage of the to-wound rolls.

An Assault Cannon is 1.5-2x as effective as a Scatter Laser against every target in the game (this is a slight exaggeration, it doesn't help much against vehicles with AV10-11). I don't know about you, but I'd take twice the firepower over 12" of range in almost every situation.

The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract.

All that math is nice but you're leaving out the most important part, how much does it COST. All of these numbers are pointless (pun) without a per point ratio.

**Insectum7**

jreilly89 wrote:

Debatable. Even if I could spam Heavy Bolters, I'd take Assault Cannons over them. HB are too many points for S5 AP4, ACs at least give a chance to Rend and have a better S.

Besides, taking two HBs on a LandSpeeder is a waste when you can take the Typhoon missile launcher. That will put out much more hurt on a target than a HB.

Obviously Assault Cannons are better than Heavy Bolters. But are they worth 20 points more? In the example of 12 free Razorbacks, that's 12 free Heavy Bolters, vs. 240 points to upgrade them all to Assault Cannons. If I'm building a Battle Company list I don't have too many points to spare.

The Typhoon Missile Launcher is also 20 points more than the dual HB version. It's usually not worth it for me.

Doesn't matter though. The point is (and a lot of people have also made it) that if you make something easily spammable, it changes the balance dynamic.

Martel732 wrote:

AV 10-12: Probably the most critical niche of the scatterlaser. AV 12 is particuarly troublesome because you are looking at a 10 pt upgrade stripping .166 hps per hit offthe side on a 400-pt IK. Or the front of a dreadnought. Assault cannon is strictly inferior because of range, and the rends mean nothing.

Rends mean a Penetrating hit against AV 12, which is far from nothing.

That Penetrating hit is unlikely to do anything important. Besides, you have to roll a 6 to Pen it. Much more likely to move behind the Dread and just glance it to death.

The worst result of a Pen is that a vehicle can't shoot back at you without needing 6's to hit, and can't fire any Blast weapons. If you think that's not important I just can't agree with you.

**SemperMortis**

AnomanderRake wrote:
I've had to do the math on this for Martel twice now, and he still won't believe me.

Consider: To deal a wound you need to roll three dice. To-hit rolls are fairly standardized between assault cannons and scatter lasers, so we can discount those; to-wound rolls are similarly constant between the two weapons because both are Strength 6.

The difference comes down to their interaction with armour saves. A Scatter Laser has no AP value at all, an Assault Cannon is AP4 for most shots and AP2 for 1/6 of shots.

Against targets with an armour save (discounting cover for the moment) of 4+ half of all wounds dealt by a scatter laser are ignored. No wounds dealt by the assault cannon are ignored. The assualt cannon is dealing 2x as many wounds in this case.

Against targets with a better armour save Rending makes a much bigger difference than the "oooh, fishing for sixes, are we?" (/sarcastic posh voice) argument assumes. Best-case scenario for the scatter laser is a target with T4 or lower, so let's do the math on that case for a moment.

Each scatter laser hit has to pass a 2+ to wound roll and a 2+ save on the target, for an average of 5/36 (~0.14) unsaved wounds.

Each assault cannon hit that rolls a 2-5 to wound (2/3 of hits) has to pass a 2+ save, but hits that roll a 6 to wound (1/6) don't, so the average is 10/36 (~0.28) unsaved wounds.

The difference is more pronounced for higher-Toughness models, where 6s to wound form a higher percentage of the to-wound rolls.

An Assault Cannon is 1.5-2x as effective as a Scatter Laser against every target in the game (this is a slight exaggeration, it doesn't help much against vehicles with AV10-11). I don't know about you, but I'd take twice the firepower over 12" of range in almost every situation.

The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract.

And now DOUBLE the amount of Scatter laser shots because a Scat laser is 10pts and an AC is 20

. So lets take this a step further. A scat bike is 27pts a model, which is the cheapest you can get I believe. For SMs the cheapest you can buy an AC for is 55pts I believe (Terminator with AC OR a Landspeeder Storm)

So for every AC a SM player can take an eldar player can take a bit more then 2 Scat bikes. SO keep that in mind.

Against a SM the Scatbikes will get 1 full turn of shooting BEFORE the ACs are even in range, why? Because a Scat bike can move and shoot just like the storm can but its weapon is a full 12in longer range.

So Turn 1 2 Scat bikes will dish out 8 shots, 6 hits and 5 wounds. Against 3+ armor that equals about 1.66 unsaved wounds.
Turn 1 for the AC....nothing, still moving to get in position.

Turn 2? Same thing with the Scat bike except they probably ran backwards 12 inches to stay at that maximum range and minimize the chance of taking return fire...something they are rather good at. So there goes another 1.66 unsaved wounds

Turn 2 for AC? 4 shots, 3 hits 3 wound (more then likely) and 1 unsaved wound.

So after 2 Turns the AC did 1 wound compared to a bit over 3 for the Scat bikes.

Now don't get me wrong a lot of this has to do with platforms but the bigger part is the RANGE and the PRICE. Considering its such a spammable weapon and considering the range and Strength of it, the Scat laser should be at least 15ppm and the AC should be reduced to a 10pt upgrade because realistically it is just so crappy with its 24in range.

**sfshilo**

Why not autocannon?

**AnomanderRake**

SemperMortis wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
...The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract...

...Now don't get me wrong a lot of this has to do with platforms but the bigger part is the RANGE and the PRICE. Considering its such a spammable weapon and considering the range and Strength of it, the Scat laser should be at least 15ppm and the AC should be reduced to a 10pt upgrade because realistically it is just so crappy with its 24in range.

Central point is bolded for emphasis.

**SemperMortis**

AnomanderRake wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
...The fundamental issue is spammability and ease of access, not the power of the weapon in abstract...

...Now don't get me wrong a lot of this has to do with platforms but the bigger part is the RANGE and the PRICE. Considering its such a spammable weapon and considering the range and Strength of it, the Scat laser should be at least 15ppm and the AC should be reduced to a 10pt upgrade because realistically it is just so crappy with its 24in range.

Central point is bolded for emphasis.

Ease of access = Price in your mind then

Scat laser is just too cheap for what it brings to the table. Wind riders are to cheap for what they bring to the table as well. A Dire Avenger is 13pts a model, giving that same Dire Avenger a Jetbike apparently costs 4pts. That 4 pts gives that same Dire Avenger model a better armor save, TLs his weapon, Gives him a massive boost to his movement phase and gives him access to heavy weapons (Scat laser).

When you upgrade an Ork boy to a Warbiker his points costs goes from 6pts a model to 18pts. Now don't get me wrong there is a corresponding boost to his abilities. 6+ armor to 4+, Slugga to a TL dakkagun. But why does it cost literally 3 times the points cost to get a bike for an ork then it does for an Eldar Dire Avenger? If it cost as much for an Eldar player as it does for an Ork player those Jetbikes would cost something around 39pts before upgrades.

It boils down to how GW has criminally undercosted most of the Eldar Codex.

**DarknessEternal**

Blood Angels Legion gets a Marine with an Assault Cannon for 20 points. Up to 10 in a squad.

**Lord Kragan**

Vaktathi wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All at BS4, of course

Obviously. BS3 is for Guardsmen and Tau that forgot to take Markerlights.

Oh puhleeze, BS3 veterans? Where have you been playing guard this last years, under a rock?
One of what, all of four BS4 units in the army? Vets, Stormies, HQ squads and Ratlings, and, ironically enough for the heavy weapons army, none of which get to run around sporting the heavy weapons count of the Eldar

One of four units that forms the core of most guard armies. And BS is not THAT necessary once you account the weapons that matter are blasts or have twinliked (or both), or are you going to tell me BS3 has made your wyverns useless? Also, pask is BS4 with PE, you left that one.

**Insectum7**

SemperMortis wrote:

Scat laser is just too cheap for what it brings to the table. Wind riders are to cheap for what they bring to the table as well. A Dire Avenger is 13pts a model, giving that same Dire Avenger a Jetbike apparently costs 4pts. That 4 pts gives that same Dire Avenger model a better armor save, TLs his weapon, Gives him a massive boost to his movement phase and gives him access to heavy weapons (Scat laser).

Not Dire Avenger, but Guardian. Guardians are 9 points, making the increase to bike 8 points. It's about two Guardians on foot or one Guardan on Jetbike. 3 Guardians for a Scatbike. Avenger Catapult is 18", Jetbike and Guardian Catapult is 12" range.

**Lord Kragan**

Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

Scat laser is just too cheap for what it brings to the table. Wind riders are to cheap for what they bring to the table as well. A Dire Avenger is 13pts a model, giving that same Dire Avenger a Jetbike apparently costs 4pts. That 4 pts gives that same Dire Avenger model a better armor save, TLs his weapon, Gives him a massive boost to his movement phase and gives him access to heavy weapons (Scat laser).

Not Dire Avenger, but Guardian. Guardians are 9 points, making the increase to bike 8 points. It's about two Guardians on foot or one Guardan on Jetbike. 3 Guardians for a Scatbike. Avenger Catapult is 18", Jetbike and Guardian Catapult is 12" range.

It's sempermortis, he always speaks without actually knowing stuff properly.

**jreilly89**

Insectum7 wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:

Debatable. Even if I could spam Heavy Bolters, I'd take Assault Cannons over them. HB are too many points for S5 AP4, ACs at least give a chance to Rend and have a better S.

Besides, taking two HBs on a LandSpeeder is a waste when you can take the Typhoon missile launcher. That will put out much more hurt on a target than a HB.

Obviously Assault Cannons are better than Heavy Bolters. But are they worth 20 points more? In the example of 12 free Razorbacks, that's 12 free Heavy Bolters, vs. 240 points to upgrade them all to Assault Cannons. If I'm building a Battle Company list I don't have too many points to spare.

The Typhoon Missile Launcher is also 20 points more than the dual HB version. It's usually not worth it for me.
Doesn't matter though. The point is (and a lot of people have also made it) that if you make something easily spammable, it changes the balance dynamic.

Well anything is good if you spam it enough, look at bolters with Imperial Fists tactics. But that's not what we were discussing, we were discussing the Assault Cannon vs. the Heavy Bolter. Besides, platform is still relevant. I'd never take Assault Cannons on a Razorback, too slow and too fragile.

Martel732 wrote:

AV 10-12: Probably the most critical niche of the scatterlaser. AV 12 is particuarly troublesome because you are looking at a 10 pt upgrade stripping .166 hps per hit offthe side on a 400-pt IK. Or the front of a dreadnought. Assault cannon is strictly inferior because of range, and the rends mean nothing.

Rends mean a Penetrating hit against AV 12, which is far from nothing.

That Penetrating hit is unlikely to do anything important. Besides, you have to roll a 6 to Pen it. Much more likely to move behind the Dread and just glance it to death.

The worst result of a Pen is that a vehicle can't shoot back at you without needing 6's to hit, and can't fire any Blast weapons. If you think that's not important I just can't agree with you.

Okay, assuming it's a Dreadnought, it just runs up and powerfists you. Assuming it's a Rhino, it flats out and goes somewhere else. Being shaken isn't all that important when you can glance vehicles to death.