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2015/06/29 13:23:41
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
I kept asking about that before the PM closed, as I was reluctant to pay for Abyssals sight unseen. Nobody had a definite answer and I couldn't find anything official in Mantic's posts. I think it was just a common assumption based on previous KS.
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2015/06/29 13:44:51
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
You'd have to wade back thru all the comments I think from them on the KS itself. But yeah, I was under the impression it would re-open again once the new plastics were actually available to see. Oh well, saved me a ton of cash.
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2015/06/29 18:51:13
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
So yeah, get cranking on the KS shipments, the new free digital rules and the alternative-manufacturer army lists Mantic, the door just opened wide enough to drive six AB Quads through ranked up like heavy cavalry
Seems like a bit of a ball drop in terms of the PM and the non-shipping in that case. They'd really have benefited by having more of an enthusiastic, thriving gameplay community right now. (Not after they get around to shipping)
time to sell them specific new minis is later when the rules have hooked them (if Mantic believe in their rules)
I agree with you there. It's a missed opportunity in terms of having X more dedicated and enthusiastic KoW players with armies built and keen to play and bring others in right now, as opposed to in 2-4 months.
To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
(but I suspect they found their Chinese factories could not do another run for them to make all the new stuff to sell to the KS backers in the right time frame, and sending out the warehoused stuff ouwld have left them with none for retail (and maybe even then not bale to fulfil all the KS orders, so better to delay the whole lot)
2015/07/01 02:54:03
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
This situation can seriously be a golden opportunity for Mantic and ex-fantasy players both, if done properly. I do strongly desire my marks of chaos to make a switch over though. I wouldn't be happy if we just got Chaos Undivided. That would feel like a partial fix. These are the guys who helped create chaos. They should know what they're doing to keep it going.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
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Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2015/07/01 05:06:11
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Sure, but it's still quite different to what they said they'd do when they were asking for money in the KS. These weren't figures that needed to be sculpted, etc after all.
I'm just looking at it here, and I think re-opening the PM (which I don't think was promised) would be really bad timing. The Abyssal retail release is in what...five months, maybe less? I believe the month after the KS Abyssals are sent, anyway.
So selling a bunch more of it via KS would kill that dead. Very dead.
2015/07/01 07:20:22
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Lol. They are sitting basically a few blocks down from GW, are mostly made up of ex-GW employees, draw on the same pool of freelance artists, writers, etc.. They kickstarted Kings of War 2nd last winter when End Times (and thus the End of Warhammer) was announced (Spanish Rumours about the End of Warhammer were out in May 2014), specifically with some phoney explanation that the "community wanted the project to be pulled forward", even though they previously said a 2nd Edition wouldn't be done till 2016 or 2017. They also pushed back Deadzone Infestation just for that.
Like hell they knew. Maybe not all details, but they know there'd be customers to grab during/after End Times (and everyone's better off they did).
s I said last time, pushing Deadzone back has implications for Kings of War – there are already a couple of the campaign books (with army lists and rules in them) that are out of print and this is causing concern (rightly so). These have been OOP for a while. I have a number of European (and South American!) distributors all very keen on translating Kings of War into their own language. I don’t really want them to translate the old version, only to see it superseded within a few months – and I am not sure you’d be ok with the translations being the new version and you still being over a year away from print!
We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well. If the Kickstarter goes after Deadzone it will not come in before the end of 2015 and I think that’s just too late.
Alessio and a team of KoW fanatics have been working for the last 3 months on updating the rules. By combining a refreshed rule set with a far more complete background and all the army lists – updated with new units and rebalanced – then putting all of it in one book and I think and we have the foundations of a fantastic 2nd edition.
Big Armies, Big Battles
I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.
So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.
I think it also undervalues just how much Kickstarter brings to the party. Over ½ the money we raise in any campaign now comes from people who have never backed a Mantic kickstarter before. I think there are a growing number of gamers in the world who are looking for a reasonably priced, well-made, fantasy Tabletop war game. We have that in KoW, but from the discussions I’ve had everyone who plays it thinks the rulebook needs both a freshen up, and for everything to be in one place. I think it also needs some publicity – a well-run campaign that raises its modest funding goal and goes past it, and allows us to get a new edition out in 2015 in 4 languages will do that.
That said, I am aware it is coming up to the time of year when our hobby money goes elsewhere, and while the argument for a Kickstarter is overwhelming, that doesn’t help the wallet!
We’ll have a low buy in pledge. It will get you a hard cover book, with rules, lots of background about the world and the armies and updated army lists. This would be a limited edition print. You also get the battle book – a soft cover book (it will come with just the army lists and rules) for taking with you to games nights and tournaments. If you just want the book, or to pay after Christmas just drop in a dollar and pick up what you want in the survey. Finally I would open a pledge for new players that gives them the rules pledge and an army to get going with it would also be a handy way for existing players the opportunity to start a new army, (or an Abyssal one )
The funding goal would be relatively low for just the book and we would only open the kickstarter for a couple of weeks, but we’d leave the pledge manager open well into the new year so everyone has as long as they need to get themselves sorted – and we’d use that time to keep the total going up and use the funds for tooling new miniatures if we overshoot the goal.
This means you get the new 2nd Edition Hardback Kings of War rulebook printed and into your hands mid-2015. Mantic will have 3 months focusing on this game, with the new rules, ahead of the release of Dungeon Saga too. And as always any funds we raise goes directly in to making the Kings of War universe better, through more background and new miniatures. The translated versions will be using the same rules as the English version, allowing international tournaments and cross border play from the outset. It also cleans up the printed range and puts everything in one place!
And IF you want it, and by that I mean if you run around with your arms above your head yelling ‘more, I want more’ and we sprint past the funding level we need for the book and some cool extra bits then I will use the extra funds to fill in some of the gaps in the existing armies and to tool the Abyssal army for Kings of War (which we’ve already sculpted most of). We would still keep the pledge manager open so you could add them on anytime too.
We intend to start the campaign next week and end it right at the start of December – as you can see it is a mini-kick in every sense of the word!
Let us have your ideas for what we should add to the plan below and we will try and get them made!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 07:21:50
2015/07/01 08:13:03
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Point accepted about clearer communication during the campaign, I am not defending them on that. Mantic are gak for communication and often seem a bit furtive about things, like they lack confidence in their product (sometimes with good bloody reason, KOW KS1!).
They probably did know something was coming, but I doubt they knew in enough detail to plan their production and release down to a tee.
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Lol. They are sitting basically a few blocks down from GW, are mostly made up of ex-GW employees, draw on the same pool of freelance artists, writers, etc.. They kickstarted Kings of War 2nd last winter when End Times (and thus the End of Warhammer) was announced (Spanish Rumours about the End of Warhammer were out in May 2014), specifically with some phoney explanation that the "community wanted the project to be pulled forward", even though they previously said a 2nd Edition wouldn't be done till 2016 or 2017. They also pushed back Deadzone Infestation just for that.
Like hell they knew. Maybe not all details, but they know there'd be customers to grab during/after End Times (and everyone's better off they did).
s I said last time, pushing Deadzone back has implications for Kings of War – there are already a couple of the campaign books (with army lists and rules in them) that are out of print and this is causing concern (rightly so). These have been OOP for a while. I have a number of European (and South American!) distributors all very keen on translating Kings of War into their own language. I don’t really want them to translate the old version, only to see it superseded within a few months – and I am not sure you’d be ok with the translations being the new version and you still being over a year away from print!
We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well. If the Kickstarter goes after Deadzone it will not come in before the end of 2015 and I think that’s just too late.
Alessio and a team of KoW fanatics have been working for the last 3 months on updating the rules. By combining a refreshed rule set with a far more complete background and all the army lists – updated with new units and rebalanced – then putting all of it in one book and I think and we have the foundations of a fantastic 2nd edition.
Big Armies, Big Battles
I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.
So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.
I think it also undervalues just how much Kickstarter brings to the party. Over ½ the money we raise in any campaign now comes from people who have never backed a Mantic kickstarter before. I think there are a growing number of gamers in the world who are looking for a reasonably priced, well-made, fantasy Tabletop war game. We have that in KoW, but from the discussions I’ve had everyone who plays it thinks the rulebook needs both a freshen up, and for everything to be in one place. I think it also needs some publicity – a well-run campaign that raises its modest funding goal and goes past it, and allows us to get a new edition out in 2015 in 4 languages will do that.
That said, I am aware it is coming up to the time of year when our hobby money goes elsewhere, and while the argument for a Kickstarter is overwhelming, that doesn’t help the wallet!
We’ll have a low buy in pledge. It will get you a hard cover book, with rules, lots of background about the world and the armies and updated army lists. This would be a limited edition print. You also get the battle book – a soft cover book (it will come with just the army lists and rules) for taking with you to games nights and tournaments. If you just want the book, or to pay after Christmas just drop in a dollar and pick up what you want in the survey. Finally I would open a pledge for new players that gives them the rules pledge and an army to get going with it would also be a handy way for existing players the opportunity to start a new army, (or an Abyssal one )
The funding goal would be relatively low for just the book and we would only open the kickstarter for a couple of weeks, but we’d leave the pledge manager open well into the new year so everyone has as long as they need to get themselves sorted – and we’d use that time to keep the total going up and use the funds for tooling new miniatures if we overshoot the goal.
This means you get the new 2nd Edition Hardback Kings of War rulebook printed and into your hands mid-2015. Mantic will have 3 months focusing on this game, with the new rules, ahead of the release of Dungeon Saga too. And as always any funds we raise goes directly in to making the Kings of War universe better, through more background and new miniatures. The translated versions will be using the same rules as the English version, allowing international tournaments and cross border play from the outset. It also cleans up the printed range and puts everything in one place!
And IF you want it, and by that I mean if you run around with your arms above your head yelling ‘more, I want more’ and we sprint past the funding level we need for the book and some cool extra bits then I will use the extra funds to fill in some of the gaps in the existing armies and to tool the Abyssal army for Kings of War (which we’ve already sculpted most of). We would still keep the pledge manager open so you could add them on anytime too.
We intend to start the campaign next week and end it right at the start of December – as you can see it is a mini-kick in every sense of the word!
Let us have your ideas for what we should add to the plan below and we will try and get them made!
End times wasn't the sole reason for doing 2nd ed. I don't know how much of an influence it was, but both the RC and Alessio approached Mantic separately asking to do a full 2nd edition because the 1st was starting to show some cracks. Event attendance last year was down considerably and one of the main reasons people were quoting was balance, or a lack thereof. In the end we could either get dragged into an arms race with codex creep, introducing hard counters to the overpowered units etc, but that's definitely not a road we wanted to go down. We had been working on 2nd ed for several months before it was publicly announced and End Times had barely kicked off.
Obviously Ronnie could well have been privy to some inside info about end times but it's possible that it may have been too early even for AoS to be a concept, let alone something that he would have been aware of. I know that he knew the Lizardmen getting squatted rumour was junk, but I really don't think End Times played as big a role in the decision to do 2nd ed as you think - it's just the timing has worked out quite well for Mantic.
2015/07/01 08:54:33
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Twilight Kin are going to be redesigned/reworked presumably to not just be not-Dark-Elves-honest-guv.
I think they get a get-you-by list in with the not-WHF stuff, but with a big disclaimer that using it is at your own risk and not a commitment to the future unit selection.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
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Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
2015/07/01 11:23:53
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Not to mention that they will get the printed copies back end of July for a beginning of August start to shipping wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow GW lead and just forget points and balancing, too much trouble to get right
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
2015/07/03 19:24:28
Subject: Re:[Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Theophony wrote: Not to mention that they will get the printed copies back end of July for a beginning of August start to shipping wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow GW lead and just forget points and balancing, too much trouble to get right
The *slight* delay wasn't because of the rules. Don't get me wrong, the Rules Committee were glad to get the extra beta time, but that wasn't a factor in what went on. The KS should start shipping in July, but may bleed over into August.
2015/07/03 20:49:14
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
Can I say how much I LOVE seeing this release on the 10th?
As I said on Facebook, Mantic will be releasing their own interpretation of a "free" rule set on the same day everyone gets to compare to their new shiny GW one.
Sane gamers will have the easiest head-to-head they have ever imagined. :-p
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2015/07/04 01:43:21
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
As I hope you know Mantic has been giving away the basic rule set for FREE since the game first came out, and this edition is no difference.
However, this time these are going out BEFORE the launch – because we are so confident that if you like mass battle games you’ll love these rules (and for some reason there has been a lot of next requests in the last few days).
July 10th sees the new rules go up for free download. A set will be emailed to you and you will also be entered into a draw to win one of three signed copies of the hardback rule book too – please tell your friends and get them to sign up to the newsletter.
Due to recent huge spike in interest it is looking like the first print will be gone very quickly. Please place a pre-order with your local friendly local gaming store now – or on the Mantic site.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
2015/07/04 01:52:14
Subject: [Kings of War][Dwarf Kings Hold] Mantic Games - Fantasy News & Rumors
)
wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow 
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 