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So I know this has been debated before (but I couldn't find anything on it on this forum though) but I was wondering what you guys thought about this.

Snikrot has a special rule called Ambush. It allows him and his unt to come in on any board edge when they come in from reserve. They are not outflanking, they are in reserve normally, all this rule does is change where they come in.

ICs don't get special rules from units, but this particular rule doesn't seem to be "given" to the unit. Since it says "his unit", and ICs are technically considered part of the unit they are in, it makes sense that you could attach one to this unit and bring them in.

By RAW, I'd say yes. By RAI, maybe not, (since Ghazghull showing up from behind without you noticing doesn't really make much sense) but it could be possible.

What do you think?

Yes, an IC can Ambush with the kommandos.

I will say that a lot of players don't like the idea that it can happen, but it is completely legal.

It's perfectly legal, ambush is not a special rule of the kommando unit (and hence isn't lost when the IC joins) it's a special rule conferred by snikrot onto the entire unit he's with (which includes any ICs).

Even the INAT recently reversed their lame decision to disallow it, so there's really no excuse for anyone to throw a fit aside from 'fluff' or 'balance' reasons. Ambush away.

Snikrot can drag along IC friends, just make sure that you follow the movement rules fully for IC leaving units. Not able to look it up atm, but iirc there is a requirement that the IC cannot leave snikrot's unit the turn that they arrive from reserves. This limits the initial assault abilities of the IC a bit. (Take this with a grain of salt until I either get home or until someone else confirms)



Sliggoth

Just because INAT says so this has no baring on the official rules. INAT is simply a well written set of house rules.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Just because INAT says so this has no baring on the official rules. INAT is simply a well written set of house rules.

G

Which has nothing to do with anything.
How does pointing out that the official rules allow it and that the INAT now specifically also allows it weaken the case at all?

I'll have to read the ork codex to answer that. This looks like a loop hole to me. Once I have the codex then I can say for certain.

G

strictly RAW, it is not allowed.

here is why.

snickrot says the unit gains this ambush special ability. Before deployment, an IC cannot be joined with the unit. (read the section on starting IC's attached to units... it says to do this, you need to deploy in coherency with them). Because you cannot join an IC to the unit until the deployment phase, you can't join an IC to the unit until snikrot is already on the board. Because of that, after snikrot is on the board, you can't put the IC in coherency, because he doesn't have the same rule for ambushing. Hence, you can't use ambush with snikrot.

Note that for this same reasoning, shrike's ability to infiltrate a unit means nothing, because he can't join the unit until after deployment, so the unit cannot infiltrate with him.

This is a RAW judgement and does not reflect how I play or think the game should be played. I'm staying out of this one. I'm just telling you how the rules are written.

Honersstodnt wrote:
snickrot says the unit gains this ambush special ability. Before deployment, an IC cannot be joined with the unit. (read the section on starting IC's attached to units... it says to do this, you need to deploy in coherency with them).

These things are incorrect/irrelevant.

Snikrot does not confer the ambush special rule or ability to anyone. It is his special rule alone, it just affects the entire unit.
Also, try reading the section on joining ICs to units in reserve on page 94. And rereading the ambush rule, as you appear to be confused about how/when it works.

Shrike doesn't work for an entirely different reason, to do with deploying in coherency as you mentioned... nothing to do with reserves or ambush.
You're wrong, quite simply. Ambush works fine with ICs by RAW.

Sliggoth wrote:Snikrot can drag along IC friends, just make sure that you follow the movement rules fully for IC leaving units. Not able to look it up atm, but iirc there is a requirement that the IC cannot leave snikrot's unit the turn that they arrive from reserves. This limits the initial assault abilities of the IC a bit. (Take this with a grain of salt until I either get home or until someone else confirms)



Sliggoth

This is correct. Sadly you can't take a warboss biker and get him to assault out of the squad. You can take ghaz and then get your 6" waaagh (assuming you play waaagh that way) and have a threat range of 7-18".

Black Blow Fly wrote:Just because INAT says so this has no baring on the official rules. INAT is simply a well written set of house rules.

G

You do know the INAT Actually says you can do this?

ORK.62C.01 – Q: Can an Independent Character (such as a Warboss on a bike) join Snikrot‟s unit before the game and arrive with them via "Ambush"?
A: Yes, as Snikrot‟s ability applies to the unit (which a joined IC is part of) [clarification].

Of course, it's a "Clarification" rather than RAW, but that's not a surprise.

By the stricted reading of RAW possible it is 100% legit to attach ics to snikrots unit.

The inat ruling is a clarification of raw .... something being a clarification doesn't immediately preclude it being raw ... that would be a rules change. Clarifying a rule does not alter it. Note that im not saying inats clarifications are always as such, half the time they are complete rules changes, but this isntance is raw.

Oddly enough, I don't think Ghazghull even needs to be on the board for you to call his Waaagh!

Although I don't see why you wouldn't wait for him to show up anyway since he can't leave the unit when they first show up, and he's slow and purposeful.

RAW: Yes

I will try this next game with my orks just to see how it works.


I will tell you, it will likely only ever work once. you will risk not getting a charge off due to Slow and Purposful, but being able to choose where you come on will help.

you can be sure that your enemy will be wary from that day forth when he realises you can do this.

it does give a, very nice, PK to the Kommandos that they otherise couldn't have(Snikrot replacing the Nob)

It really cant some as much of a surprise either, since the IC needs to be assigned to the unit at the start of the game. So your opponent will know that the IC is being attached to snikrot's unit--- and its pretty clear whats going to happen later when they arrive.



Sliggoth

Grey Templar wrote:RAW: Yes

I will try this next game with my orks just to see how it works.


I will tell you, it will likely only ever work once. you will risk not getting a charge off due to Slow and Purposful, but being able to choose where you come on will help.

you can be sure that your enemy will be wary from that day forth when he realises you can do this.

it does give a, very nice, PK to the Kommandos that they otherise couldn't have(Snikrot replacing the Nob)

On the plus side, Thrakka has move through cover, as do the Kommandos, so that helps with the SAP.

Snikkyd, ghazghkull doesnt even need to be alive to call his special waaagh, taking ghaz replaces the normal waaagh withh his, it doesnt revert back if he dies or is off the board.

Yea, its legal. When people use Ghaz, its incredibly beardy and alot (including myself) think its too OTT. But Id use it in a tourny for sure. Id also have no problems using that trick with a normal warboss in any form.


And KDS is correct on the Ghaz WAAGH! rule. alive, dead, there or not, it works. Plain and simple. That part that says "his replaces the normal WAAAGH!, this one is better" replaces the normal WAAAGH!

The only problem I'm having though is with fluff.

Seriously, how does Ghazghull sneak behind like that? Snikrot is from Armegeddon, so I'm sure there's some explanation, but I really can't think of anything, barring them teleporting down or something. But that seems to defeat the purpose of Kommandoes.

Well, if you're looking for a fluff explanation, i suggest you leave the rules forum; which has nothing to do with fluff, and head over to 40k background and start a post ...

Well, I guess that's true. To the background forum!

Gorkamorka wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:
snickrot says the unit gains this ambush special ability. Before deployment, an IC cannot be joined with the unit. (read the section on starting IC's attached to units... it says to do this, you need to deploy in coherency with them).

These things are incorrect/irrelevant.

Snikrot does not confer the ambush special rule or ability to anyone. It is his special rule alone, it just affects the entire unit.
Also, try reading the section on joining ICs to units in reserve on page 94. And rereading the ambush rule, as you appear to be confused about how/when it works.

Shrike doesn't work for an entirely different reason, to do with deploying in coherency as you mentioned... nothing to do with reserves or ambush.

I'm confused about what you two are talking about in regards to Shrike. Shrike works the same way that Snikrot does (he doesn't confer Infiltrate to an IC, they're simply affected by See, But Remain Unseen. In fact, nothing is "conferred" to anyone), and the INAT changed their ruling on him to reflect that as well.

If you're talking about his deployment and infiltrators (which is a different argument, as Gorka pointed out), then that's an entirely different debate that I won't bring up in this thread.

Because shrike grants a USR, which is lost if an IC without it joins the unit.

There is nothing conferred by snikrot, his unit is only along for the ride, further its not a USR either, its his own special rule.

completely different situation.

Edit: ok he doesnt "Grant" the USR, however if an ic without a *USR joins a unit that has a *USR that rule is lost, period, they have infiltrate, which is a usr. So when calgar attaches, he doesnt have it, so the entire squad loses it.

kill dem stunties wrote:Because shrike grants a USR, which is lost if an IC without it joins the unit.

There is nothing conferred by snikrot, his unit is only along for the ride, further its not a USR either, its his own special rule.

completely different situation.

Again, no he doesn't. He doesn't "confer" anything. Conferring means that you have a special rule and that an IC gets the special rule once they join a unit. Shrike has a special rule. He does not confer "See, But Remain Unseen" onto anyone. His special rule affects him and him alone. The special rule simply says that any models in his unit may Infiltrate. The attached IC is a member of his unit as soon as it joins his unit. They also do not have "Infiltrate" conferred upon them, nor do thay have "See, But Remain Unseen" conferred upon them. They are being affected by Shrike's special rule.

It is the entire reason that INAT changed the ruling on Shrike as well.

Read what i just edited.

kill dem stunties wrote:Read what i just edited.

You're missing the point. No one in the unit has the Infiltrate USR. Everyone in the unit is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen" which, in turn, gives everyone in the unit Infiltrate. Neither Infiltrate, nor See, But Remain Unseen are being conferred.

You cannot benefit from something you do not have.

kill dem stunties wrote:You cannot benefit from something you do not have.

What are you talking about? When an IC that doesn't have infiltrate joins Shrike's unit, he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", which is Shrike's special rule. He is a member of the unit, therefore he is affected by the rule. He doesn't remove "Infiltrate" because there is no one in the unit that has the Infiltrate USR. They are being affected by a rule that gives them infiltrate, just like the IC. As soon as the IC becomes a part of the unit, he gains Infiltrate, not because of a rule being conferred upon him, but because he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", just like any other model that joins Shrike's "unit".

Your hung up on the fact that there is a USR involved. It would matter if Shrike actually had Infiltrate and then an IC joined him. That IC wouldn't be able to Infiltrate. But that's not what's happening here. There is a blanket ability affecting anyone who joins Shrike's unit. The ability gives a USR. This isn't the same as having a USR conferred upon you.

Again, it's the entire reason the INAT changed its ruling on Shrike, just as it did on Snikrot.

Edit: It's just like a Narthecium. A Narthecium doesn't confer "Feel no Pain" on an attached IC. Instead, the attached IC is affected by a piece of wargear which gives them the USR. They're not having a USR conferred upon them. This is the same situation. And, is the same situation as Snikrot. Instead of it being a piece of wargear, it is a model's special rule. Stop thinking of it as a USR and think of it as a special rule that gives a USR, just like a Narthecium.

this is why I love INAT. it eliminates my need to think about complex rules dilemas like this.

the rule is XXXXXXX. why? BECAUSE INAT SAYS SO. DEAL.

yea, they get things wrong. but i'll take all those wrong answers before I have to think about this stuff myself.

puma713 wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:You cannot benefit from something you do not have.

What are you talking about? When an IC that doesn't have infiltrate joins Shrike's unit, he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", which is Shrike's special rule. He is a member of the unit, therefore he is affected by the rule. He doesn't remove "Infiltrate" because there is no one in the unit that has the Infiltrate USR. They are being affected by a rule that gives them infiltrate, just like the IC. As soon as the IC becomes a part of the unit, he gains Infiltrate, not because of a rule being conferred upon him, but because he is subject to "See, But Remain Unseen", just like any other model that joins Shrike's "unit".

Your hung up on the fact that there is a USR involved. It would matter if Shrike actually had Infiltrate and then an IC joined him. That IC wouldn't be able to Infiltrate. But that's not what's happening here. There is a blanket ability affecting anyone who joins Shrike's unit. The ability gives a USR. This isn't the same as having a USR conferred upon you.

Again, it's the entire reason the INAT changed its ruling on Shrike, just as it did on Snikrot.

The problem with Shrike, as I understand it (going from memory without either rule in front of me), has to do with deployment order.
You can't join an IC to a unit at deployment without deploying them in coherency... they aren't joined until that point. So either you place shrike as an infiltrator and are stuck with a unit without his rule that can't deploy by him, or you place the unit without infiltrate then deploy the IC with them in their bad position. It's a very strict raw hardline though, and makes his rule essentially worthless (sans reserves, I suppose), so most people ignore it.

This has nothing to do with Snikrot, who can absolutely be joined by an IC in reserves before ambushing.