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@Skink: i'm not sure why you think that , "If Space Marines are the only thing that make you happy, that's a limitation you've made for yourself.", or why you would find that laughable (unless i misconstrued the Orcmoticon)...
did you construct your preferences, or are they just a natural part of your psychology???

Space Marines are the thing that i enjoy painting the most, not the only thing that makes me happy...
as i've said many times before, i buy a wide variety of models, but my preference is to bring the stories of the Space Marines to life in miniature...
i don't see that as a limitation at all, but rather a pleasure...

in the last year, i have purchased minis from Infinity, Warmachine/Hordes, Guildball, Knight Models, and Nuts Planet, as well as GW...
is that cosmopolitan enough for you???
still, at the end of the day, in what little personal painting time that i can fit in for myself, the majority of my work has gone into painting GW minis, because that is the aesthetic that i enjoy the most...

painting French Agincourt Infantry would not bring me any pleasure, so they are not worth spending my money on, regardless of the fact that they are a good deal...
my preference is for painting things that could not possibly exist, rather than painting things that actually did...

cheers
jah

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

"Hours spent per dollar is a poor measure of value."
i completely diasgree, Skink...
surely the amount of enjoyment that you get from a kit is the best measure of value...
what is the point of buying something cheap, if you are not going to enjoy it???
i would much rather spend more money, knowing that i am going to get many hours of enjoyment out of that purchase, rather than get a cheap substitute that is not going to make me happy...

No, you don't disagree with me, you just misconstrued what I meant, as evidenced by your supporting argument reinforcing what I said that hours spent per dollar is a poor measure of value.... you clearly DON'T just value hours spent poor dollar, you also care how much "fun" you're having and how much you value that specific type of fun.

You don't go out and buy which ever model is going to give you the most hours modelling time with no consideration for anything else because that would be insane.

I still don't think you've made your point clear here, Skink and your strawmanning of JAH's point isn't helping. Enjoyment of a model doesn't start and stop with assembly and painting, nor do I think you can partition elements of enjoyment (fun, utility, aesthetic value, emotional significance, etc.). Those elements combine to create a person's enjoyment with a model and that enjoyment continues whether the model is on display or used in games. The only time the enjoyment stops is when the person no longer connects with whatever it was about the model that caused them to enjoy it.

Hours spent per dollar is a good measure of value. In fact, it is often a metric used for "valuing" video games, movies, and many other forms of entertainment. So why not with miniatures? WIth many forms of entertainment the content itself is fleeting. I can spend money on a nice meal, and enjoy it for a few hours, and if I am lucky enjoy the memory for a few years. The value of the meal is limited by the temporal nature of the meal and my recollection of it later.

A model that I painted, or that I commissioned someone to paint, can bring me a roughly consistent level of enjoyment for years. As long as I continue appreciating that model, be it as a piece of art or as a gaming element, it is providing value for me. The awesome plate of mushroom risotto that I had two weeks ago is already on its way to the sea, and while my taste buds might prickle a bit at the thought of it now, I am no where close to experiencing the enjoyment of that meal as it was on the night I ate it so its value has already diminished and will continue to do so until the meal is a forgotten memory.

The Eldar Revenant titan that I commissioned a few years ago brings a smile to my face every time I pass it in my hall. That bastard keeps on "paying" in terms of its value. Way more so than my long gone risotto.

So, hours spent per dollar is a great measure of value.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: if you think that your analogy is correct, then it must be quite a while since you bought a GW kit...
they are not even close to your Mercedes/Yugo comparison...
actually, they are engineered with such precision these days, that you are getting Mercedes quality for Mercedes prices....

i am working on the new Space Wolves character from the Burning of Prospero box, and the small chains that hold his boltgun over his shoulder actually have spaces between the tiny links that are so clean, it even surprised me...
his detail is so crisp, all the way down to his long canine teeth...

now, if you think Mercedes is too expensive, and would rather purchase a Ford, that's fair enough, but the quality of GW's current designs are far from a Yugo...

funny you should mention Forge World, because i feel the opposite about their quality of resin casting versus Citadel plastics...
FW is usually a nightmare to prep in comparison, and i've been put off by poor casting quite a few times...
i would much rather work with HIPS, any day of the week...
that is one of the reasons that the two Horus Heresy box sets have been a Godsend...
the sculpts are perfectly cast, go together like a dream, and require the minimum amount of prep...

as for being cheap plastic models, remember that they are not cheap once the mold is created, but rather once it is paid off...
also, you are not simply paying for the cost of model and molds, but also all the designers' work...
the money spent on products also goes to cover the entirety of a company's overhead...

if you are not happy with a price, that is understandable, but at least inspect a current model in hand before you comment on the quality of the product

cheers
jah

They are a lot closer to a Yugo than a Porsche - there are model kits out there with much better complexity, detail, and price.

As model kits... to be fair, closer to a Ford Asbo than a Yugo - but really, not top of the line model kits.

Dream Forge comes a lot closer - and is less expensive into the bargain.

As for buying - I will admit, I have had no urge to buy a GW kit for the past four years, aside from a passing fancy for the Knight.

I cannot help but feel that they are not worth the price.

For you, they obviously are worth the price - but for me the breaking point was the pricing on the Witch Elves, whether you wanted them as elites or not, you were paying for the elites - or, in my case, not\ paying the price, and not getting the models.

The Auld Grump

@TheAuldGrump: like i said, if you don't feel that GW models are worth the price, i can respect that...
if you have not worked with any of the plastic models that have been released since 2013, but want to call them Fords, i cannot respect that...

that's all i have to say...
my time is better spent enjoying myself working on some models

cheers
jah

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I still don't think you've made your point clear here, Skink and your strawmanning of JAH's point isn't helping.

Probably didn't make my point clear but I'm actually not disagreeing with jah's point (the part that I quoted) at all.

My point was *exactly* that you can't judge hours alone because there's too many other factors that contribute to the value of entertainment, I was arguing AGAINST the idea that you should buy the one that gives you the most hours simply because it gives you the most hours, if you enjoy painting Space Marines more than anything else, then it doesn't matter if other things give you more hours of modelling time if you're not enjoying it.

Enjoyment of a model doesn't start and stop with assembly and painting, nor do I think you can partition elements of enjoyment (fun, utility, aesthetic value, emotional significance, etc.). Those elements combine to create a person's enjoyment with a model and that enjoyment continues whether the model is on display or used in games. The only time the enjoyment stops is when the person no longer connects with whatever it was about the model that caused them to enjoy it.

I totally agree.... I just think jah's opinion is excessively coloured by the fact he REALLY likes Space Marines.

I look around my room and I see a huge range of models from many different sources and I can't say I enjoy any one more than another. There'll be days where I prefer painting a Night Goblin, other days where I'll prefer painting a Sherman, other days where I'll prefer painting French infantry from Agincourt, other days where I'll prefer painting a 1/48 scale WW2 plane that will never be used in a wargame at all. Even though there's days I'll do one over the other I won't be painting a Sherman thinking "oh how I wish I was painting a Space Marine instead" But jah seems to really love his Space Marines and I guess it seems odd to me that someone who has been in the hobby for such a long time would narrow their tastes rather than broadening them.

Hours spent per dollar is a good measure of value....

.....So, hours spent per dollar is a great measure of value.

Ok so maybe I misspoke in my first statement... I should have said "Hours spent per dollar is not the only and certainly not the most important measure of value".

I think we've established that, no?

As I said in the post you quoted...

me wrote:You don't go out and buy which ever model is going to give you the most hours modelling time with no consideration for anything else because that would be insane.

Let me change the emphasis if it doesn't seem clear enough...

me wrote:You don't go out and buy which ever model is going to give you the most hours modelling time with no consideration for anything else because that would be insane.

@Skink: you could not be more wrong about me narrowing my tastes, rather than broadening them...
in the first 15 years of collecting miniatures, i only collected Citadel and Marauder miniatures...
in the last 15 years, i have been collecting, Rackham, Dark-Age, Privateer Press, I-Kore, Infinity, Knight Models, Ilyad, Darksword, Reaper, CMON, Soda Pop, Nuts Planet, Guildball, Crocodile Games, Gale Force 9, Hasslefree, Freebooter, Red Box Games, Studio McVey, and many more...

in the last year i have chosen to paint a Forge World Iron Warriors character, an AoS Megaboss, the new Ulric, a Tech-Priest Dominus, and a Steve Buddle Fantasy Football Goblin...
on my desk at the moment my personal projects are the PP Skarre bust, a plastic Tau Commander Coldstar, a Rackham Dwarf Aegis leader, The Fell-Hand, and a Fatal Personality Toxic Girl...

i am currently daydreaming about having time to paint all of my Genestealer Cult minis, Silver Tower box, Tau, Ad-Mech, and even the two Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle sets that My Way Miniatures and Kaha have made this year...

all that said, yeah, Space Marines are my favorite thing in the miniature hobby...
do you deride someone for saying that Orks are their favorite, or Tau, or even Tyranids???
having a favorite thing does not mean ignorance, nor limits...
it simply means that something gets you more jazzed than any other miniatures...

cheers
jah

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
LOL at the idea of perry plastics not being comparable due to being historic.

May as well come out and say that no other plastic models are comparable as they are not space marines.

I've bought plenty of Perry plastics to sci fi up or fantasize, and they don't compare because they are smaller, have less utility for conversions due to their design, and the poses they are designed to be assembled in are boring, making it difficult to make a satisfying mini out of them. The Carabiniers and other mounted Napoleonics have great details and are fairly easy to make exciting, but their infantry are just a complete waste of money for someone like me. Warlord games' plastics are all around terrible. WGF's plastics were actually great value, very good quality, and large enough to look decent on the same table as actual fantasy miniatures. They're pretty much gone now.

I have a hard time justifying most GW purchases, but not because of a lack of quality. Their prices are just too high to justify without a steeper than usual discount. Dreamforge, Malifaux, and Kingdome Death are almost as good in terms of quality, but their prices also make them "sometimes purchases". Mantic and Reaper Bones have lesser quality, but also have lesser prices, especially through the Kickstarters, which makes them easier to buy. $20 for 20 minis worth about $1 each to me is easier to justify than $50 for 5 great minis and some great bits. In terms of time spent on the hobby, I'll get more enjoyment out of assembling whatever I'm excited about, so GW's deep fluff and BL arm often tip the scales in that regard. And it helps that the latest GW releases are amazing quality plastics.

After my experiences with FW resin, I would rather buy finecast than forgeworld.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: like i said, if you don't feel that GW models are worth the price, i can respect that...
if you have not worked with any of the plastic models that have been released since 2013, but want to call them Fords, i cannot respect that...

that's all i have to say...
my time is better spent enjoying myself working on some models

cheers
jah

You are assuming that because I have not bought any GW models since choking on the Witch Elves that I have not painted any - and that is where you are running into the problem - I have painted for commission - and very much disliked the kits that I was hired to paint.

Overly large, overly fragile, and overly ornate - with detail gobbed on, rather than having an actual vision of where they had wanted to take the model - particular areas where blank space was filled with plastic rather than any attempt to shape it properly. It looked like crap. (A hint - the commission was for the Vampire Counts - sadly a number of offenders, not a single model.)

Which is why Yugo comes to mind, or maybe, if a Ford, then an Edsel.

A Ford is generally a more serviceable vehicle. Reaper makes a nice Ford. Mantic... maybe a Fiat? A Citreon?

The Auld Grump

@TheAuldGrump: there is nothing to assume...
you've made it quite clear that you have not worked on a post-Dark Elves kit...

the Vampire Counts are from 2011...
they are a bit older than the specific 2013 date that i sighted for when i feel that GW took their quality to a new level, such as the Dwarves release, or the new Tactical Squad...
the designers have gone a long way to get rid of the plastic bits where undercuts let them down in the past, through ingenious cutting of the models...

2015 and 2016's new releases have been incredibly well engineered...
have you handled the characters from Death Masque???
Jes Goodwin has redone his classic Eldrad in plastic, and done an amazing job...
The Burning of Prospero is chock full of well designed kits, with Arhiman being one of the slickest pieces of design i have ever seen in a HIPS wargaming model...
if you have handled a kit from the last two years, you would know that, even if you dislike the aesthetic...

i have bought a lot of Reaper models, and there is no way that i would put them on par with GW's recent offerings, especially comparing HIPS to Bones...
i would, however, put Dreamforge's infantry kits on par with GW's current infantry kit releases, like the Genestealer Cult or MkIV Marines...

i stand by my statement, Mercedes quality at Mercedes price, but i doubt we will ever agree on that

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: there is nothing to assume...
you've made it quite clear that you have not worked on a post-Dark Elves kit...

the Vampire Counts are from 2011...
they are a bit older than the specific 2013 date that i sighted for when i feel that GW took their quality to a new level, such as the Dwarves release, or the new Tactical Squad...
the designers have gone a long way to get rid of the plastic bits where undercuts let them down in the past, through ingenious cutting of the models...

2015 and 2016's new releases have been incredibly well engineered...
have you handled the characters from Death Masque???
Jes Goodwin has redone his classic Eldrad in plastic, and done an amazing job...
The Burning of Prospero is chock full of well designed kits, with Arhiman being one of the slickest pieces of design i have ever seen in a HIPS wargaming model...
if you have handled a kit from the last two years, you would know that, even if you dislike the aesthetic...

i have bought a lot of Reaper models, and there is no way that i would put them on par with GW's recent offerings, especially comparing HIPS to Bones...
i would, however, put Dreamforge's infantry kits on par with GW's current infantry kit releases, like the Genestealer Cult or MkIV Marines...

i stand by my statement, Mercedes quality at Mercedes price, but i doubt we will ever agree on that

cheers
jah

You mean the models in the boxes that were clearly labeled 'End Times'?

Those models?

Because those are the models that I am taiking about - though it could be matter of GW repackaging existing figures to go with the Next Big Thing.

And, again, you are making an assumption - what I have been making very clear is not that I have not worked on a GW model since the Witch Elves -it is that I have not bought any models since I looked at the Witch Elves. That I have not thought that they were worth the money - and in the last four years the only GW purchases that I have made are a container of flock and a bottle of liquid green stuff.

A very major difference - if you look around you will find me commenting on these very forums about working on miniatures from Island of Blood - and that I had been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the High Elves in that set, and how disappointed I was with the Skaven from that same set.

Painting both for commission.

Painting both for use in Kings of War, not Warhammer.

So, here are the models that I was talking about. These bastards -

And these -


Plus some character models that I am not going to go looking for. (Not Nagash - while I did not like the new Nagash, I will admit that it was an improvement on the old Nagash.)

Not my paint jobs, images taken from Eternal Hunt.

I pure hate those models - and the style that they are created in.

And in the interest of fairness - the High Elves in Island of Blood were a pure pleasure to work with - good detail, sensible poses, and a good price on the boxed game - even leaving out the disappointing Skaven

*EDIT Yugo is too kind - cheap dollar store toy is closer, in regards to those models.

The Auld Grump

I need to shop at your dollar store.

Those models aren't my favorite, but that's due to aesthetics more than technical competence. Outside of the Undead, Fyreslayer and Sylvaneth range, most of their recent minis are stunning. They may be too busy for you, but I prefer busy, especially when the models have that polished look compared to the old "characterful" models the Oldhammer players use.


Also, the prices for those undead are just ridiculous, even insulting. There's no getting around that.

@TheAuldGrump: thanks for finally getting specific, so i actually know what you are talking about...
i was trying not to make assumptions, but only had the vague info you posted in this thread to go by...

like i said, we are never going to agree on the validity of your analogy...
i really like those Spirit Hosts, especially
they are the best ghosts that GW have ever released, in my opinion, and are a very nice bit of engineering, to boot...

glad you enjoyed the High Elves from Island of Blood...
they really are some beautiful minis, and i'm not even a big fan of Elves...

cheers
jah

-

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: thanks for finally getting specific, so i actually know what you are talking about...
i was trying not to make assumptions, but only had the vague info you posted in this thread to go by...

like i said, we are never going to agree on the validity of your analogy...
i really like those Spirit Hosts, especially
they are the best ghosts that GW have ever released, in my opinion, and are a very nice bit of engineering, to boot...

glad you enjoyed the High Elves from Island of Blood...
they really are some beautiful minis, and i'm not even a big fan of Elves...

cheers
jah

To be fair - the Spirit Hosts annoyed me because they were almost good. Take what I wanted, then subtract 20%, then charge 200% - a combination that did not endear the models to me. Too many shortcuts were taken by the digital sculptor - in exactly the same manner that too many shortcuts were taken on the Skaven models in Island of Blood - they were lazy sculpts.

Those winged monstrosities, on the other hand were just awful on every level except fit of parts. (Both were excellent in that one regard - I am not talking about technical expertise when I complain about their current kits.)

It is also entirely possible that were are looking at them as two entirely different things - I am looking at them as toy soldiers used to play a game.

For transport to and from games, and for handling during games, they are very, very bad bad models - overly ornate and overly fragile.

They are toys - and GW should assume that they will be played with.

For me the high point of GW design was back when they were making models that could be posed as the person assembling them chose - I am not nearly as fond of single pose models, no matter how technically excellent their design might be.

I want to be able to take the bits and bobs from several sets and combine them into what I want, not a single pose model that is what the sculptor/CAD designer wanted.

So, rather than calling the current models 'Yugos', how about I call them 'badly designed toy soldiers that cost too much for what they are'?

More accurate, more pedantic - but also striking to the core of the problem - GW is making toy soldiers, but are charging for collectables. And, as toy soldier, they fall short in terms of utility.

The Auld Grump - collectables are seldom made from cheap plastic being turned out in a two part milled steel mold....

@TheAuldGrump: call 'em whatever you want, we are still going to disagree on your assessment
your impression is so far off on the other side of the spectrum from mine, it's like we must live on two completely different planets...

they are toys, and in my opinion, very well designed toys...
toys that i get to spend hour after hour working on to make them just right...
when people ask me what i do, i tell them that i get paid to play with toy soldiers, and couldn't be happier
GW's models give me the most joy, and earn me the best money...
i guess the people who spend hundreds of dollars to get one of my painted character models have not been informed that they are, in fact, not collectibles...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: call 'em whatever you want, we are still going to disagree on your assessment
your impression is so far off on the other side of the spectrum from mine, it's like we must live on two completely different planets...

they are toys, and in my opinion, very well designed toys...
toys that i get to spend hour after hour working on to make them just right...
when people ask me what i do, i tell them that i get paid to play with toy soldiers, and couldn't be happier
GW's models give me the most joy, and earn me the best money...
i guess the people who spend hundreds of dollars to get one of my painted character models have not been informed that they are, in fact, not collectibles...

cheers
jah

There I will disagree with you - once you have painted a miniature then it does become a collectable - the patrons are paying for the painting, not the canvas. (My good lady is a professional artist - she would bean me if I ever tried to claim that an artist is not worthy of the hire.)

I am unlikely to buy painted miniatures* - part of my enjoyment is in painting them, it is why I used to paint for commission (still do, but these days only for friends) - but I do not complain when a well painted miniatures is sold for a price commiserate with the effort and skill that went into painting it.

But, to stretch the analogy, GW is charging more than the canvas is worth. If somebody charged too much for canvas then I would buy my canvases elsewhere. When GW charges too much for cheap plastic toy soldiers, I buy my cheap plastic toy soldiers elsewhere. Mass produced plastic miniatures should not cost more than their weight in silver.

To continue - part of why I got so heated on the topic of Blue Table Painting was that what they were advertising they would produce for a given time and price was not what they were delivering, and in the process giving commission painting an undeserved black eye.

On a related note - I am sore tempted by the short reappearance of the Diaz Daemonettes - I am not claiming that all GW miniatures are being priced beyond their value - merely many of them.

The Auld Grump - but given that my good lady wife had our first child this past September, I am unlikely to give in to that temptation. Babies are expensive! Both in time and money. (Teething started this month.)

* A clarification - I have sometimes bought large prepainted miniatures, but with the intent of repainting the models.

@TheAuldGrump: again, i disagree...
collectors are very much paying for the canvas, in that they want a very specific miniature painted...
the whole point is that a miniature is a representation of a character from a painting or a story...
if a client wants Orks, Eldar are not going to do as a canvas to paint upon...

cut GW models out of commission painting, and see how much less money is on offer, and how many less clients there are looking for painted models...
people's interest in painted armies is overwhelmingly in favor of GW's miniatures...

i'm not going to argue over what miniatures should or shouldn't cost...
i'd like lower prices, too

congratulations on your first child

cheers
jah

HI folks.
I understand that art is subjective , so if you like a model enough you will pay the price the seller asks for it.

However, the last time I looked the kits GW plc sell only cost them 24% of the retail price to manufacture.
This cost includes everything apart from logistics and retail. It includes the cost of running GW HQ, all their overheads, and depreciation.

GW plc logistic costs make up appx 10% of their gross revenue.(Last figures I saw , which is about right AFAIK.)


This means without the chain of B&M stores GW plc costs would only amount to appx £40M.
Without the cost of the retail chain, appx £60M.GW plc could halve retail prices, and make larger profits from higher volumes of sales.

As only a tiny fraction of GW customers buy from GW stores.Why do all GW customers have to pay the price for these shops they never visit?

 jah-joshua wrote:

cut GW models out of commission painting, and see how much less money is on offer, and how many less clients there are looking for painted models...
people's interest in painted armies is overwhelmingly in favor of GW's miniatures...

Is that because people view GW as the best, or because GW is the biggest or GW fans are more likely to pay comission painters?

I get the impression comissions are fairly popular for mass battle historics (which is expensive because of the model count), but not so much for skirmish games (because they don't take as much time), whilst GW manages to be both expensive and high model count.

Lanrak wrote:
As only a tiny fraction of GW customers buy from GW stores.Why do all GW customers have to pay the price for these shops they never visit?

Actually, 41% of revenue comes from their retail stores. When you consider FW can only be bought through mail order, it would have to be higher than 41% if you only consider "citadel" products.

Unless I'm misreading (it's late and I'm tired, lol) they have the breakdown of profits/losses in their annual report, retail apparently lost 3.4M this year passed, but maybe some of that's caused by expansion because it only cost them 1.5M the year before.

So they couldn't really lower prices massively unless customers jump on the mail order band wagon. Even if customers switch over to independents after their own retail stores close, they only make, what, about 65% of retail price for a sale through an independent?

That's not to say they couldn't lower prices, but IMO the lowering would come in the form of better deals and more miniatures in boxes with the idea that the cost of manufacturing is low, so you might as well sell more for the same price in the hope of enticing people to spend more (or start spending again for all the players who have moved to other systems and newbies who are pushed in to other games because they're told GW is an overpriced mess).

GW products will (I assume) be costed at RRP from a GW store, whilst at trade for a 3rd party, so the stores may be 41% of revenue, but nearer 20% of volume.

Lanrak wrote:
HI folks.
I understand that art is subjective , so if you like a model enough you will pay the price the seller asks for it.

However, the last time I looked the kits GW plc sell only cost them 24% of the retail price to manufacture.
This cost includes everything apart from logistics and retail. It includes the cost of running GW HQ, all their overheads, and depreciation.

GW plc logistic costs make up appx 10% of their gross revenue.(Last figures I saw , which is about right AFAIK.)


This means without the chain of B&M stores GW plc costs would only amount to appx £40M.
Without the cost of the retail chain, appx £60M.GW plc could halve retail prices, and make larger profits from higher volumes of sales.

As only a tiny fraction of GW customers buy from GW stores.Why do all GW customers have to pay the price for these shops they never visit?

I think you're misunderstanding this topic:

The idea is to look at the whole cost of bringing a miniature from shop to ready and figure out how much of that was just the sticker price of the box at the store (online or not).

The reason I ask is because while I see many complaining about the prices of GW when in fact those prices are largely irrelevant compared to the time invested in those miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanrak wrote:
HI folks.
I understand that art is subjective , so if you like a model enough you will pay the price the seller asks for it.

However, the last time I looked the kits GW plc sell only cost them 24% of the retail price to manufacture.
This cost includes everything apart from logistics and retail. It includes the cost of running GW HQ, all their overheads, and depreciation.

I don't think that can make any sense if you don't include logistics in there.

And in a way, it still doesn't make sense if you don't include retail either.

GW couldn't be that big without physical presence.

"The reason I ask is because while I see many complaining about the prices of GW when in fact those prices are largely irrelevant compared to the time invested in those miniatures."

I spend more time working on napoleonics models than I ever did with a GW model kit. I still consider GW models to be vastly overpriced.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
"The reason I ask is because while I see many complaining about the prices of GW when in fact those prices are largely irrelevant compared to the time invested in those miniatures."

I spend more time working on napoleonics models than I ever did with a GW model kit. I still consider GW models to be vastly overpriced.

How much time do you spend on a $50 GW kit on average ?

Herzlos wrote:
GW products will (I assume) be costed at RRP from a GW store, whilst at trade for a 3rd party, so the stores may be 41% of revenue, but nearer 20% of volume.

Yeah, that's why I said revenue I believe GW charges around 60% of RRP to trade accounts, by my calcs that puts them at roughly 30% of product shifted through the stores. Still not a "tiny fraction" as far as I can see either way, and certainly not a tiny fraction of overall revenue nor are retail stores making such a huge loss that you could make significant reductions in RRP unless you assume all the retail store buyers flip straight over to the web store.

morgoth wrote:
The reason I ask is because while I see many complaining about the prices of GW when in fact those prices are largely irrelevant compared to the time invested in those miniatures.

I find GW prices unreasonable because, to me, they don't provide anything over their vast competition, for what is usually a much higher price. I'm currently working on some Frostgrave Barbarians, which were £20 for 20, and are great sculpts with plenty of options.

I specifically didn't say I complain about GW prices, because largely I don't; I just buy other stuff.

I don't buy into this view that they are good value compared to the cost of getting them on the table - maybe it'd make sense if I was buying a complete model from a commission painter, but I buy NIB and enjoy painting them myself. Whilst there's some crap on the market, I don't get 3+ times the enjoyment from a GW mini than I would from, say, a Warlord or Frostgrave mini.


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morgoth wrote:
How much time do you spend on a $50 GW kit on average ?

That's a 5-man squad of fancy marines? Maybe a couple of evenings tinkering. Easily 2 weeks of evenings if I bought something from the Perrys.

morgoth wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
"The reason I ask is because while I see many complaining about the prices of GW when in fact those prices are largely irrelevant compared to the time invested in those miniatures."

I spend more time working on napoleonics models than I ever did with a GW model kit. I still consider GW models to be vastly overpriced.

How much time do you spend on a $50 GW kit on average ?

Back in the day, maybe 5-6 hours to build and paint a unit of ten costing maybe £20. My napoleonics currently takes me about 9-10 hours to get through 12 and theres 36 in a box that costs £20. That's spread across an hour an evening across a working week. So a box of 10 GW would be a week of work, a box of 36 perry is gonna be an easy month of work. For the same price.

Not bought any GW for a good 5-6 years now as I found it lacking in value and too ££££

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: again, i disagree...
collectors are very much paying for the canvas, in that they want a very specific miniature painted...
the whole point is that a miniature is a representation of a character from a painting or a story...
if a client wants Orks, Eldar are not going to do as a canvas to paint upon...

cut GW models out of commission painting, and see how much less money is on offer, and how many less clients there are looking for painted models...
people's interest in painted armies is overwhelmingly in favor of GW's miniatures...

i'm not going to argue over what miniatures should or shouldn't cost...
i'd like lower prices, too

congratulations on your first child

cheers
jah

Actually, the biggest commission that I ever had was for Mantic figures - 300 zombies.... (And associated characters, but... 300 zombies!)

But, they were for use in both WHFB and KoW - a zed is a zed is zed.

I cheated, and used them in a Pathfinder game before sending them off, because... 300 zombies!

The Auld Grump