Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's RANDOM wound allocation. You'll first have to roll d100 to see which boy gets killed and than count up to it.

If me picking some boys from the back isn't random I just don't know what is. lol.
I'll just take my chances with the Fear tests ect.

Relics are like Special Characters: They could be an interesting way add unique rules or different bends to preexisting rules, or a fancy version of something that you might be willing to spurge on if you have the extra points. But because the normal versions are so bland and/or weak that they're the only real way to add flavor to the army, or there's a massive gaping weakness that a this relic/special character will allow you to ignore, so you have to take it otherwise your entire army suffers.

I wouldn't want to seem them gone, but I would like more standard options to be more useful so that taking one is more a trade rather than a flat, no brainer upgrade

I'd like to see the following:

All relic lists be somewhat similar with a few differences,

One or two unique "named" melee weapons
One Defensive piece of wargear (armor, shield, etc)
Two unique pieces of wargear (Lukky Stikk for Orks, Crown Angelic for Blood Angels) that are built with an eye toward the army and flavored as such.
One unique ranged "named" weapon of some stripe, be it a pistol or a full size gun.

I'm of the opinion a little homogenization would help here, so you don't get one (or sometimes two) pieces of wargear that only get taken above all others.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 koooaei wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

Riptides are MC - all MC cause fear. All daemons - even brimstones with t1 can frighten orks. A lot of formations give free fear and lower ld significantly. Harleuins can. For example, every time you'll get shot with a death jester, you'll have to pass ld at -2.

And you didn't get my point about mob rule. It's RANDOM wound allocation. You'll first have to roll d100 to see which boy gets killed and than count up to it.

While I agree with you that you'd almost always take the big bosspole or Grotsnik for a Green Tide, the Green Tide Formation actually tells you that you can choose which models to remove when rolling for results from Breakin Eads and Squabble. So that's not an issue.

"Relikz? Ow many teef are dey worf?"

"'an I git a 'igga choppa fir it?"

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'd like to see the following:

All relic lists be somewhat similar with a few differences,

One or two unique "named" melee weapons
One Defensive piece of wargear (armor, shield, etc)
Two unique pieces of wargear (Lukky Stikk for Orks, Crown Angelic for Blood Angels) that are built with an eye toward the army and flavored as such.
One unique ranged "named" weapon of some stripe, be it a pistol or a full size gun.

I'm of the opinion a little homogenization would help here, so you don't get one (or sometimes two) pieces of wargear that only get taken above all others.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

That's kind of already the case though, isn't it? It's not codified as a rule, but almost every modern set of relics follows this: 1-2 defensive items, 1 gun, 1-2 melee weapons, 1-2 unique specialist gear - If two, then usually one Force/Unit Multiplier and one Character Multiplier.

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

Riptides are MC - all MC cause fear. All daemons - even brimstones with t1 can frighten orks. A lot of formations give free fear and lower ld significantly. Harleuins can. For example, every time you'll get shot with a death jester, you'll have to pass ld at -2.

And you didn't get my point about mob rule. It's RANDOM wound allocation. You'll first have to roll d100 to see which boy gets killed and than count up to it.

While I agree with you that you'd almost always take the big bosspole or Grotsnik for a Green Tide, the Green Tide Formation actually tells you that you can choose which models to remove when rolling for results from Breakin Eads and Squabble. So that's not an issue.

Well, at least this gets out of the way. But it's still an auto include if you want to avoid fear tests and suffering extra 3+d3 s4 hits every phase for no apparent reason.

 koooaei wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
Ok, I can see the fear tests as an issue. the wounds don't matter to me. I take well over 100 boys in my green tide.
No one I play regularly has anything that causes fear. ..Do riptides cause fear?

Riptides are MC - all MC cause fear. All daemons - even brimstones with t1 can frighten orks. A lot of formations give free fear and lower ld significantly. Harleuins can. For example, every time you'll get shot with a death jester, you'll have to pass ld at -2.

And you didn't get my point about mob rule. It's RANDOM wound allocation. You'll first have to roll d100 to see which boy gets killed and than count up to it.

While I agree with you that you'd almost always take the big bosspole or Grotsnik for a Green Tide, the Green Tide Formation actually tells you that you can choose which models to remove when rolling for results from Breakin Eads and Squabble. So that's not an issue.

Well, at least this gets out of the way. But it's still an auto include if you want to avoid fear tests and suffering extra 3+d3 s4 hits every phase for no apparent reason.

Not to mention that a single bad pinning check could be the hilarious end to your 700+ point unit.

You can't really fail the checks as ghaz mob rule is modified by being +2 to result and you'll always have >10 models and at least one nob. But you'll recieve 3+d3 s4 hits as a result. So, making your guyz fearless for 20 pts is simply cheaper than taking casualties from mob rule. Not even telling about fear protection.

Anywayz, we've moved away from topic. My point was to give an example of a relic that's only ever auto-include (and potentially only even fieldable) with just one formation. It's not worth it in most if not all other situations simply because the artifact requires you to take Ghaz detachment which comes with handicapping special rules and not adding much else - and is only ever used as source of formations and rarely as source of an overpriced megaforcefield to protect a forgeworld stompa.

You simply can't "adjust the points and call it a day". Thus i think that making artifacts universally useable should not be the main goal. What we can do, though, is take into consideration some potential abusive uses of the artifacts that make them so worth it and cut on that. It's a more realistic goal. For example, the white scar ignore cover artifact. It's really not worth it on anything short of ap2-3. But marines have easy access to grav cents. So, the most common way of running this relic is adding it to grav cents or grav bikes/comsquad/ap2 allies and in this case it's underpriced for what it does. When we make this relic more expensive - like 35-40 pts, it becomes a more significant investment but still worth it on those shooty ap2 dudes. It completely cuts off the option for this relic to be fielded anywhere else but makes it more fair in this extreme efficiency cases.

 Stormonu wrote:
Lots of times, the Relics cover ground where they address a weak point in the army, giving you a one-shot chance of plugging that hole. Problem is, everybody takes that "one".

And is it my imagination or there always **SIX** relics per book - if so, how has GW not yet moved this from a point cost to random roll?

In the end, IMNSHO Relics need to die like named characters.

Oh dead gods and fishes, please not more random rolls.

Oh, and tyranids get relics right? I mean, there is a section for them, bioartifacts. But I doubt they are ever used, except maybe the crown, and that is overpriced.

SM artifice armor annoys me far more. Same save as terminator armor but they can ride a bike, a rhino/razorback, or use a jump pack? Terminator armor is supposed to have to be massively thick to provide that level of protection.

Well, at least this gets out of the way. But it's still an auto include if you want to avoid fear tests and suffering extra 3+d3 s4 hits every phase for no apparent reason.

Your not saying this happens for failing a fear test are you? It doesn't.

I think one thing I would have liked with relics would have been for a list that was simply for the warlord. Which ever model I pick to be warlord.

I know people will likely decry yet another dice roll being added, but I'd prefer a Relics table.

You pays your points and you takes your chance. You might get The Emperor's Blue Suede Shoes (all units falling back with the character automatically rally, because he dances so well), you might get The Emperor's Personal Emperor Titan Which Has Warlord Titans For Legs.

Otherwise yeah, some are just autoinclude.

I don't think adding more would necessarily help either - you'd still have the excellent/useful/meh brackets.

 warhead01 wrote:

Well, at least this gets out of the way. But it's still an auto include if you want to avoid fear tests and suffering extra 3+d3 s4 hits every phase for no apparent reason.

Your not saying this happens for failing a fear test are you? It doesn't.

I think one thing I would have liked with relics would have been for a list that was simply for the warlord. Which ever model I pick to be warlord.

No, it happens only for morale tests which fear is not. But pining, 25% losses from shooting and loosing cc are.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know people will likely decry yet another dice roll being added, but I'd prefer a Relics table.

You pays your points and you takes your chance. You might get The Emperor's Blue Suede Shoes (all units falling back with the character automatically rally, because he dances so well), you might get The Emperor's Personal Emperor Titan Which Has Warlord Titans For Legs.

Otherwise yeah, some are just autoinclude.

I don't think adding more would necessarily help either - you'd still have the excellent/useful/meh brackets.

The problem is that it makes tactics impossible, in a game where one of the most common criticisms is that random rolling trumps tactics.

At least with Psykers, you can plan your usage and build around potential options. But Relics? Waaaay too much variance, and a good chance that any Relic will be redundant. You don't know for sure if you'll get the Melee Weapon, the Shield, the Armor, or the Buff, so you have to buy yourself a Melee Weapom, Armor, and Shield anyways - Suddenly, even if the relic options are marginally bettet, rolling them means you wasted a ton of points. The Buff is the only good roll. (Unless you get the relic offering rerolls to hit in melee, but it lands in your Chaplain.)

Love some of the Space Wolves Relics, although my feelings towards them has waxed and waned as different builds have become available, the codex limits the army to one though...
Bite of Fenris is Rubbish.
Armour of Russ is amazing
Black Death is a Rampage Axe
Fang Sword has s+1 ap3 and rending
Wulfen Stone is overcosted for what it does
Helm of Durfast was useless until Wyrdstorm Brotherhood

Armour of Stormwrack is expensive Terminator with IWND
Frostfury is a Helfrost gun...meh
Krackenbone sword is ap2 at initiative
Morkai's Claws are brutal. Expensive but BRUTAL.
Pelt of the balewolf is situational
Fellclaws Teeth are my favorite