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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 OrkaMorka wrote:
That's why it's rare (in my local area) for anyone to take it. Throw it in the war bosses group maybe, but at best it's giving you a chance for trukk explosions to hurt less. That's why as an ork player the only ap that concerns me is ap 2, because my Mega's are the only thing in that armour range.

But 3+ is stil giving you more surviviabilty than most other troops. Guard are only 5+ if I recall (I'm at work so I have no codex's on me), tau 4+ for warriors? And iirc, your marine is stronger and tougher than the squisher races anyways.


Survivability, yes, but no punch. They can ignore the tacs, kill all the competent units and then finish the tabling once all the threats are elimininated
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 OrkaMorka wrote:
Would the improvement of marines go ham in hand with maybe improvements with the bolter? Speaking from the ork side of the house, I have to pay 11pts for a hard boy with a shoota. So that gives me a str 4 ap5 shot and armour save of 4+. No added benefits anything. From what I see in marines, you're getting a 3+ sv and unlike orks they don't try and kill each other whenever they lose a few guys.

Maybe instead of making marines cheaper, they up the stats of the bolter by pushing its range up or increasing it's str/ap.


Not an entirely justified comparison as I feel 'ard boyz are kind of lacking as well.

Except if you run them in a trukk, I guess.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 OrkaMorka wrote:
But 3+ is stil giving you more surviviabilty than most other troops. Guard are only 5+ if I recall (I'm at work so I have no codex's on me), tau 4+ for warriors?


But who cares about single-model durability? What matters is durability per point, and the three 5-point guardsmen have better total durability than the single 15-point MEQ model, especially when you're talking about objective campers that can easily go to ground behind an ADL for a 2+ cover save.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dallas, Texas

I think they'd be better if they had the option to have more attacks. Units with single attacks are brutal. At least against my friends who all play heavy CC type armies. It's why I chose Space Wolves over vanilla.

Drive closer! I want to hit them with my sword! 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

Akiasura wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta..


Hmm nah, it´s because I know how and where to apply them for full effect.

 Peregrine wrote:

Given your previous comments about how "balanced" 40k's rules are and how little improvement they need I think we can safely conclude that you play in a very casual environment where nobody ever brings good lists and everyone always cooperates to forge a narrative and ensure that even the worst units get their opportunity to be useful.


I´ve never stated 40K´s rules are balanced, do cite your source on this before taking further things out of your ass. Seeing as you have a need to completely make things up from thin air I now consider you even less credible than before, which wasn´t much to beginwith.

Copypaste where I say 40K´s rules are balanced, and do it now, thanks.

Next to that I play in a very competitive enviroment and mostly tournaments, so next to making things up you are also incorrect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 08:11:22


   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






 RunicFIN wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta..


Hmm nah, it´s because I know how and where to apply them for full effect.

It's a combination of both most likely. Tacticals work better than they could in my area too due to the low vehicle meta, if it were higher they'd start to under perform.

   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

 n0t_u wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta..


Hmm nah, it´s because I know how and where to apply them for full effect.

It's a combination of both most likely. Tacticals work better than they could in my area too due to the low vehicle meta, if it were higher they'd start to under perform.


I play in 3 different groups and mostly tournaments as I´ve stated before. ( Not that you could know that, not saying that. ) Only one group is a bit more casual, the other two are pretty much "do your worst" and there is pretty much nothing that´s not allowed aslong as it´s within the rules. Occasionally we practice with the BAO comp for upcoming tourneys, accompanied by a deathclock.

My tacticals work the other way around to yours. The more vehicles on the table, the more bang for buck I get. Only vehicles with Ceramite Plating shut them down a bit.

Tacticals can be used in a way that they bring back their points and way more. They can also be used poorly. Usually I only use tacticals in an alpha strike list ( which is what I mostly play ) but occasionally I just go for 5man objective sitting scouts if I´m going with a more "traditional" approach, meaning using all possible points to something more effective than Troops in general.

Games rarely come down to Troops scoring an objective over a non-Troop unit anyway in my experience ( meaning Objective Secured in itself rarely decides the game. ) It´s usually about last turn objective caps, non-scoring units capping, or someone getting tabled.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 08:31:48


   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Peregrine wrote:
 OrkaMorka wrote:
But 3+ is stil giving you more surviviabilty than most other troops. Guard are only 5+ if I recall (I'm at work so I have no codex's on me), tau 4+ for warriors?


But who cares about single-model durability? What matters is durability per point, and the three 5-point guardsmen have better total durability than the single 15-point MEQ model, especially when you're talking about objective campers that can easily go to ground behind an ADL for a 2+ cover save.


If we're talking about durability-per-point, don't we need to add the cost of the ADL to the cost of the guardsman squad?

It isn't free, after all.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

I wonder if the root of the problem is that marines have become too popular. This is my theory; tear it apart at will.

There was a time, in the relatively early days of 40k, that basic tactical marines were the mutt's nuts. You didn't have all the extreme chapter variation that you get now, and bolters, stats and power armour were a big deal.

Marines were very much a beginner's army, being easy to paint and tough/powerful enough to not have to worry too much about the tactical decisions that other armies would have to make if they didn't want to die in droves to bolter fire, e.g. using cover or concentrating those lasgun shots. This made them very popular, because not every new player will move on to another army afterwards.

This became a problem because the prevalance of Marines in actual games of 40k far outweighed their supposed rarity in the fluff, meaning that even Space Marine players had to design their lists to be anti-Space Marine in order to be effective against 90% of the armies they would face in games. It also created a demand for new anti-marine weapons and units. The result? T4 3+ armour save is the new norm, not the exception it was supposed to be. These days, I would argue that Ork boyz are, ironically, far superior in terms of their capacity to take punishment and still pose a threat *as a unit*.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/20 11:06:25


 
   
Made in dk
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Denmark.

 Krusha wrote:
I wonder if the root of the problem is that marines have become too popular. This is my theory; tear it apart at will.

There was a time, in the relatively early days of 40k, that basic tactical marines were the mutt's nuts. You didn't have all the extreme chapter variation that you get now, and bolters, stats and power armour were a big deal.

Marines were very much a beginner's army, being easy to paint and tough/powerful enough to not have to worry too much about the tactical decisions that other armies would have to make if they didn't want to die in droves to bolter fire, e.g. using cover or concentrating those lasgun shots. This made them very popular, because not every new player will move on to another army afterwards.

This became a problem because the prevalance of Marines in actual games of 40k far outweighed their supposed rarity in the fluff, meaning that even Space Marine players had to design their lists to be anti-Space Marine in order to be effective against 90% of the armies they would face in games. It also created a demand for new anti-marine weapons and units. The result? T4 3+ armour save is the new norm, not the exception it was supposed to be. These days, I would argue that Ork boyz are, ironically, far superior in terms of their capacity to take punishment and still pose a threat *as a unit*.


1+ This. Just... Aaaaaall of this.

Nowadays I guess it depends on meta - My meta is AM heavy, so anti-infantry and flamers are the bees knees, while we have, like, a quarter of a SM player somewhere... Maybe it's just because there's so many SM factions that it gets more and more popular, and therefor more prevelant in most metae. I don't know, it looks like it to me.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can you link that article? I am REALLY curious what he said.

He mostly talks garbage, doesn't he?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






One easy way to buff tactical marines, would be to give sergeants access to an auspex.

   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Crimson wrote:
One easy way to buff tactical marines, would be to give sergeants access to an auspex.


What does auspex do?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block





vipoid: instead of shooting, pick an enemy within 12" and give it -1 to cover saves .


I wish they were better since they are so bad ass fluffwise, as said earlier, a large part of the problem is that everything else has gotten too good at dealing with them and that they dont put out a lot of hurt.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Dallas, Texas

The thing that usually beats me up is my friend fielding units of 30 Orkz with a Painboy. That starts to get out of hand really quickly. Emperor help you if they get to assault you.



Drive closer! I want to hit them with my sword! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 RunicFIN wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta..


Hmm nah, it´s because I know how and where to apply them for full effect.

 Peregrine wrote:

Given your previous comments about how "balanced" 40k's rules are and how little improvement they need I think we can safely conclude that you play in a very casual environment where nobody ever brings good lists and everyone always cooperates to forge a narrative and ensure that even the worst units get their opportunity to be useful.


I´ve never stated 40K´s rules are balanced, do cite your source on this before taking further things out of your ass. Seeing as you have a need to completely make things up from thin air I now consider you even less credible than before, which wasn´t much to beginwith.

Copypaste where I say 40K´s rules are balanced, and do it now, thanks.

Next to that I play in a very competitive enviroment and mostly tournaments, so next to making things up you are also incorrect.


Forgive me if I find this a bit hard to believe. Their "full effect" is too small for me to take them seriously. I still think it's your opponents. What loadout are you using on tactical squads to make this happen?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 16:30:55


 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Honestly, a buff to boltguns (Shred?) and maybe an extra attack or a point or two drop would make them more competitive. Outside of a Mech Khan List, there's not much point in taking them over 55pt objective camping scouts or 105pt (before special weapon) 5man bike units.

220pts in Tactical Marines gets you 10 marines in a rhino, with a Combi-Plas, Plasma Gun, and a Lascannon.

For 50pts more, you can get 10 Marines on bikes, with 4 Grav/Plasma guns.

Or, if you are going to focus into your elites/heavy support, 110pts fills your scoring, leaving 1390/1740pts for your stuff that actually does the heavy lifting (like that Grav Star with Draigo and Tigurius)

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RunicFIN wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 RunicFIN wrote:
Weird, my Tacticals perform well in all my games and are almost always worth their points. Must be something I do then.


More likely it's your meta..


Hmm nah, it´s because I know how and where to apply them for full effect.


Then please explain how they are applied to this full effect. I can easily come up with situations where many decent units are useful, so far no one has come up for one with tacticals that isn't pod in and die, which can be done better by sternguard regardless.
 RunicFIN wrote:

I play in 3 different groups and mostly tournaments as I´ve stated before. ( Not that you could know that, not saying that. ) Only one group is a bit more casual, the other two are pretty much "do your worst" and there is pretty much nothing that´s not allowed aslong as it´s within the rules. Occasionally we practice with the BAO comp for upcoming tourneys, accompanied by a deathclock.

If your meta is this competitive, then it should be easy for you to come up with situations that tacticals are useful in. I play in an extremely competitive meta, though we do not allow unbound or knights for the most part, and nobody takes tacticals.
 RunicFIN wrote:

My tacticals work the other way around to yours. The more vehicles on the table, the more bang for buck I get. Only vehicles with Ceramite Plating shut them down a bit.

How? Bolters do not hurt the vast majority of vehicles in this game, as was demonstrated earlier. Special weapons and heavies, if they don't move, can do some damage, but aren't very point efficient in doing so. Even podding in a marine squad with 2 meltas and a multi-melta isn't likely to do pop a tank, and your unit is most likely dead the following turn. Sure, you can dedicate 2 squads to it, but then you are applying 400 points to down under 200.
 RunicFIN wrote:

Tacticals can be used in a way that they bring back their points and way more. They can also be used poorly. Usually I only use tacticals in an alpha strike list ( which is what I mostly play ) but occasionally I just go for 5man objective sitting scouts if I´m going with a more "traditional" approach, meaning using all possible points to something more effective than Troops in general.

Isn't this admitting that you take tacticals as a handicap? How can they be used to bring back their points and more? I have yet to see an example that works that isn't hugely specific and relies on the other portions of the army doing the heavy lifting, while tacticals get the last wound of HP. Something many other units that are troops could also accomplish.
 RunicFIN wrote:

Games rarely come down to Troops scoring an objective over a non-Troop unit anyway in my experience ( meaning Objective Secured in itself rarely decides the game. ) It´s usually about last turn objective caps, non-scoring units capping, or someone getting tabled.


Agreed, making them worse.
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

Akiasura wrote:

Isn't this admitting that you take tacticals as a handicap? How can they be used to bring back their points and more? I have yet to see an example that works that isn't hugely specific and relies on the other portions of the army doing the heavy lifting, while tacticals get the last wound of HP.


Not at all, they are absolutely great in a drop pod alpha strike list, which is my most frequent build when playing loyalists. And ofcourse other portions of the army do the heavy lifting, there´s not many armies where this isn´t the case. But that varies a bit. In your meta you said Knights are banned, in mine they are not. My tactical squads are responsible for destroying a Knight 60% of the time.

Akiasura wrote:
I can easily come up with situations where many decent units are useful, so far no one has come up for one with tacticals that isn't pod in and die, which can be done better by sternguard regardless.


If one is podding them in and dying ( all the time, ofcourse it´s not always avoidable ) then one is doing something wrong. Sternguard also costs more, they are not a great choice for suicides. Threat saturation is a great way to increase survivability for one, among other things like smart positioning and co-operating with the rest of the army in a way that whatever could kill them just isn´t going to be there next turn. Even if they do get killed it depends on what they did before dying if it was worth it in the end. If you destroyed a Rhino, too bad. If you blew apart an Imperial Knight and got killed, great.

Martel732 wrote:
What loadout are you using on tactical squads to make this happen?


Drop Pod with Meltaguns + Combimelta, occasionally Combat Squaded to divide fire ( but never when there´s a risk of them giving FB. ) There´s frequently a Sternguard pod with Combimeltas going with them, and the opponent usually starts the game with a Callidus assassin on their face/too near for comfort. Often this translates to the rest of the army doing what they want as the opponent has to focus on clearing his own table edge first, but not always.

Akiasura wrote:

If your meta is this competitive, then it should be easy for you to come up with situations that tacticals are useful in.


Umm... yes? And I do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:01:25


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Drop Pod with Meltaguns + Combimelta,"

Since the vehicle damage nerf, this is incredibly unreliable. Why do all tac marine glory stories rely on getting lucky? That doesn't make them good in a general sense.

There's also the issue of bubble wrapping because your opponent can see a priori what's in your drop pods. This is the exact same reason why I'm not crazy about infernus pistols.

"they are absolutely great in a drop pod alpha strike list"

If by great, you mean drop in and fail to do anything, you are correct. I've played against loyalist drop lists. They are not that great. SW do it 5X better, because they don't implode when I assault them.

" co-operating with the rest of the army"

I see what you did there.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:03:36


 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

Martel732 wrote:
Since the vehicle damage nerf, this is incredibly unreliable.


In a vacuum, sure. In practice not so much, if your army is blistering with melta and supporting antitank fire.

Martel732 wrote:
bla bla I reject your reality and substitute my own while automatically having an opposite view on anything you say, including green being a colour


Ok, I can see where this is going ( nowhere. ) Live in the world where your Tacticals do nothing. Mine will continue to thrive in competitive and tournament enviroments. Must be magic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:10:20


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 RunicFIN wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Since the vehicle damage nerf, this is incredibly unreliable.


In a vacuum, sure. In practice not so much, if your army is blistering with melta and supporting antitank fire.


Two meltas per tac squad is not "blistering". And I suspect the "supporting anti-tank fire" is taking away far more HPs than the tac squads are.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 RunicFIN wrote:
In a vacuum, sure. In practice not so much, if your army is blistering with melta and supporting antitank fire.


IOW, "as long as the rest of my army can do the job without much help my tactical marines are great for stripping a random HP or two".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

 Peregrine wrote:


IOW, "as long as the rest of my army can do the job without much help my tactical marines are great for stripping a random HP or two".


Nah.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't think the proponents of the tac marines are really debating in good faith here. What makes tacs marines themselves good *in a vacuum*? They don't get assists from the rest of the list for this question. DA don't need assists to shred my marines. Tac squads don't get assists for this analysis. Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RunicFIN wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


IOW, "as long as the rest of my army can do the job without much help my tactical marines are great for stripping a random HP or two".


Nah.


Yup. That's basically what you said. You just won't admit it. See my above post about debating in good faith.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:12:24


 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think the proponents of the tac marines are really debating in good faith here. What makes tacs marines themselves good *in a vacuum*? They don't get assists from the rest of the list for this question. DA don't need assists to shred my marines. Tac squads don't get assists for this analysis. Try again.


And quite frankly you don´t get to make rules regarding in what context anyone thinks of anything as good or bad, sorry.

Martel732 wrote:
Yup. That's basically what you said. You just won't admit it. See my above post about debating in good faith.


Nope, said they rarely fail to bring back their points which is completely not what you say I am saying, next to being a fact that won´t change despite you saying anything. Have fun accepting this. Also, reading comprehension, get some.

Conclusion: When I employ Tactical Marines I do well with them and they perform 90% of the time. For some reason you are struggling to get any use out of them, and you are also having difficulty accepting that someone else is without having a compulsive need to base it on their meta/alignment of the planets/colour of the opponents socks. Alternatively you´re just looking to argue about pretty much anything just like Peregrine, translating to some sort of personal issues I guess. In the end however, Tacticals work for me in practice and have done so for atleast 40 games this year, apparently for you they don´t. And that´s pretty much it, nothing the other one says obviously won´t change it one way or another, hence I´m done talking about this particular subject with you in particular, despite the obviously incoming bait to continue after this post. Have a great day.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:23:27


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Taking a HP off a rhino is getting their points back? Because I don't believe you are wrecking Knights with two melta shots.

In order to convince me that tacs are good, and that I should spend points on them, or anyone else for that matter, you should be able to show how they are good ON THEIR OWN. A loyalist drop melta list wasn't even good against my 5th ed BA. I can't imagine it will be any better with the new codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/20 19:17:47


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The unit that is average at everything shouldn't cost double the points of a specialized unit. I would even suggest that being average should be cheaper than specialized given that min/mixing is the most competitive option in a game featuring strong quantitative elements.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Why would anyone waste a DP for a tactical squad in alpha strike...It makes your alpha strike much weaker than it could have been and then your objective secured units are destroyed too boot. It's a really dumb way to play them. In reality you know you are pigeonholed into using them at something they aren't really effective at because they are bad at everything else.

Trust me dude. If you have to use a marine squad just because you have to. 5 man with laz cannon is their best load out - if it blows up a tank with a lucky 6 you win the game, lol. What is sad is I can get a land speeder for 75 that more than doubles that squads firepower it's also more mobile and versatile - there are very few things in the game it can't kill. It can also grab objectives 30 inches away. It's almost guaranteed to pay for itself or draw important fire off of other important squads.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RunicFIN wrote:
Akiasura wrote:

Isn't this admitting that you take tacticals as a handicap? How can they be used to bring back their points and more? I have yet to see an example that works that isn't hugely specific and relies on the other portions of the army doing the heavy lifting, while tacticals get the last wound of HP.


Not at all, they are absolutely great in a drop pod alpha strike list, which is my most frequent build when playing loyalists. And ofcourse other portions of the army do the heavy lifting, there´s not many armies where this isn´t the case. But that varies a bit. In your meta you said Knights are banned, in mine they are not. My tactical squads are responsible for destroying a Knight 60% of the time.

Many armies have troops do a lot of the fighting. Orks and IG for example, rely heavily on troops. Other armies this is not the case, but you won't seem them denying it.

How are they destroying knights 60% of the time? Melta's are very short ranged, and knights cripple units in melee, which is what will happen. If you throw 600 points of tacticals at a knight you are likely to see, at best 6 meltas, 4 of which will hit, then you need to do actual damage. That is assuming you can get 30 marines within 6" for the extra d6.
It seems you are a very lucky person, which is fine. I have a friend who rules so absurdly above average that it defies belief. I record most of the dice rolls for statistical analysis, and considering the number of 6's he rolls, rending is overpowered. This doesn't make genestealers good, but I would expect him to take 10 genestealers and wipe 5 terminators.
 RunicFIN wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I can easily come up with situations where many decent units are useful, so far no one has come up for one with tacticals that isn't pod in and die, which can be done better by sternguard regardless.


If one is podding them in and dying ( all the time, ofcourse it´s not always avoidable ) then one is doing something wrong. Sternguard also costs more, they are not a great choice for suicides. Threat saturation is a great way to increase survivability for one, among other things like smart positioning and co-operating with the rest of the army in a way that whatever could kill them just isn´t going to be there next turn. Even if they do get killed it depends on what they did before dying if it was worth it in the end. If you destroyed a Rhino, too bad. If you blew apart an Imperial Knight and got killed, great.


Sternguard pay 28 points (I believe? don't have my codex handy, it could be more but it won't matter) for a plasma gun. So let's say an even 60 points for 2 guns. Pods don't matter since each squad is taking them.
Marines have to take a at least 5, (70 points), plus a plasma gun, plus a sarge, plus a combi weapon, putting them at nearly double points. They then need to buy another whole squad and drop pod to do this again, while all sternguard need are another 2 bodies.
Sternguard are one of the best suicide squads in the game.
You can smart position all you want, but in a game with true LoS, and weight of fire being a thing and marines not being overly concerned about cover saves, it's hard to completely hide them in a drop AND target an enemy with enough tacticals to bring them down. Unless your enemy leaves a squad unprotected way out by it's lonesome, suggesting they are bad players.
You have yet to demonstrate a way that marines are effective other than pod and die. You pretty much suggested they pod in and the rest of the army deals with the enemy, while the tacticals serve as distractions. If people are distracted by tacticals, they are probably bad players.
 RunicFIN wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What loadout are you using on tactical squads to make this happen?


Drop Pod with Meltaguns + Combimelta, occasionally Combat Squaded to divide fire ( but never when there´s a risk of them giving FB. ) There´s frequently a Sternguard pod with Combimeltas going with them, and the opponent usually starts the game with a Callidus assassin on their face/too near for comfort. Often this translates to the rest of the army doing what they want as the opponent has to focus on clearing his own table edge first, but not always.

Surely you mean a meltagun and combi? Unless you play wolves (I doubt anyone thinks GreyHunters are terrible) or something.
 RunicFIN wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

If your meta is this competitive, then it should be easy for you to come up with situations that tacticals are useful in.


Umm... yes? And I do.

So far you have not. Knights do not die to tacticals easily as you have suggested, and I have yet to hear a scenario from you.
You even suggested that sternguard are worse at dropping than tacticals, which is objectively false.
   
 
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