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Why does it have to be sci fi kits? An example has been provided and you're just moving the goalposts.

Talys, I think what everyone is trying to say (to keep with your car analogy) that with GW one is buying a premium car (some Audi, BMW, or whatever) that was made at VW Beetle cost and scale and is sold for a Ferrari price (or high end Porsche?) if compared to similar products.

Again, a nice conversion, but conversions aren't limited to 40k.

I don't know off the top of my head, but Dreamforge sprues seem quite nice and look to have a lot of stuff on them. Don't know how many extra arms and what not are on the sprues. An argument could be made that the price difference between the two would allow to buy an entire extra box with all the bits you'd need to build an additional 10+ troopers, or use them purely for conversion fodder, or a combination thereof.

Put another way, some of those boxes are so cheap that if you only used half of the boxes contents to build full figures and put the other half in your bits box, you'd still end up paying less than GW.

Goalpost moving or not, your argument is being refined to such a point that it applies only to you, in which case I'm not going to tell you that your enjoyment is wrong. I was simply responding to your earlier claim that there were no reasonable plastic sci-fi alternatives, of which there are many. They may not meet your specific needs or wants, but it doesn't make it any less a valid comparison when explaining that GW's prices are mildly out of whack with the industry at large.

I added an edit to my previous post if you happened to miss it.

This argument always boils down to if you like grimdark sci-fi with the specific aesthetic of 40k and 40k tropes (e.g. genetically altered religious supersoldiers who serve a vast Imperium, ancient elf-like races with paths of war, bug-like aliens that devour everything, etc.) then you're deliberately saying that 40k is the only thing appeals to you because nothing else 100% matches 40k in look and feel. That doesn't mean that GW prices are fine, it means that you're okay with paying it because you personally like the aesthetics.

They're still overpriced, just you're okay with accepting that they're overpriced. It doesn't magically mean they're priced fine, it means that despite the high price you're okay with paying it because it gives you exactly what you want.

WayneTheGame wrote:
This argument always boils down to if you like grimdark sci-fi with the specific aesthetic of 40k and 40k tropes (e.g. genetically altered religious supersoldiers who serve a vast Imperium, ancient elf-like races with paths of war, bug-like aliens that devour everything, etc.) then you're deliberately saying that 40k is the only thing appeals to you because nothing else 100% matches 40k in look and feel. That doesn't mean that GW prices are fine, it means that you're okay with paying it because you personally like the aesthetics.

They're still overpriced, just you're okay with accepting that they're overpriced. It doesn't magically mean they're priced fine, it means that despite the high price you're okay with paying it because it gives you exactly what you want.

Yep, thank you for saying this, Wayne. And of course, it's perfectly fine to feel this way, people just need to be honest that this is the reason why they enjoy it and not for any objective reasoning.

@Grimtuff - saying you are only interested in SciFi is not moving goalposts. Not any more than the civilmwar guy jot caring how much the price of an Imperial Knight or Eldar Fire Dragon is. It is so far different than what they are interested in that the Imperial Knight might as well be a Tonka or Transformer.

@Blacksails - sorry, no, I disagree that I'm over refining it. I'm totally open to other companies and aesthetics. I am not married to 40k aesthetic (well, it's so varied anyways). I would be in my glory if 5 other companies produced modelling friendly scifi kits. I think there are many people out there who enjoy the scifi modelling hobby. My contention is that 40k is by far the most complete world to do this in, and in fact no other company comes close (for scifi modelling). If kitbashing scifi stuff ain't your thing, yeah, there are cheaper routes to go. I thin we agree on this.

@WayneTheGame - no, I like lots of scifi aesthetics, not just the 40k Imperium look. I actually really like a lot of PP models too, but they are not as modification friendly, and they are more expensive than GW on a per model basis, on average. Yes, I am happy to agree that GW kits are expensive; I have said so a zillion times. If another company produces a nice collection, I would pay as much or more. It isn't a loyalty to GW, it's doing what I like in my spare time and having limited companies to choose from.

I'm not aware of WM/H being more expensive than 40k, is it that they're made of metal and therefore a more expensive medium? From everything I've seen, WM/H are either on-par or cheaper than 40k.

 Talys wrote:


@Blacksails - sorry, no, I disagree that I'm over refining it. I'm totally open to other companies and aesthetics. I am not married to 40k aesthetic (well, it's so varied anyways). I would be in my glory if 5 other companies produced modelling friendly scifi kits. I think there are many people out there who enjoy the scifi modelling hobby. My contention is that 40k is by far the most complete world to do this in, and in fact no other company comes close (for scifi modelling). If kitbashing scifi stuff ain't your thing, yeah, there are cheaper routes to go. I thin we agree on this.

I still feel your points in favour of GW are very specific to you. That said, GW has the advantage in the area of number of kits because they're also the longest running sci-fi model producer that I know of. Given a few more years, it wouldn't surprise me if more companies can offer a wider arrange of vehicles (my primary concern) and extra kits. The current pattern is showing that anyways, so we can only hope. If Dreamforge can produce more beautiful kits like the Leviathan and APC, we'll all be laughing.

Anyways, the amount of bits per box starts becoming a little irrelevant when you can just buy extra boxes for the same price of GW, allowing you to convert and model whatever your heart desires.

As for your last point, yes, on that we can agree, which makes perfect sense. For my purposes, I use Vic Minis and simply buy the specific bits I want/need.

 Accolade wrote:
Yep, thank you for saying this, Wayne. And of course, it's perfectly fine to feel this way, people just need to be honest that this is the reason why they enjoy it and not for any objective reasoning.

I am being perfectly honest when I say, there are no companies that produce company-scale scifi model collections with the versatility of GW factions, aesthetic notwithstanding. Disagree? Give me a link. Just one!

Objectively, there is no point in me taking on Deadzone as a hobby, because in 2 months I would have nothing left to model. I can say this of a huge number of companies that make nice kits I would (and often do) happily buy, but have no lasting power. Objectively, I want to a collection that lends itself to me obsessing over adding something else for months and years, not days and weeks. I DO paint up other stuff, because it's cool. But guess what? One week later, I hane no more Nomads or Pan Oceana models left tomworkmon, somtjeynget stuffed onto a display case and I forget about them until some new release.

 Talys wrote:
@Navaro - but this is exactly the point. Historicals are to SciFi as Apples are to Oranges and Station Wagons are to SUVs.

Apples and oranges are both fruits, yet oranges may be much more expensive. If you want an orange, you just have to pay more. If you don't want a station wagon and want an SUV, it doesn't matter that the station wagon and SUV cost the same to produce, and the SUV is priced higher. Of you want what you want, suck it up.

In the same way, not every miniature on a sprue is comparable. You can compare an Infinity metal miniature with a PP metal miniature, but it's much harder to directly compare with a multipart GW kit. Likewise, comparing a SciFi model with a historical model is like telling the vegetarian that a steak has more protein, or a meat lover to forego the burger because a salad is healthier and cheaper.

In other words: Paying more for a multipart SciFi miniature is not overpaying for anything at all, if there are no reasonable alternatives, and what you want are (a) plastic multipart miniatures that are (b) Science Fiction themed.

If there are alternatives that would satisfy a buyer in those criteria, then yes, an argument can be made that one is a bad deal (in he way that you can compare 2 pizzas or 2 SUVs). But even then, very often, a person is better off buying what they want, than settling for something they love less, simply because it's cheaper. Because maybe you like the pizza from the more expensive place better.

Likewise with the paint: If you settle for something you like less on principle, and save $30 over a year, the only person that's really taking a hit is you. Now, if you're indifferent to the paint and figure it's all the same, then of course, you should buy the least expensive commodity.

Like this?
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dreamforge-games

 Blacksails wrote:

Goalpost moving or not, your argument is being refined to such a point that it applies only to you, in which case I'm not going to tell you that your enjoyment is wrong.

Nor should you, but the trouble is in this, and pretty much every other thread I've seen come to think of it, discussion, that's what Talys' argument boils down to. "I'm fine with this because I have plenty of money/play in gaming utopia with the bestest wargamers ever/really like it therefore there's no problem" is the nutshell of most every stance in every discussion I've seen.

While this is fine, after all of something that isn't affecting you is always going to have less impact, it does betray a lack of empathy for people who don't necessarily occupy the same position. While I wouldn't say it trivialises other people's arguments, it certainly minimises them, and does stretch credulity a little.

 Blacksails wrote:

I still feel your points in favour of GW are very specific to you. That said, GW has the advantage in the area of number of kits because they're also the longest running sci-fi model producer that I know of. Given a few more years, it wouldn't surprise me if more companies can offer a wider arrange of vehicles (my primary concern) and extra kits. The current pattern is showing that anyways, so we can only hope. If Dreamforge can produce more beautiful kits like the Leviathan and APC, we'll all be laughing.

This would make me very happy! Ask the universe, perhaps it shall deliver

It isn't JUST the collections, by the way. GW/FW release new stuff at a dizzying rate to those 'less invested' in terms of time. But if you are really into a couple of factions, even GW's release rate feels slow, because I'm always itching to add more to my favorite factions.

 Talys wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Yep, thank you for saying this, Wayne. And of course, it's perfectly fine to feel this way, people just need to be honest that this is the reason why they enjoy it and not for any objective reasoning.

I am being perfectly honest when I say, there are no companies that produce company-scale scifi model collections with the versatility of GW factions, aesthetic notwithstanding. Disagree? Give me a link. Just one!

Objectively, there is no point in me taking on Deadzone as a hobby, because in 2 months I would have nothing left to model. I can say this of a huge number of companies that make nice kits I would (and often do) happily buy, but have no lasting power. Objectively, I want to a collection that lends itself to me obsessing over adding something else for months and years, not days and weeks. I DO paint up other stuff, because it's cool. But guess what? One week later, I hane no more Nomads or Pan Oceana models left tomworkmon, somtjeynget stuffed onto a display case and I forget about them until some new release.

You're a wargamer.

You're not a warhammerer, you're not a deadzoner, you're not an infinityite.

Deadzone isn't a hobby any more than 40K is.

Assuming you are ploughing through models at the rate you suggest, you are really going to have to accept you're a significant outlier and adjust your arguments accordingly because basing them on your own position when you surely must see it is so unusual undermines the credibility of your points somewhat.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Nor should you, but the trouble is in this, and pretty much every other thread I've seen come to think of it, discussion, that's what Talys' argument boils down to. "I'm fine with this because I have plenty of money/play in gaming utopia with the bestest wargamers ever/really like it therefore there's no problem" is the nutshell of most every stance in every discussion I've seen.

While this is fine, after all of something that isn't affecting you is always going to have less impact, it does betray a lack of empathy for people who don't necessarily occupy the same position. While I wouldn't say it trivialises other people's arguments, it certainly minimises them, and does stretch credulity a little.

Hey Az, I have said in practically every thread that (a) GW is an expensive hobby and (b) 40k isn't for everyone. It's not lacking empathy to say that a game which requires a minimum 10x8 space to play, tons of storage and diffiucult transportation, and easily a hundred models a side costing a thousand dollars and taking anywhere up to hundreds or even thousands of hours (years, for some people) to build and paint is not for everyone.

Incidentally, a lack of funds was pretty much why I started stepping up my game in terms of painting. I found out pretty quickly when I was a student that the hobby is a whole lot cheaper if you're spending 20 hours on a (back then) $1 model, and everyone goes "wow" when the see it. When I got older, had more money, and eventually, had more time, what I wanted was a hobby that has more potential than, "build paint play" -- that is what I'm saying that 40k is.

 MWHistorian wrote:


Like this?
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dreamforge-games

Dreamforge is definitely getting there! Give it a decade or two, it will be exciting. At the moment, the problem with DF is that there just aren't enough models, even if you totally love the aesthetic and models (which isn't quite the case for me, but as their collection grows, I'm sure I will invest in it). In the meantime, I'm happy to buy the odd box from them to support them and to do something different here and there.

Azreal13 wrote:

Nor should you, but the trouble is in this, and pretty much every other thread I've seen come to think of it, discussion, that's what Talys' argument boils down to. "I'm fine with this because I have plenty of money/play in gaming utopia with the bestest wargamers ever/really like it therefore there's no problem" is the nutshell of most every stance in every discussion I've seen.

While this is fine, after all of something that isn't affecting you is always going to have less impact, it does betray a lack of empathy for people who don't necessarily occupy the same position. While I wouldn't say it trivialises other people's arguments, it certainly minimises them, and does stretch credulity a little.

A good point. Its all fine and well for Talys that GW's prices are seen as reasonable given the factors that Talys puts emphasis on, but the prices are rather borked given the competition. Plus, when you look outside of plastic, there are also a number of boutique resin shops that do some mega high quality work.

Then again, I generally enjoy resin, but that may be because resin was the first hobby material I ever worked with.

Talys wrote:

This would make me very happy! Ask the universe, perhaps it shall deliver

Here's hoping anyways. I'm currently spending most of my money at one small shop, but I keep an eye out for other companies.

It isn't JUST the collections, by the way. GW/FW release new stuff at a dizzying rate to those 'less invested' in terms of time. But if you are really into a couple of factions, even GW's release rate feels slow, because I'm always itching to add more to my favorite factions.

GW's release rate can be rather deceptive though. Outside the recent Ad Mech/Harlies, most releases prior consisted of a model update, a new kit, and a bunch of rules. Spartan Games has been releasing a few new models for every faction for one of their games once a month for over a year now.

But yes, it does feel slow when you only play one or two armies and wait around for your turn on the merry-go-round.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Assuming you are ploughing through models at the rate you suggest, you are really going to have to accept you're a significant outlier and adjust your arguments accordingly because basing them on your own position when you surely must see it is so unusual undermines the credibility of your points somewhat.

/shrug -- you can check my gallery and get an idea of my output. It's about 1/3 to 1/4 of what I paint (I don't photograph everything.. nobody wants to see the other 69 tactical marines and another 8 rhinos). The thing is, the more you paint, the faster you get. Eventually, you can put out some pretty nice looking stuff without spending a whole lot of time. I like to spend about 3 hours a night on weekdays, a little more on weekends on hobby -- that makes it what, 20 hours a week? I don't think that's spectacularly high. Of coruse, there are times when I'm really involved in a project, and I spend more than that, and other times when there's a cool video game or something else, when I spend a lot less. Eb and flow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
A good point. Its all fine and well for Talys that GW's prices are seen as reasonable given the factors that Talys puts emphasis on, but the prices are rather borked given the competition. Plus, when you look outside of plastic, there are also a number of boutique resin shops that do some mega high quality work.

Then again, I generally enjoy resin, but that may be because resin was the first hobby material I ever worked with.

Yeah, I get it. However, I contend there are a lot of people who enjoy the **hobby** aspect of it, and if you are spending many hours each a model, as opposed to trying to get a piece done as quickly as possible to game with it, the cost of the hobby is not nearly so high compared to the time you spend in it.

Relative to other companies: YES other companies produce cheaper stuff. I've never said otherwise. If they produce stuff you like too, and the collection is sufficient to keep you busy for your time... WIN!

 Blacksails wrote:

But yes, it does feel slow when you only play one or two armies and wait around for your turn on the merry-go-round.

Sisters... of... Battle.

 Talys wrote:


(a) GW is an expensive hobby

GW is not a hobby. It is a game. An expensive game, but a game nonetheless.

(b) 40k isn't for everyone.

But it could be. Pricing, entry barriers, and confusing rules are all simple fixes that would make it infinitely more accessible to everyone.

requires a minimum 10x8 space to play

Which are readily available nearly everywhere. Whether its in your or a friend's garage or basement, or the local community center, or university, or FLGS/GW, the options exist, are plentiful, and either free or cheap.

tons of storage

Depending on your army size or game played. My army can fit in a BF432(423? some arrangement of those numbers) and the rest of my spaceships fit in a small toolbox.

diffiucult transportation

Given the options for carrying cases and storage solutions its really not bad. Terrain can be an issue, but given a FLGS in the area, that becomes a non-issue. Same goes for a friends basement.

easily a hundred models a side

Game dependent and point size played. Easily much smaller.

costing a thousand dollars

Game dependent and point size played. Easily much cheaper.

taking anywhere up to hundreds or even thousands of hours (years, for some people) to build and paint is not for everyone.

Now this we can agree on, but such is wargaming. Some are fast and motivated, others are slow and lazy (like me!)

Point being, 40k is easily adapted to almost anyone's needs and resources, and could certainly be improved for everyone. Further, wargaming in general is even more accessible.

 Blacksails wrote:

GW is not a hobby. It is a game. An expensive game, but a game nonetheless.

GW may disagree with you. First page of content in the BRB says: "At its heart, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is a shared experience between fellow hobbyists."

 Blacksails wrote:

Given the options for carrying cases and storage solutions its really not bad. Terrain can be an issue, but given a FLGS in the area, that becomes a non-issue. Same goes for a friends basement.

Some models, like Dark Eldar Raiders and Imperial Knights are just not made for easy transportation. I don't know how often I've broken something just getting it from point A to B, on the fragile models. It's one of the things I hate most about 40k as a game (taking models from one place to another), to be frank. The time it takes to pack those big, delicate models is high, too.

This is why my friends all play in my basement, where I give them ample storage to keep their difficult-to-transport models, should they choose -- but of course, not everyone has this option. Also, a lot of stores have tables that are smaller than 6x4 (like, a 6' x 30" folding table, or 4x4 tables), which is really not a great experience for 40k. And, as you say, if you like nice terrain, that's a real pain moving around. Game tiles are easy, but especially buildings, are tough.

In general, though, a lot of people in this city, especially younger ones, bike or take transit. In such cases, most 1850 point (nevermind 2k or 3k) 40k armies are a problem to transport, whereas, for instance, a WMH army of any typically played size is not.

 Blacksails wrote:

Point being, 40k is easily adapted to almost anyone's needs and resources, and could certainly be improved for everyone. Further, wargaming in general is even more accessible.

Without going through each of your points, yes, you're right, and the game is what you make of it. Of course, you can just play with Dark Vengeance primed black and be happy with that. It could be a more accessible game/hobby in terms of price (and I would be happy if it were). None of this, really, was my point though -- I was just saying, if you want a game where the gaming pieces are more like tokens than models that were lovingly crafted, **in my opinion** there are other games that are a better choice. I know lots of people who don't like 40k, because they have no interest in fiddling with 8 pieces of plastic and a base to build each basic troop, when with another game, they can just take each miniature, plunk it into a base, and play.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Except I have marines from before this kit so the extra options, bits and arms enable me to equip other models as well.

Then again I am sure there are people who build the exact models and then throw the rest of the bits out. That must be who is constantly complaining when something changes in efficiency!!!

You managed to miss the point completely.

Twice.

I'm impressed.

O no, I got the point it just doesn't make sense to me from my experiences. I have been saved many a time from having to get more stuff from my extensive bits box. The stern guard kit alone has been a huge bonus for magnetizing my tactical a, the vanguard was great for magnetizing any marine CC unit. So on and so forth.

What pushed the sarcasm factor up is that people are arguing opinion as fact which gets annoying after awhile.

The hobby is Wargaming; GW are part of that hobby, as much as they might like to think otherwise.

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

GW is not a hobby. It is a game. An expensive game, but a game nonetheless.

GW may disagree with you. First page of content in the BRB says: "At its heart, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is a shared experience between fellow hobbyists."

Well of course they would. They've said to a judge, under oath, the "GW Hobby" is buying Games Workshop models.

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

GW is not a hobby. It is a game. An expensive game, but a game nonetheless.

GW may disagree with you. First page of content in the BRB says: "At its heart, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is a shared experience between fellow hobbyists."

That in no way says that 40k is a hobby, just that hobbyists will play it.
Table Top Wargaming is the hobby. 40k is just a shrinking part of it.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The hobby is Wargaming; GW are part of that hobby, as much as they might like to think otherwise.

I like to think of 40k and miniature wargaming in general as two distinct experiences:

1. The hobby of modeling and painting miniatures, and
2. The game of playing those miniatures with others

There are actually a lot of people who don't play the game at all (or once, they did, but no longer), just as there are a lot of people who only do the minimum amount necessary to play their game pieces -- last year, I saw a bunch of people frantically trying to paint up 1850 points of Space Wolves in 1 week to make it in time for a tournament... that is not a "hobby" in any sense of the word, in my mind

 Talys wrote:


GW may disagree with you. First page of content in the BRB says: "At its heart, a game of Warhammer 40,000 is a shared experience between fellow hobbyists."

It doesn't matter what GW says. 40k is a game that happens to be a wargame. It is not, in any way shape or form, its own hobby distinct from wargaming, nor a niche subset of wargaming. Its just one of dozens of settings and rulesets available.

Some models, like Dark Eldar Raiders and Imperial Knights are just not made for easy transportation. I don't know how often I've broken something just getting it from point A to B, on the fragile models. It's one of the things I hate most about 40k as a game (taking models from one place to another), to be frank. The time it takes to pack those big, delicate models is high, too.

This is why my friends all play in my basement, where I give them ample storage to keep their difficult-to-transport models, should they choose -- but of course, not everyone has this option.

Certainly, some models are more difficult. All of my old chimeras had all of their antennas broken off because I couldn't come up with a reasonable storge solution at the time. My almost entirely foot Guard at the moment stores super easy in a single BF bag. Knights and finicky kits like Dark Eldar a little problematic, but if you have the money, BF and other custom bags are available, or simple tupperware and foam, or strong magnets and a toolbox (and some care not to be violent with it) will do for some of those models. Its how friends of mine moved around their Imperial BFG fleets, which are pretty finicky and ungainly.

I have a budding RPG group in the making, and it looks like I'll be the storage and printer for all materials, which works out fine seeing as I have the largest basement, and plenty of space to put everything.

Without going through each of your points, yes, you're right, and the game is what you make of it. Of course, you can just play with Dark Vengeance primed black and be happy with that. It could be a more accessible game/hobby in terms of price (and I would be happy if it were). None of this, really, was my point though -- I was just saying, if you want a game where the gaming pieces are more like tokens than models that were lovingly crafted, **in my opinion** there are other games that are a better choice. I know lots of people who don't like 40k, because they have no interest in fiddling with 8 pieces of plastic and a base to build each basic troop, when with another game, they can just take each miniature, plunk it into a base, and play.

If people are treating the gaming pieces as tokens, they're just not interested in the hobby aspect, that's all. They may still enjoy wargaming, as options exist in other games for pre-painted, or just using tokens. FFG's X-wing springs to mind as an example of the former. I intend to show my friends X-wing, seeing as they like the RPG a lot.

My point has, and always will be, that GW's prices are not representative of their quality or technical ability. They're overpriced and should be lower. That's all.

 Talys wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The hobby is Wargaming; GW are part of that hobby, as much as they might like to think otherwise.

I like to think of 40k and miniature wargaming in general as two distinct experiences:

1. The hobby of modeling and painting miniatures, and
2. The game of playing those miniatures with others

There are actually a lot of people who don't play the game at all (or once, they did, but no longer), just as there are a lot of people who only do the minimum amount necessary to play their game pieces -- last year, I saw a bunch of people frantically trying to paint up 1850 points of Space Wolves in 1 week to make it in time for a tournament... that is not a "hobby" in any sense of the word, in my mind

Not the point I was making; GW are not their own hobby seperate from the rest of the Wargaming hobby.

Yeah, fair enough. Anyhow, I was just making the point that the modelling aspect of 40k can (and should) be separated out from the gaming aspect, because although they often appeal to the same people, that's not always the case, and they are very different in nature.

Personally, when I think of "hobby" I think more of the modelling part of it, than rolling dice with friends. For example, I do not consider playing D&D a hobby

Why though? It is a hobby.

I'm still waiting to hear how WM/H is more expensive than 40k on a per model basis (I'm ignoring all the rules and extraneous cost of 40k).

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why though? It is a hobby.

Well, It's not "D&D-ing" it's roleplaying.

Just like 40k is part of the wargaming hobby.

 Chute82 wrote:
Paints will be going up 25 cents a pot
Hobby tools 3~10% up in price
Glue up 35 cents
Spray paints up $1.25 a can
Aegis defense line will be $37
Realm of battle board going up to $330
Realm of battle board imperalis $363 June 1st

This is accoriding to my flgs

Who the hell in their right mind chooses GW paints?

You can buy paint and tools of the same quality for a third the price.