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Che-Vito wrote:
Markerlight Drones can already be put in Fire Warrior squads, as is.

This thread is so big I can't remember if we discussed this but maybe make tau like other armies in 5th where you buy a sergeant and 4 grunts then buy upgrades and additional troops. So you get an included 'el with markerlight and multi-tracker which would allow him to shoot his gun and the marker light.

I know someone mentioned making marker lights assault; that doesn't sound so bad.

Small fix that would go a long way to evening things out without making tau OP. I still like the idea of heavy or special weapon options. Maybe be able to purchase a seeker missile for every 5 men in the unit. Dunno, just throwing out thoughts.

Edit:
meant seeker missile, not smart missile.

Tau don't have enough powerful special weapons on their tanks?

I'm curious; how do Markerlights currently work in Firewarrior squads?

Skinnattittar wrote:Tau don't have enough powerful special weapons on their tanks?

I'm curious; how do Markerlights currently work in Firewarrior squads?

Actually, tank, singular. Hammerhead has two options railgun and ion cannon. I just feel firewarriors are too vanilla, every army's troops have some options at least.

Currently, squads have two ways to access markerlights, you can take an team leader who can purchase an upgrade for his weapon or you can take a drone controller and buy a couple of markerlight drones. So you can potentially have 3 marker lights in a unit but it would cost you 50pts in wargear, not to mention the cost to upgrade to an 'ui.

What about those little buggers, what are they called? The sky-mobiles? (I think they look like a snow-mobile with wings) Don't they have a melta weapon option? And don't act like Railguns with sub-munitions aren't God-guns!

Oh yeah, pirahna but they're fast attack and melt when shot, just like space marine land speeders.

Sub munitions is good but still a little more variety in the army wouldn't hurt. I'd like to see a resculpt of the vespid and make them not suck as much and maybe human auxiliaries or something to break up the monotony of painting everything vomit brown.

It costs 80 points to add three markerlights to a FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.

Kroot Loops wrote:It costs 80 points to add three markerlights to a FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.

Doesn't that also negate cover and allows ana additional D6 or something for armor penetration? As well as access to Markerlights, which the Leman Russ does not.

I have not said Tau vehicles are properly pointed for 5th Edition. They would need to be reasonably adjusted for points.

The Sub-munition round? No, it's just str 6 ap 4, it doesn't ignore cover, it's not barrage, and it's not melta or ordnance. You can use marker lights to reduce cover on a 1 for 1 exchange.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:It costs 80 points to add three markerlights to a FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.

Doesn't that also negate cover and allows ana additional D6 or something for armor penetration? As well as access to Markerlights, which the Leman Russ does not.

I have not said Tau vehicles are properly pointed for 5th Edition. They would need to be reasonably adjusted for points.

Cheapest way to get a submunition and ignore cover..

Hammer head + rail gun + Burst cannons + Disruption pod..if you want to be able to move + multi tracker

165pts

8 pathfinders + mandatory devilfish + disruption pod (who cares if this thing can shoot at this point..) 96+ 85 = 181

165 + 181 = 346pts for a str 6 ap 4 large blast fired at BS 4, with no cover save, assuming you hit average, doesnt have bonuses to cover saves be it through abilities or going to ground.. all you MEQ or better armor out there..dont worry..you still get your saves >.<

*edit* no extra bonus for penetrations

pretty large amount of points invested for minimal rewards... how many russes in 1 squad can you run for 346points?

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

That depends on how you play it. In 5th Ed. all jetpack models are now relentless meaning the marker drones can move and fire their heavy weapon. Though technically by RAW the odler codex supercedes this most people I know play the RAI that the drone can move and shoot now.

ON a side note, Tau can't get 2d6 penetration from anything except fusion blasters.

The piranha vs multi-melta & HF landspeeder sort fo shows the Tau's problems:

Both have BS4

One has a fusion blaster 12" range and 6" for AT, the other a multi-melta, 24" range and 12" for AT.

One has 2 gun drones for 2 x S5 BS2 AP5 pinning shots the other a heavy flamer for template S5 AP4.

One counts as 2 KPs when destroyed the other only counts as 1.

The SM one is better in every possible incidence. far better AT due to range, and better anti-infantry and in annihilation it doesn't cost you 2 KPs.

Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Kroot Loops wrote:Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.

Che-Vito wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit

TopC wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit

Yup!

Che-Vito wrote:

TopC wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit

Yup!

at which point your better off running an HQ squad + targetting arrays...

EL 25 (more than reg suit, this is mandatory so dont factor for at least 1 squad.)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
+targetting array on each bg = 20

total 40points for + 1 bs, instead of 60 =-?

TopC wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

TopC wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:Er, Flingit,

check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit

Yup!

at which point your better off running an HQ squad + targetting arrays...

EL 25 (more than reg suit, this is mandatory so dont factor for at least 1 squad.)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
+targetting array on each bg = 20

total 40points for + 1 bs, instead of 60 =-?

Hey, I never said it was a great option!

It certainly is costly, if you've got a lot of points to throw around though..

Shas'vre + TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.) By no means will I tout this as "the bestest stragedy everrr...but I certainly will be trying it out against MEQ armies.

Don't bother with twin-linked weapons if your suits are already at BS4 or 5. You are better off to stick a fusion gun on and have three high power shots from each suit at close range.

Don't bother with twin-linked weapons if your suits are already at BS4 or 5. You are better off to stick a fusion gun on and have three high power shots from each suit at close range.

It would be only 2 still as they can't take a multitraker and a targeting array hence why he's gone for a twinlinked weapon...

FlingitNow wrote:

Don't bother with twin-linked weapons if your suits are already at BS4 or 5. You are better off to stick a fusion gun on and have three high power shots from each suit at close range.

It would be only 2 still as they can't take a multitraker and a targeting array hence why he's gone for a twinlinked weapon...

unless its on an HQ squad thats running HW Multis

True but the example wasn't using the HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.

FlingitNow wrote:True but the example wasn't using the HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.

good catch i concur then

FlingitNow wrote:True but the example wasn't using the HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.

FlingitNow...think about what you are posting...
Yes, the team leader is an additional 5 points that allows for the taking of hardwired Target Lock/Drone Controller.

Make them a Shas'vre and add in a Multitracker...and you can equip a special issue weapon such as the lovely Cycolin Ion Blaster or Airburst. Frag.

Both of those are very useful in an anti-MEQ role (which is what I posted.)

Deep-strike within rapid fire range with twin-linked BS 5 plasmas (3 dead MEQ) along with CIB you have another 1-2 dead Marines.

Against GEQ, twin-linked Burst cannons with AFP at BS5...9 S5 AP5 shots along with a S4 AP5 Large Blast, all with an 18" range. (you can do the math on the amount of dead Guardsmen)

[[Note: I present this simply as an interesting build, and something I will have to test out. Not the "end all" of Tau deepstriking kicka$$]]

Shas'vre + TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.

This is the example you used. No mention of spec issue wargear you were talking about twin-lionked plasmas and hence why I said the shas'vre was redundant. Team leader allows you to give him a multitraker, TL and drone controller. Just not the spec issue wargear.

That was my point yeah upgrade him to the vre if you want the cyclic ion blaster and or AFP, but I tend to stick those on my commander if I take them (big fan of the AFP).

FlingitNow wrote:

Shas'vre + TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.

This is the example you used. No mention of spec issue wargear you were talking about twin-lionked plasmas and hence why I said the shas'vre was redundant. Team leader allows you to give him a multitraker, TL and drone controller. Just not the spec issue wargear.

That was my point yeah upgrade him to the vre if you want the cyclic ion blaster and or AFP, but I tend to stick those on my commander if I take them (big fan of the AFP).

Seems that this build is better suited for a Farsight army. Farsight + Bodyguards, HQ squad, + 3 Crisis teams.
With targetting arrays, all fire at BS4+, at BS5 with Markerlights.

HQ:


[783 points]
- O'Shovah (170)
-Bodyguard (245) Hard-wired Targetting Arrays (35) Hardwired Multitracker (35) Hardwired Drone Controller (0) Marker Drones (60)
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles, Flamer (238)

[317 points]
- Shas'el (50) Hard-wired Targetting Arrays(5) Hard-wired Multitracker (5) Hard-wired Drone Controller (0) Marker Drones (60)
Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (18) CIB (15)
-Bodyguard (70) Hard-wired Targetting Array(10) Hard-wired Multitracker (10) Twin-linked Missile Pod (36) AFP (20) Burst Cannon (8)

Throw in a squad of footslogging Pathfinders (have their transport take a squad of Fire Warriors after they arrive), and two squads of Fire Warriors. You'll have a playable anti-MEQ army that can still put a hurting on GEQ. They'll be highly mobile, and able to claim objectives (as long as you babysit the two squads of Fire Warriors in transports.)

You forgot to put targeting arrays on the Shas'vre which surely i sthe whole point of taing them? But yeah that could work. Would be low on scoring though... lus very low on anti-tank and anti-transport.

FlingitNow wrote:You forgot to put targeting arrays on the Shas'vre which surely i sthe whole point of taing them? But yeah that could work. Would be low on scoring though... lus very low on anti-tank and anti-transport.

Ah, nice catch. I meant to put Targetting Array, not Target Lock (which is useless in 5e).

[corrected]

It could possibly have 4 scoring units (4 squads of 6 Firewarriors), that would have to be babysat like mad. A squad of Pathfinders would be needed as well to allow rerolling for Deep Strike rolls.

Anti-transport is covered by the 7 twin-linked Plasma Rifles at BS5 plus O'Shovah's 1 Plasma Rifle as well as the Dawn Blade which rolls 2d6+5 against vehicles. For the other squad it is covered by a twin-linked Fusion Blaster, as well as 2 twin-linked Missile Pods at BS5.

Against tanks, (think AV13/14) the list is more limited to the twin-linked Fusion Blaster at BS5, and OShovah's Dawn Blade at WS5. You could squeeze this all into a 1500 list, and have a Tau list that would *have* to focus on wiping out the enemy as quick as possible. The 3+ armor saves help, but if a few points are left over then the addition of a few shield drones to each squad would be useful.

I find markerlights far more useful for stripping cover saves than boosting BS. 3 TL PR at BS 3 in RF range with no cover saves out performs 3 TL PR at BS 5 /w Cover saves.

Also, your example can be exceptionally abused by even a single demolisher cannon. Against something like the SW list that shoots 21 krak missiles a round, the Farsight bomb is fairly easily diffused, especially without shield drones.

Also, I believe you'll find that the vast majority of players and tournament organizers disagree with you about the target lock doing nothing, including the INAT FAQ

Kroot Loops wrote:I find markerlights far more useful for stripping cover saves than boosting BS. 3 TL PR at BS 3 in RF range with no cover saves out performs 3 TL PR at BS 5 /w Cover saves.

Deep Strike the units within Rapid Fire range (Pathfinders allow a reroll in case of a mishap due to being too close), boost BS to BS5. 7 TL PR at BS5 without cover saves outperforms 7 BS4 without cover saves.

If the unit is in cover, than the idea of Deep Striking within Rapid Fire range is probably out of the question anyways.

Kroot Loops wrote:Also, your example can be exceptionally abused by even a single demolisher cannon. Against something like the SW list that shoots 21 krak missiles a round, the Farsight bomb is fairly easily diffused, especially without shield drones.

Exactly. Every list has it's counter, I just found it to be interesting, and something I want to give a shot.

Kroot Loops wrote:Also, I believe you'll find that the vast majority of players and tournament organizers disagree with you about the target lock doing nothing, including the INAT FAQ

RAW, they do nothing in 5e...but you are correct. Regardless, I meant "Targetting Array"

The Farsight bomb can be great fun, the rare times I break it out I tend to do seven helios suits, HWMT, HWDC, Targeting Arrays and 14 shield drones. It wrecks things, but you have to realize they're half of a 2000 point army. If it gets taken out, game over.

It works best against other lists that has a simular 'eggs all in one basket' kind of set up, like 2x Nob Bikers lists.

I've lost track though, FW BS?

RAW, they do nothing in 5e...but you are correct. Regardless, I meant "Targetting Array"

RAW has it's uses, but this falls in the same category as the 'Mawloc can't deepstrike on another unit' idiocy.

I mean, for crying out loud, the Hazard Suit rules were released This Month with target lock as one of it's wargear options.

I was reading this thread earlier, and someone mentioned 'cycling weapon racks' on Crisis suits, and how there isn't anything like that in the game, but there is:

Obliterators!

I wouldn't mind if Crisis suits had a rule similar to Obliterator weapons, it would make them a lot more useful in a 'crisis,' so it could still be pretty fluffy. Would it really be that game breaking if this, usually mega-expensive, unit had access to all of it's weapon options? Leave the air-burst grenades and cylic-ion guns for the HQ though.

Also, FW with BS 4 would be a little nuts. I'm happy with it just on the Etheral body guard guys, but they should have a 'counts as troops' rule. And FW really need a way to shoot marker lights after moving. I really liked the addition of more marker light stuff when the newest codex came out, as that was something very unique to the army.