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2014/01/24 10:38:11
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2014/01/24 18:15:55
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Let us preface all this by saying that Defiance Games has had it's share of ups and downs and we've made a lot of mistakes along the way. It has definitely not been a pretty journey in the least and we are well aware of our reputation.
Over the last few months we have been regrouping and rebuilding to fix our past and bring new products to the market - helped along by a small, but successful Kickstarter in October.
That all said, we can't stand by and have our reputation further destroyed by statements that only tell a part of the story.
Alyssa Faden (or Natalya Faden) of Torn World has made a statement that basically says we are to blame for her Kickstarter failing. This is absolutely untrue. We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.
Torn raised $67K in April 2013 primarily by including a large number of miniatures as stretch goals and a free shipping offer - similar to what the large companies like Mantic Games do – when they have $1M+ Kickstarters. The core game had 12 unique miniatures (39 total figures per set). They hired another company to sculpt these figures for them and provide manufacturable STL files.
This didn't happen. It was clear early on that the sculpts that were being produced were not manufacturable at all. A combination of undercuts, ultra-thin part areas, and other problems would mean anyone would be hard pressed to actually produce them. Alyssa then described these sculpts as "sketches" that could be used by other sculptors to create manufacturable models. Torn also hired a number of physical (i.e. non-digital putty/greenstuff) sculptors to make versions of these as well.
The sculpts from Alyssa's digital sculptors cost close to $20K from what she has told us. This doesn't include the additional sculptures ($300-400 or more each) done in putty.
At the same time, as Alyssa realized that nothing she had paid for from the digital sculptors was usable, she was receiving quotes from China factories to produce the miniatures. These were coming back 30% or so over what she had “estimated”. One quote we saw put the molding alone at $45K. (i.e. it didn't include the manufacturing of any miniatures – just the molds to do so – leaving $20K for sculpting, printing, shipping, etc). The project was absolutely doomed at this stage.
At this point she called us and wanted to know if we could help do this project for her. We pushed back as we already had a lot going on here and didn't want to complicate things. She kept coming back to us asking us to please quote on the project. Finally - and how we now regret this - we did.
Her plan was that she was going to have a new digital sculptor take the digital files and “fix” them to allow them to be molded. This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files. (Our project also did not include any of the 20+ other sculptures – some of them quite large multi-part expensive pieces including a massive Mu warmachine thing in many separate parts – that were needed to satisfy the Kickstarter – go visit her Kickstarter page to see all the add-on sculpts that were part of this – our part was just the core box set. She planned on having us quote on the additional work for these figures after the first project. At the time we did not know there was probably zero budget for this available.)
We drew up a contract together and this was our responsibility list:
1. Create molds for plastic production from TW-supplied master sculptures
2. Produce plastic figures from DFG-created molds.
Torn were responsible for giving us workable 3D files – which she failed to mention in her post - which we would of course work with the sculptor to make sure we could use. And that is where it fell apart.
As this was happening, the conventional sculptors had finished their work. We were ready to start molding those and producing parts. We sent pictures of the ones we received to Alyssa who posted them up on her Kickstarter pages. Based on the feedback she received she decided that the physical sculpts weren't good enough. She instructed us not to produce them and wait for the digital files to be redone.
She brought in a sculptor who began to work on the files. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't know that the files were such a mess that he was basically just re-sculpting everything from scratch. Reportedly, he was being paid $100-200 each - a really low price for the amount of work he was doing. Unfortunately, as he began to deliver the files to us we saw that changes needed to be made. The technical fixes themselves were fine - but the way they were being laid out presented issues with undercuts and in some cases used way too many parts per figure.
For example - the Mu Slinger - a 20mm tall mouse person - was delivered in five separate parts: head, two arms, body, and tail. Alyssa's instructions were to have as little gluing for the end customer as possible. We went back with a list of changes and suggestions on how to repose the sculpts to get close to a single piece figure.
The sculptor refused to communicate with us. We were forced to play the telephone game through Alyssa. But even then that did not result in changes. Alyssa was pulling her hair out - we were pulling our hair out as well. We just wanted to get some manufacturable files, print them, make the molds and produce what we were hired to make.
We recommended Alyssa hire another sculptor to try to fix the files - someone we trusted and whose work we respected. That was in December – only a short time ago. He started to look at the files and manipulate them. He quickly realized – as the original “fix” sculptor had - that one of the problems was the original files themselves. He asked if we could receive the native ZBrush files to work from. Those would be layered ZTL files. If he had those, he could make changes quickly.
To be safe, we asked Alyssa to ask the original digital sculptors for a sample of the original files to make sure they worked. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Instead, Alyssa apparently gave those digital sculptors $1000 to send her all the files without looking at them first. (We found out at this point that she and the original sculpting company had had a falling out and weren't on speaking terms – we don't know the whole story.)
The new sculptor received the files and discovered that they were a mess. In his words: "the issue isn't the poses as much as how they decided to layout the layers gaps and spaces that are hard or impossible to patch up because they bound them together. You can cut a piece off there is nothing under it lol have to fill the blank and then smooth it and it looks like crap."
He spent a lot of time and got us the one hoplite pose finalized which Alyssa posted January 8th. We thought we were now going to be okay but the more the sculptor dug into them the worse the files were.
Alyssa told us that she could not afford to pay for additional sculpting. We HAD to make what we had work. Unfortunately, that was impossible given the files we had to work with. Unless someone were to completely re-sculpt these figures from scratch there was no way we could produce them.
Defiance Games is now a scapegoat for Torn's decision to shut down this project - a convenient and easy target because of our own well-documented problems. We don't deny them – we definitely have had them – but we feel they are being used now to cover up Torn's inability to fulfill their Kickstarter.
We signed on to make their figures but we were never given the files that would allow that to happen. We are still prepared to finish the project and we've budgeted the materials and man-hours to do it. We just need usable files and we would be thrilled to do the work and make this project a reality.
Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is - for once - not our fault.
We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.
We know we don't have a great track record and we've been working to fix it. We know we did not complete the project. But we also want people to understand the other side of this story and why that is. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/24 18:16:29
I'm back!
2014/01/24 18:42:08
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
I love how they are displacing the blame saying it never would have worked. That doesn't provide an excuse to promise work, fail to deliver and still take the money.
If the files were in fact unusable then Defiance should have refunded the money immediately and let TA take her project to another company. DG's statement sounds an awful lot like well it wasn't going to work, so we liberated her money to save it from being misspent.
Like Dream Forge stated it takes virtually no time to determine that the files won't work, you can check for file integrity using free ware (mesh lab or nettfab) and know within 5 minutes if the file is print worthy or not. It does not take a long involved process. They should have sent Torn Armor a refund for the service that wouldn't be able to be delivered on and cancelled their agreement, not keep the TA money and say oops your bad.
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
2014/01/24 19:12:16
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
But all of that involves Tony taking the blame for something he did and he's proven incapable of that.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/01/24 20:59:02
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
The first thing Defiance should have done, and any other miniatures company using freelance digital sculptors as well, is to ask to see the files and inspect them BEFORE agreeing to any terms.
A simple NDA could have covered both parties.
DG could have taken a close look at the files to see how they were made and if they could work and what work (if any) would need to be done to fix them, then they could have proceeded further before agreeing to take on the job.
They could have seen the state the models were in and decide to back out. It's not that hard to test digital sculpts to see if they would work as 3D prints.
Once they had the files they could have their mold staff take a look at them as well to see if there would be any issues, which any competent moldmaker could do.
This is a failure on both parties, DG just have a "track record" of bad behavior so this situation is amplified in their direction.
2014/01/24 21:42:45
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Anyone else notice how they are referring to themselves as 'DFG'...
Really defiance games?!?
This is an obvious and frankly repulsive attempt to leech from the good name and hard work of Dream Forge Games... If I were Mark M, I'd be sharpening a legal letter and giving the attorneys the scent of the defiance crew.
This defiance crew really are a bloody poor show.
2014/01/24 22:41:10
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
prplehippo wrote: The first thing Defiance should have done, and any other miniatures company using freelance digital sculptors as well, is to ask to see the files and inspect them BEFORE agreeing to any terms.
A simple NDA could have covered both parties.
DG could have taken a close look at the files to see how they were made and if they could work and what work (if any) would need to be done to fix them, then they could have proceeded further before agreeing to take on the job.
They could have seen the state the models were in and decide to back out. It's not that hard to test digital sculpts to see if they would work as 3D prints.
Once they had the files they could have their mold staff take a look at them as well to see if there would be any issues, which any competent moldmaker could do.
This is a failure on both parties, DG just have a "track record" of bad behavior so this situation is amplified in their direction.
This is all assuming it wasn't a quick attempt by Tony to get a quick and easy cash injection before running off again. Considering "DFG's" reputation, that's a pretty naive assumption.
2014/01/24 22:51:33
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Anyone else notice how they are referring to themselves as 'DFG'...
Really defiance games?!?
This is an obvious and frankly repulsive attempt to leech from the good name and hard work of Dream Forge Games... If I were Mark M, I'd be sharpening a legal letter and giving the attorneys the scent of the defiance crew.
This defiance crew really are a bloody poor show.
I am pretty sure Mark is aware. I remember him posting something about contacting them about it (months ago), but then said things were cleared up.
Also he appears to have quiet a few blog posts clarifying Defiance DFG versus his own DFG. Also, a legal letter may mean nothing, unless Mark already had a registered trademark on it. For all we know (without searching on google, and I am lazy), is Mark may not even have a DBA as DFG.
theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Two years ago, the information available was pretty murky. The Chinese company put out a statement that contradicted Tony, basically saying he had not paid for the work they did and they weren't releasing product that wasn't paid for. Still, up until that point, WGF had an ok track record and folks were quick to come to the side of the local boy vs the foreign company. DG was late with thier first product, but the UAMC marines were pretty good, and so Tony kept some good will.
That all changed when DG began to fail to meet deadlines and delivered a series of shoddy products. IIRC, even Tony's biggest supporter through the initial mess Howard Whitehouse eventually jumped ship for lack of payment and not having any faith in DG.
Two and a half years of hindsight makes a big difference when you can clearly see the downward trajectory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/26 13:33:07
theHandofGork wrote: On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
Not knowing the whole story of those specific actions, but seeing how Wargames Factory has flourished and Defiance has not, I wonder even if true if it was not a very smart tactic on the manufacturer's part. He may well have realized what he was dealing with and decided he did not feel like failing. Ditching Tony seems to have worked.
Two years ago, the information available was pretty murky. The Chinese company put out a statement that contradicted Tony, basically saying he had not paid for the work they did and they weren't releasing product that wasn't paid for. Still, up until that point, WGF had an ok track record and folks were quick to come to the side of the local boy vs the foreign company. DFG was late with thier first product, but the UAMC marines were pretty good, and so Tony kept some good will.
That all changed when DFG began to fail to meet deadlines and delivered a series of shoddy products. IIRC, even Tony's biggest supporter through the initial mess Howard Whitehouse eventually jumped ship for lack of payment and not having any faith in DFG.
Two and a half years of hindsight makes a big difference when you can clearly see the downward trajectory.
Are you talking about DFG: Dream Forge Games, or DG: Defiance Games?
2014/01/25 16:15:16
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
2014/01/26 07:39:56
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
carlos13th wrote: I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
Ahhh cock - I avoided their KS as I thought they were all one and the same.
2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games.
2014/01/26 08:12:21
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
carlos13th wrote: I am sure you are not the only one who has done that Da Boss. It saddens me that Dream Forge games have probably lost some business due to their acronym being used by Defiance and others to talk about Defiance.
Dream Forge are a fantastic company by all accounts and are totally unlike Defiance.
Ahhh cock - I avoided their KS as I thought they were all one and the same.
Thats a shame. Bet you are not the only one either. I avoided DFG kick-starter only because I didn't have the cash at the time. Their leviathan was just too big for me to buy or store because I had no use for it but their troops are really nice and I plan on picking some up when I can.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/26 08:12:40
2014/01/26 11:49:59
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
DG kickstarters have the threads full of warnings, DFG kickstarters have the threads full of praise. Quite easy actually to distinguish between the two
Kroothawk wrote: DG kickstarters have the threads full of warnings, DFG kickstarters have the threads full of praise. Quite easy actually to distinguish between the two
Not if you dismiss out of hand and dont even go in and look p which I accept is my own stupid fault btw. It is just annoying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/27 01:10:21
2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games.
2014/01/30 03:44:11
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
This is Alyssa from Torn World. I have just been directed towards Rust Forge's post on page 8 and I have to say that knowing the conversations we were having with Defiance while their timeline was playing out makes me feel nauseous.
2014/01/31 02:03:10
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
We apologize for the lack of updates! As you know we've been dealing with quite a bit in the background as we push this project forward.
As we mentioned last time, Kickstarter fulfillment is the complete focus of the company at this time. These new products will be the foundation on which we build out and launch more new products in the future.
We also made a decision with the Hardsuits and the German Mech that is changing the timeline. Originally we were just going to spin cast these in the same way as the Bugs, Chinese infantry, etc. But we realized the demand for these would be such - not just for the Kickstarter fulfillment but for long term as well - that it would make a lot of sense to have them injection molded.
The hard suits will be a restic style plastic - the material is very similar to what we are doing with the spin cast. The mechs - knock on wood if all goes well - will be high impact polystyrene (HIPS) and can be put together with plastic glue.
We did an extensive search and vetting of potential outsource manufacturing partners and chose a factory in China to work with. They have done quite a bit of work in the games industry and we've been impressed with their capabilities. Chinese New Year messed with our schedule a bit - that's a 3-4 week hiatus in China - but we are now back on track with them. We don't have a final date for the hard suits yet but we're working on that with them.
There are a lot of balls in the air and a lot is going on. We are taking it all slow and steady and day by day. We want to make sure we make the best product we possibly can. We will do our best to keep everyone up to speed as we go along. Thanks again for your support!
Discuss amongst yourselves!
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/02/28 20:46:13
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
We do need more miniatures companies that work in HIPS, but I see no reason to believe that the mech will be any less ineptly handled than every single thing they have ever touched.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2014/02/28 21:00:11
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
We apologize for the lack of updates! As you know we've been dealing with quite a bit in the background as we push this project forward.
As we mentioned last time, Kickstarter fulfillment is the complete focus of the company at this time. These new products will be the foundation on which we build out and launch more new products in the future.
We also made a decision with the Hardsuits and the German Mech that is changing the timeline. Originally we were just going to spin cast these in the same way as the Bugs, Chinese infantry, etc. But we realized the demand for these would be such - not just for the Kickstarter fulfillment but for long term as well - that it would make a lot of sense to have them injection molded.
The hard suits will be a restic style plastic - the material is very similar to what we are doing with the spin cast. The mechs - knock on wood if all goes well - will be high impact polystyrene (HIPS) and can be put together with plastic glue.
We did an extensive search and vetting of potential outsource manufacturing partners and chose a factory in China to work with. They have done quite a bit of work in the games industry and we've been impressed with their capabilities. Chinese New Year messed with our schedule a bit - that's a 3-4 week hiatus in China - but we are now back on track with them. We don't have a final date for the hard suits yet but we're working on that with them.
There are a lot of balls in the air and a lot is going on. We are taking it all slow and steady and day by day. We want to make sure we make the best product we possibly can. We will do our best to keep everyone up to speed as we go along. Thanks again for your support!
Discuss amongst yourselves!
Anyone who thinks that these figures will ever come out should ask nurse to take away the sharp cutty things and then buy the bridge I have for sale. IMHO
Necros wrote: A company in china working in the games industry? Could it be Wargames Factory?
Ha! If it is them they of all people will know to do cash upfront.
FYI (and OT - sorry but thought hit me) I just bought WGF celts. Very good models for the price. 32 celts, 1 chariot box (3 chariots) and 10 cav. All were around $20 to $25 a box! Molding was good and for that price I was very impressed.
2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games.
2014/02/28 21:44:49
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Do you think Tony has already drafted the 'Our Chinese partners screwed us out of all our money and it is their fault we cannot deliver unless each of you backers ponies up XXX more dollars' update?
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2014/02/28 21:56:20
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
For what it's worth I'd like to see em make real plastic models. I liked the looks of those suits a lot.. And even though I did get the bugs I ordered, I don't think I'd order direct from them again, but I'll pick a few up if they make it to store shelves
2014/02/28 22:04:37
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
They're a cancer on the industry. Hope they crash and burn and stay down and never see another cent that could go to creative, competent, honest companies.
2014/02/28 22:09:59
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
and 
WIP
